New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[odalbak]

I can imagine 24 hour wait isn't enough to avoid minoxidil entering the bloodstream substantially. I'm pretty sure it was random guess from the Indian dermaroller team.

 

[hellouser]

I mean, look at the study you yourself posted about the guy that barbecued his head un-intentionally and got full regrowth in that area :woot:

LMAO!!!! I haven't had a laugh in a while, but this was comedy gold.

 

[squeegee]

I just bought a 2.5mm derma-roller to add to the trial. go deep or go home.

 

[hellouser]

I just bought a 2.5mm derma-roller to add to the trial. go deep or go home.

Holy sh*t.

Let us know how it goes with progress and bleeding. Can you take some pictures after you dermaroll so we can get an idea of what to follow should you get results?

Thanks!

 

[squeegee]

Holy sh*t.

Let us know how it goes with progress and bleeding. Can you take some pictures after you dermaroll so we can get an idea of what to follow should you get results?

Thanks!

I won't this week-end.. but I will ASAP.. I am working on Saturday.. doing security and traffic for an Airshow.. but I want to show you guys how I bleed already with the 1.5mm. lol .. Let's get these dead cells back in business. For me Androgen Alopecia is nothing but the skin in Ischemic state.. Skin is an organ just like your heart.. never forget that. There is so many connections with male pattern baldness and Prostate Cancer and Cardiovascular diseases.. they all have the same thing in common, Necrosis, apoptosis, Hypoxia and high androgen receptors activity. Please everyone, contribute and put something in application.

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Holy sh*t.

Let us know how it goes with progress and bleeding. Can you take some pictures after you dermaroll so we can get an idea of what to follow should you get results?

Thanks!

I won't this week-end.. but I will ASAP.. I am working on Saturday.. doing security and traffic for an Airshow.. but I want to show you guys how I bleed already with the 1.5mm. lol .. Let's get these dead cells back in business. For me Androgen Alopecia is nothing but the skin in Ischemic state.. Skin is an organ just like your heart.. never forget that. There is so many connections with male pattern baldness and Prostate Cancer and Cardiovascular diseases.. they all have the same thing in common, Necrosis, apoptosis, Hypoxia and high androgen receptors activity.

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PURPOSE: To evaluate the influence of minoxidil, a well known vasodilator, on ischemic flap necrosis prevention in rats. METHODS: Ventral cutaneous flaps, measuring 8x4cm, were designed in 20 Wistar rats based on the right cranial epigastric artery. In the experiment group, 50 mg/kg/day of minoxidil sulfate was administered by orogastric tube and the same amount of saline solution was administered to the control group. Such procedure was initiated 24h before surgery and kept once a day through the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] postoperative day. Microcirculation was evaluated with laser fluxometry 24h before surgical procedure, at immediate postoperative and at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] postoperative day. Flap necrosis area was evaluated by 2 methods: planimetry and weight/paper ratio. RESULTS: A significant flow increase in distal and medial extremity at M1 (medial point 1) (p=0,0484) was observed in the experiment group. There was significant difference in flap necrosis prevention in the experiment group (p=0,0433), although after necrosis took place there was no significant difference in necrosis size. (p=0,1051 and p=0,2799). CONCLUSION: Minoxidil sulfate is effective in avoiding necrosis in ischemic flaps, but after necrosis is present there is no difference in survival area between experimental and control groups.
Keywords : Surgical Flaps; Vasodilator Agents; Minoxidil; Wound Healing; Rats.

