New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[ganonford]

Once again, I did some reading to help our cause. Turns out that follicles are located approx. 1.5 to 2 mm below scalp surface. So if you reliably wanna induce wounds there, you actually would have to get a 1.5mm dermaroller. Anyone brave enough for a 1.5mm one?

Well, that's exactly what the study says, 1.5 mm. So you'll have to bite the bullet and go for it.

 

[resu]

I will try with castol oil which apparently according to studies is also a PGE2 booster.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11263183

 

[odalbak]

Anyone brave enough for a 1.5mm one?

benjt, not all dermarollers are similar. Read this test. The dermaroller in the face bleeding video seems to be of the 540 type. The bad one.
http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

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This Australian fool posted a video about it in 2008. He applies minoxidil straight after using a 0.75mm DR. Very minimal following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk

 

[squeegee]

benjt, not all dermarollers are similar. Read this test. The dermaroller in the face bleeding video seems to be of the 540 type. The bad one.
http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

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This Australian fool posted a video about it in 2008. He applies minoxidil straight after using a 0.75mm DR. Very minimal following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk

You will still bleed no matters the quality. 1.5 mm is deep enough to bleed. In the video, the witch is using 2.00mm so.. yeah.. and the face is probably more prone to bleed ..everybody cut themselves shaving their face? it ****ing bleeds!.. way more vascular.. As soon as you apply pressure and roll it a few times.. you will bleed. Bleeding is alright.. just wipe it after and make sure the roller goes in rubbing alcohol as often as possible. Female bleeds once a month and they don't make a big deal about it :woot:

 

[benjt]

Thanks guys for the heads up. I actually ordered one of those 540 rollers and just cancelled it.

Even though I'm quite not sure if the review was 100% honest as it came to the conclusion that the product of the reviewer is the best... still, the photos were quite convincing, and their product is basically the same price anyway. Only downside is that I cannot order until Aug 23rd, as their shop is closed till then.


Indeed, I do have some high hopes for dermarolling itself, i.e. w/o any topicals applied. Anecdotal evidence appeared time and again where people got some wounds on their head and regrew all hair, without any drugs whatsoever. Time will tell.

 

[Jacob]

You will still bleed no matters the quality. 1.5 mm is deep enough to bleed. In the video, the witch is using 2.00mm so.. yeah.. and the face is probably more prone to bleed ..everybody cut themselves shaving their face? it ****ing bleeds!.. way more vascular.. As soon as you apply pressure and roll it a few times.. you will bleed. Bleeding is alright.. just wipe it after and make sure the roller goes in rubbing alcohol as often as possible. Female bleeds once a month and they don't make a big deal about it :woot:

Ah....any females in the barracks there Squeegee? lol

 

[squeegee]

Ah....any females in the barracks there Squeegee? lol

LOL!!!!!! :salut:

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For everybody on here..I use the derma-roller once a week every Friday, 1.5mm. I use 5% Minoxidil with 4% Miconazole every other days. I also apply D-Ribose with Aloe vera when I go to bed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3047922/
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2004/0127428.html

Also take a ****load of supplements to boost collagen repair, Vitamin C with L-Lysine/L-Proline , MSM and Silica to name a few.

 

[odalbak]

Thanks for sharing your secrets squeegee and good luck. Let us all keep each other informed of our progress ! :grouphug:

 

[squeegee]

forgot to mention that I will also add and start .25mm on week-days prior to topicals. Better absorption.

 

[Chelaxing]

do you guys know if we are supposed to use anti-inflammatory agents like Nizoral Shampoo while using the dermaroller or does that defeat the purpose?

 

[odalbak]

Who really knows the answer? I won't stop using nizoral.

The curious thing about the dermaroller as a concept for hair loss is that we'll try to fight an inflammation process with another inflammation process…

 

[mj9]

I use a 0.5mm roller every other day..... Apparently anything less is useless!

However, it also depends on area of your body (thickness of skin). Considering the skin on your scalp is fairly thin, maybe smaller needles might also work.

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Maybe. But this increase is spectacular if we look at their results.

On the other hand the guy that grew his hair back in 1986 after burning his scalp didn't use Minox…
http://www.bmj.com/content/293/6562/1645.2

Anyway, we do need people trying dermarolling alone.

Wow! Lets burn our scalps!

 

[benjt]

@odalbak:
No, we're not fighting inflammation with inflammation here.
a) we're fighting the consequences of inflammation that is already over, i.e. in the areas where the collagen has already thickened up. We're not fighting inflammation per se, but just its effects.
b) wounding is inherently different from inflammation. The dermarollers are supposed to induce wounding. Inflammation around the wounds is only a "side effect" and not useful for our cause; the wounding is, though.