 

[hellouser]

PURPOSE: To evaluate the influence of minoxidil, a well known vasodilator, on ischemic flap necrosis prevention in rats. METHODS: Ventral cutaneous flaps, measuring 8x4cm, were designed in 20 Wistar rats based on the right cranial epigastric artery. In the experiment group, 50 mg/kg/day of minoxidil sulfate was administered by orogastric tube and the same amount of saline solution was administered to the control group. Such procedure was initiated 24h before surgery and kept once a day through the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] postoperative day. Microcirculation was evaluated with laser fluxometry 24h before surgical procedure, at immediate postoperative and at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] postoperative day. Flap necrosis area was evaluated by 2 methods: planimetry and weight/paper ratio. RESULTS: A significant flow increase in distal and medial extremity at M1 (medial point 1) (p=0,0484) was observed in the experiment group. There was significant difference in flap necrosis prevention in the experiment group (p=0,0433), although after necrosis took place there was no significant difference in necrosis size. (p=0,1051 and p=0,2799). CONCLUSION: Minoxidil sulfate is effective in avoiding necrosis in ischemic flaps, but after necrosis is present there is no difference in survival area between experimental and control groups.
Keywords : Surgical Flaps; Vasodilator Agents; Minoxidil; Wound Healing; Rats.

You can get Minoxidil Sulphate in raw powder form from Kane: http://www.thekaneshop.com/index.php/growth-stimulators/minoxidil-sulphate-50g.html

Preparation is easy: mix with ethanol/propylene glycol until its completely dissolved. 5% dose would mean to take 50mg and mix into 0.7ml of ethanol and 0.3ml of propylene glycol. For ethanol, use Everclear at 190 Proof (95%) and it will work as the alcohol that penetrates the skin. PG will slow down the drying process. minoxidil sulphate is apparently more effective than regular minoxidil.

 

[odalbak]

Looking back it's legitimate but pretty ironic we're getting so enthusiastic about the dermaroller, as someone already mentioned positive results 4 years ago.

"I know a guy who has started using a Scalproller as part of his daily regime, feels he's seeing a really good response using it with 2% minoxidil, swears by it! Early days but so far he's had no side effects which he is loving! (Irritation was a major prob)"

In summer 2011, Trex mentioned using a 1.0mm, "I use it twice day before minoxidil and spironolactone. Its really not a big deal. I have pushed so hard that blood come out of the spots." No more details of results unfortunately.

Jacob (eagle icon) used it as well seemingly at that time.

"Thunderbass" on btt mentioned having no results after 8 months use in 2011, but he left no details about pin lengths or frequency of use, minoxidil or no minoxidil…

 

[ganonford]

I found a guy in hlh who was doing something very similar to the study. Of course, like many before and after him, he though he was just improving absorption. Anyway, he said he was getting amazing results to, but he never posted pics, and one day he just disappeared...

 

[squeegee]

You need to go deep and pretty much hurt yourself to get results. It is just like a reset button. Stay focus and positive and put something in application! Derma-roller is cheap as ****.

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article...lume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;aulast=Dhurat

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Looking back it's legitimate but pretty ironic we're getting so enthusiastic about the dermaroller, as someone already mentioned positive results 4 years ago.

"I know a guy who has started using a Scalproller as part of his daily regime, feels he's seeing a really good response using it with 2% minoxidil, swears by it! Early days but so far he's had no side effects which he is loving! (Irritation was a major prob)"

In summer 2011, Trex mentioned using a 1.0mm, "I use it twice day before minoxidil and spironolactone. Its really not a big deal. I have pushed so hard that blood come out of the spots." No more details of results unfortunately.

Jacob (eagle icon) used it as well seemingly at that time.

"Thunderbass" on btt mentioned having no results after 8 months use in 2011, but he left no details about pin lengths or frequency of use, minoxidil or no minoxidil…

WTF where is Jacob anyways? and wtf happened to Bryan and Cassin? Benjit get a derma roller with real mm on it. stop being a pussy lol.. Everybody. log on Amazon.com or ebay and get a ****ing roller.. go buy some rubbing alcohol and do your homework!

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LMAO!!!! I haven't had a laugh in a while, but this was comedy gold.

Totally Princess! Impressive results!!

 

[odalbak]

The wounds that appear to cause the hair regrowth in the mice are similar to a common dermatological treatment known as dermabrasion, Cotsarelis said. In dermabrasion, layers of skin are scraped off and healing begins. So, why not start treating balding people with dermabrasion on their heads? Cotsarelis -- who is forming a company to explore ways to develop the treatment for human use -- cautioned that it's not quite that easy. (abcnews; 2007)

Cotzarelis is a giant in dermatology, but a dwarf in diy…

Now that i think of it, 10 years ago a guy I met told me he kept all his hair by scratching his scalp deep and vigorously with his fingernails. He said "in the beginning you'll lose some of your thin hair but after a while new hair will appear". He looked so sure about his method that I thought of giving a try but after seeing so many hairs in my hand I immediately gave up. Maybe he was right after all.

 

[Armando Jose]

the post is getting very interesting.
According to my theory of the problems of "stagnation" of oxidized sebum, the dermaroller does not occur this process and help, no doubt, to come out all the sebum that is inside the pilosebaceous follicle.
On the other hand I have seen cases where the derma abrasion hair has managed to appear again, one of them in the case of the beard, and was simply sanded face. I do not advise anyone for truly significant injuries occurred, but it appeared the beard he wanted.
Another issue is that different dermo abrasion new hair appears on the scalp, I remember a woman who testified that it was possible after using salt crystals to produce small wounds.
Personally I think it is better to develop processes or techniques to stop the progression of hair loss rather than trying to recover it ... sadly fallen hair for years is irrecoverable by natural means. As thinking that the hair only originates in the fetus during pregnancy, when biological processes are 100% ready, ..., there is no appearance of new hair after birth., So we think that is a very complicated

 

[squeegee]

the post is getting very interesting.
According to my theory of the problems of "stagnation" of oxidized sebum, the dermaroller does not occur this process and help, no doubt, to come out all the sebum that is inside the pilosebaceous follicle.
On the other hand I have seen cases where the derma abrasion hair has managed to appear again, one of them in the case of the beard, and was simply sanded face. I do not advise anyone for truly significant injuries occurred, but it appeared the beard he wanted.
Another issue is that different dermo abrasion new hair appears on the scalp, I remember a woman who testified that it was possible after using salt crystals to produce small wounds.
Personally I think it is better to develop processes or techniques to stop the progression of hair loss rather than trying to recover it ... sadly fallen hair for years is irrecoverable by natural means. As thinking that the hair only originates in the fetus during pregnancy, when biological processes are 100% ready, ..., there is no appearance of new hair after birth., So we think that is a very complicated

Armando!
Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells.

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/44478#SEC3

 

[Chelaxing]

if this indeed generates new follicles, won't the new follicles be destroyed by DHT like the old follicles? or can we just continue to dermaroll and generate new follicles for life :hairy: ???

 

[hellouser]

if this indeed generates new follicles, won't the new follicles be destroyed by DHT like the old follicles? or can we just continue to dermaroll and generate new follicles for life :hairy: ???

It would be a long time before the new hairs would exhibit the same DHT ridden problems as your current hair. Either way, you could always maintain the new and old hair by continuing dermarolling by inducing the WNT proteins along with Minoxidil. If this proves to be a good solution, we could either regrow all or some of our hair, combine with an hair transplant and maintain, or regrow enough and wait for Replicel/Histogen... this opens open a wide range of options for us.

 

[odalbak]

Anecdotal evidence have shown again and again that bald people can generate brand new terminal follicle after some accidental freaky wounding.

Apart from the bbq guy and Cotzarelis mice, what anecdotal evidence have you heard of? I'm not challenging you, just curious.

 

[hellouser]

Apart from the bbq guy and Cotzarelis mice, what anecdotal evidence have you heard of? I'm not challenging you, just curious.

There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.

EDIT:

Found the photos (though my source was different)

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/72075/Lasers_Cause_Hair_Growth_in_Ta.html

Here's what one person had to say about lasers on the skin:

The area of the scapula is not due to receive hair on women. On the other hand many men have it.

The risk of hairs stimulated by the laser, increases when the sessions are recurrent.