@mj9:
I doubt that even 0.5mm will have any effect. I read (in a non-scientific source; I think it was on one of the derma roller websites) that the skin on your head is approx. 1.5 mm thick. After fibrosis has completed, it might even gain in thickness, though I don't know how much. 1.5 mm seems to be a pain in the arse to use though, which is why my first roller will be 0.75 mm to get used to it, and then I'll switch to 1 mm once the first is no longer useable.

@chelaxing:
Continue usage of nizoral. It will not counteract the dermarolling. On the contrary, the same as with minoxidil might happen: Better delivery. But be very cautious; do not apply nizoral within 24 hours of dermarolling, as it might get absorbed systemically!

@Squeegee:
Just take care that you dont get systemic absorption of minoxidil... my side effects still haven't disappeared, and I'm off that stuff now for two months.

 

[hellouser]

I think timing is critical when introducing an anti-inflammatory.

Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Wound-Induced Hair Follicle Neogenesis through the Receptor, Gpr44

Now let's look at the charts provided in the study, specifically picture d,
View attachment 21143
We can clearly see that the critical point is day 5 when PGD2 starts to rise after wounding and day 8 is when the good prostaglandins PDGE/F start to dwindle and they seem to go back to their "baseline" levels (for us boldies, that mean pdg2 probably back to its f****g :devil: male pattern baldness level ) at day 15-ish.

I think that is (day 5 and after) where you should aim with your nizoral, PGD2 blocker (possible topical EGCG, Resveratrol, etc) and keep boosting fgf9 through PGE2 (possibly minoxidil, castor oil, etc). I also think such treatment pattern is at the heart of follica's recent patent for hair loss. I would also add calcipotriol throughout the whole process to keep boosting Wnt throughout the cycle, i've had incredible amount of brand new terminal hair using it (diffuse pattern filling in), and i decided to combine it with the cheese grater thingy. The study posted in this thread used 7 day cycles and they got somewhat decent results but looking at the studies, It seems critical (from what i have researched) to keep longer windows between wounding sessions, I would personally advocate 10 days to two weeks minimum, as to not keep the scalp in a constant state of pro-inflammation and allow full cycle WIHN. I do believe that extensive wounding is necessary, like serious bad S**t crazy bleeding with no less than a 1.5mm grater 8O.

Contributions like this are the reason why I keep coming back to the forums. GREAT info! Thank you!

 

[donyell]

PrincessRambo right now I am using daivobet gel (calcipitriol, betamethasone, castor oil carrier), as well as sesa oil and coconut oil twice a week..im using it after minoxidil id say on 3rd and 6th day after wounding. What you think of that?

 

[resu]

I thought about vitD as well, why not dump some Calcipotriene? Also L'Oreal Neogenic instead of using minoxidil for those that don't plan on using minoxidil.

 

[donyell]

Wow man that is some awesome info, thanks a lot! This is my plan (dermaroll, minoxidil, daivobet and more) and I will stick with it and make a log to document my results).

 

[squeegee]

Use of minoxidil for wound healing
Abstract
A method for the promotion or acceleration of wound healing by a treatment with minoxidil is disclosed. The minoxidial can be administered by topical application, oral administration, injection or any combination thereof. Treatment with minoxidil is effective for promoting the migration of epithelial cells in a wound or in tissues such as cornea and the like. Methods for identifying binding sites for minoxidil in cells based on their affinity for the compound in attachment or chemotactic assays are described.

http://www.google.com/patents/US4912111

Action of papain, sugar, minoxidil, and glucan on excisional wounds in rats


Abstract

Four topical drugs were studied with regard to their ability to promote healing of open wounds in 60 Wistar rats. Five study groups were defined. Four of the five groups received one of the following substances: papain, sugar, minoxidil, or glucan. The fifth group or control group received saline solution (NaCl, 0.9%). An experimental model with wound standardization (6 × 3.5 cm) was used. The raw area and new epithelium were quantified in each rat by taking photographs from which planimetry was performed. The closure of the first lesion occurred on the 49th postoperative day. Quantitative assessment of collagen deposition was performed using image analyzing software on slides stained with picrosirius and observed under polarized light. Epithelium formation was greatest in the minoxidil group, followed (in decreasing order) by the sugar, papain, control, and glucan groups. Significant differences in collagen deposition were observed among all the groups. The greatest amount of collagen was quantified in the glucan group, followed (in decreasing order) by the sugar, minoxidil, papain, and control groups. This data and possible mechanisms for the interference of each substance in wound healing are considered.


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[odalbak]

I would personally advocate 10 days to two weeks minimum, as to not keep the scalp in a constant state of pro-inflammation and allow full cycle WIHN.

Doesn't the length of the wound-induced hair neogenesis cycle depend on the extent (depth) of the wounding? Isn't that also true regarding the 5 day high PGD2 period?



What recovery ointment will you guys use after applying the dermaroller?

How come the dermaroller study doesn't mention any shed amongst the minoxidil group?

 

[supermusic]

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/41529-Dermaroller-Minoxidil-Dangerous