Studies show that injuries (any type) long, induce hair growth in the area.
Have studied many types of injuries that produce this stimulation. As an example, the side of the back that bears the burden of bags. Or the Spanish carriers shoulder yet another burden to bear "sacred". Or that of girls who self-injure themselves by a disturbance in behavior.

 

[hellouser]

Many, just search google for localized acquired hypertrichosis

http://www.hypertrichosis.com/hypertrichosis-causes/hypertrichosis-injury-induced.shtml



Here is an example of such case
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2625898/?page=2

In my own experience I remember when we removed the cast from my brother like 20 years ago, it was funny to see a little 6 year old with one hairy arm.:woot:

Your findings mirror mine! My god, we are SO close to a good solution!

 

[hellouser]

Now thinking about it, I wonder if the pattern observed for male pattern baldness is some consequence of the scalp in the hairy part of the male pattern head being always (from cradle to grave) in contact stimilus during sleep, thus generating some kind of weak localized hypertrichosis that somehow offset the effect of androgens. I mean it's been shown that all hair are suceptible to dht, but somehow these ones remains strong throughout our entire lives... hummm

Maybe, but I doubt it, since that wouldn't really explain diffuse thinners versus typically 'M' pattern receding hairlines as well as crown only.

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Found an article from 1988 on 'The Psoriatic Epidermal Lesion and Anagen Hair Growth May Share the Same "Switch-on" Mechanism'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590431/pdf/yjbm00077-0087.pdf

This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.

 

[Kirby]

This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.

Part of me, the optimistic side, believes that the 'cure' is out there already, but just needs piecing together.

Possibly.

 

[hellouser]

Part of me, the optimistic side, believes that the 'cure' is out there already, but just needs piecing together.

Possibly.

Dr. Roland Lauster. He's had the cure for years. However....

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Very interesting, I will sink my teeth into that pdf now... here is a clear example of wound induced hair growth

http://www.hindawi.com/crim/pediatrics/2012/592092/

You are right hellhouser... it's shocking that they have been knowing about this stuff for ever and are looking the other way, I guess, without not sounding too conspiracy theorist, if you can't monetize, why the hell bother right? I mean look at Cotsarelis's patent you posted on the first page of this thread:
I mean, WTF, dermaroller much? It's like curcumin, looking at pubmed, there are thousands of studies showing it's health benefit ranging to fighting HIV, to combat alzeimer's, parkinson's, all sorts of nasty cancers, it even freaking works better than prozac at fighting depression in some studies (without the nasty side effects), I mean, that tiny molecule can almost f***g print money, but no... they don't care about conducting large trials, get it fda approved because it's cheap, unpatentable and available even in Broken Butt, North Dakota...

Great find!

What worries me, or potentially excites me, is threshold. Supoose wounding DOES regrow terminal hair on the scalp.

1) Does it have a ceiling?
2) Would we basically just continue dermarolling/wounding until we're satisfied?
3) How long do these hair last?
4) Would they grow through just one cycle or continue growing with or without continued wounding?

I hope the answers are in our favour, but I guess we'll soon find out.

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I've done some further reading... found a buttload of information... The first article is REALLY interesting especially with the results photo:

Skin wound healing and hair growth device
Inventors Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:

Then I found this article:

Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing

A 5-week-long study further demonstrated that dextran hydrogels promote complete skin regeneration with new hair growth

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/20976/F7.expansion.html

And another wounding article:

Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair

The role of epithelial stem cells in wounding-induced hair follicle neogenesis. Following re-epithelialization of large full-thickness wounds, new hair follicles develop from the basal cells of the wound epidermis via a process of embryonic-like neogenesis.

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1084952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers

Besides hair regeneration, the circuit is triggered by skin injury to stimulate migration of the bulge cells to the wounded area to differentiate into epidermal cells, thereby regenerating epidermis over the wounded skin.

Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/...r-follicles-revealed-by-stanford-researchers/

An unrelated article:
Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned