Oral Steroid Made My Hair Grow Back Thicker!

[ChemHead]

How do you explain the studies showing 80-90% of people showing improvements or atleast maintenance in hair density and count when taking finasteride after 1-2 years, most people ride out the shed and then notice significant improvements after a year on finasteride, not 2-3 weeks

People are genetically different. While some people may have higher genetic expression of enzymes in certain areas of the body, others may be much lower in that particular enzymatic expression. So, an example of a scenario which might account for your concern is that perhaps some of those 80-90% of people have lower expression of aromatase or, perhaps, lower expression of estrogen receptors in areas that make their hypothalamus less likely to experience increased estrogenic activity due to the consequential increase in testosterone due to 5AR antagonism.

Let's look at the opposite scenario. Let's say that a person has high estrogen receptor expression and high aromatase expression in all the wrong places and little to none in the scalp. Now give them a 5AR antagonist. In the scalp, 5AR is bound and there is a local increase in testosterone and a modest increase in its metabolism to estrogens via aromatase. In other areas of the body (but, most importantly, the hypothalamus), there is a much higher increase in metabolism to estrogens relative to the scalp. So, what does this mean? The modest increase in estrogenic activity in the scalp is much lower than the increase in estrogenic activity in other tissues and the hypothalamus. Because of this, hypothalamic downregulation of steroid synthesis will occur well before you are able to experience significant benefits to hair growth and hypothalamic downregulation of steroid synthesis will result in even lower level of estrogenic activity in the scalp that if that person had never take a 5AR antagonist. And this is why some people may possibly experience shedding that simply just gets worse rather than improving.

This is also the reason why some people experience gynecomastia quite easily while others don't. The ones that experience it naturally likely have high aromatase expression and high estrogen receptor expression in breast tissue, but low estrogen receptor and/or low aromatase expression in the other areas of the body (which leads to lower overall estrogens in serum) and lower expression in the hypothalamus. So, the beast tissue gets tons of estrogenic activity, but the hypothalamus is "happy" with its level of estrogenic activity and doesn't intervene to lower steroid synthesis to reduce estrogenic activity.

In my own body, for example, I likely have quite low aromatase expression and/or estrogen receptor expression in breast tissue because even with a supraphysiological concentration of testosterone injected exogenously, I do not experience estrogenic side effects in breast tissue and even if I did, my hypothalamus has sufficient estrogen receptor expression and aromatase expression that it will cut steroid synthesis when approaching estrogenic activity too high for the satisfaction of the hypothalamic feedback mechanism.

So, the explanation is that everyone has a uniquely different genetic expression of all types of enzymes in various tissues and, because of this, can each react much differently to different types of drugs that target these enzymes.

 

[Harleyj888]

People are genetically different. While some people may have higher genetic expression of enzymes in certain areas of the body, others may be much lower in that particular enzymatic expression. So, an example of a scenario which might account for your concern is that perhaps some of those 80-90% of people have lower expression of aromatase or, perhaps, lower expression of estrogen receptors in areas that make their hypothalamus less likely to experience increased estrogenic activity due to the consequential increase in testosterone due to 5AR antagonism.

Let's look at the opposite scenario. Let's say that a person has high estrogen receptor expression and high aromatase expression in all the wrong places and little to none in the scalp. Now give them a 5AR antagonist. In the scalp, 5AR is bound and there is a local increase in testosterone and a modest increase in its metabolism to estrogens via aromatase. In other areas of the body (but, most importantly, the hypothalamus), there is a much higher increase in metabolism to estrogens relative to the scalp. So, what does this mean? The modest increase in estrogenic activity in the scalp is much lower than the increase in estrogenic activity in other tissues and the hypothalamus. Because of this, hypothalamic downregulation of steroid synthesis will occur well before you are able to experience significant benefits to hair growth and hypothalamic downregulation of steroid synthesis will result in even lower level of estrogenic activity in the scalp that if that person had never take a 5AR antagonist. And this is why some people may possibly experience shedding that simply just gets worse rather than improving.

This is also the reason why some people experience gynecomastia quite easily while others don't. The ones that experience it naturally likely have high aromatase expression and high estrogen receptor expression in breast tissue, but low estrogen receptor and/or low aromatase expression in the other areas of the body (which leads to lower overall estrogens in serum) and lower expression in the hypothalamus. So, the beast tissue gets tons of estrogenic activity, but the hypothalamus is "happy" with its level of estrogenic activity and doesn't intervene to lower steroid synthesis to reduce estrogenic activity.

In my own body, for example, I likely have quite low aromatase expression and/or estrogen receptor expression in breast tissue because even with a supraphysiological concentration of testosterone injected exogenously, I do not experience estrogenic side effects in breast tissue and even if I did, my hypothalamus has sufficient estrogen receptor expression and aromatase expression that it will cut steroid synthesis when approaching estrogenic activity too high for the satisfaction of the hypothalamic feedback mechanism.

So, the explanation is that everyone has a uniquely different genetic expression of all types of enzymes in various tissues and, because of this, can each react much differently to different types of drugs that target these enzymes.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, your knowledge is amazing. Do you feel this explains though the people who experience a shed first and then get the regrowth? Even dermatologists have said a lot of people shed and then experience the regrowth which doesn’t seem to line up with your theory unless aromatase expression is down regulated and then upregulated??
I definitely agree there seems to be some people on this forum who experience a never ending shed however I don’t believe shedding is necessarily to do with baldness, if excess shedding was a sign of baldness my girlfriend would have been bald a long time ago, she sheds a ridiculous amount of hair every day yet she has the thickest hair of anyone I know

 

[ChemHead]

Thanks. What do you think is the best way to reverse that to push the body out of that with proper signaling?

I've brought myself back to normal once and then foolishly experimented with finasteride again and put myself back into that state. I did this by drastic alteration of dietary intake. I eat exclusively raw, uncooked food. I eat mostly leafy greens, microgreens, and vegetables, a small amount of fruit, small amount of fats via nuts avocados, and I drink a lot of water. The idea is to get the highest micronutrient content with the least amount of digestive burden. I also fast, but when I cured myself the first time, I didn't fast. I only followed a very strict diet. However, I did do somewhat of an intermittent fast on a daily basis for around a month where I would drink only water for around 16-18 hours and then eat within a small window.

By fasting or by altering diet in the way that I have, you are giving your body the ability use less energy in the process of digestion and instead allocate that energy toward repair in the body. Long term fasting will help through autophagy, accelerating the apoptosis of senescent cells and the generation of new and the dietary change helps conserve and generate more cellular energy due to reduced digestive burden and higher nutritional value. You have to see consumption of food as an exchange of chemical energy. If I eat burger, I'm consuming something that requires a significant amount of energy expenditure in order to digest it and extract energy from it. The most ideal scenario is to eat foods that your digestive system can extract the greatest chemical energy from, while using as little of the body's own energy as possible. Broadly speaking, I say extraction of chemical energy, but more specifically, it's extraction of many different compounds in foods that are able to perform or facilitate specific essential biochemical interactions in the body.

There is a user on a PFS forum... Can't remember the name of the forum... But the user's name was "cdnuts". There is a very long thread (or multiple threads) on whatever forum it was. He was able to cure his PFS by multiple long-term fasts of around 3 weeks each. He didn't adjust his diet the way that I have, but I would say the mechanism is generally the same... Either multiple, very strict long-term fasts or adjustment of diet as I have done (or both is even better) should yield results based on my experience.

 

[ChemHead]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, your knowledge is amazing. Do you feel this explains though the people who experience a shed first and then get the regrowth? Even dermatologists have said a lot of people shed and then experience the regrowth which doesn’t seem to line up with your theory unless aromatase expression is down regulated and then upregulated??
I definitely agree there seems to be some people on this forum who experience a never ending shed however I don’t believe shedding is necessarily to do with baldness, if excess shedding was a sign of baldness my girlfriend would have been bald a long time ago, she sheds a ridiculous amount of hair every day yet she has the thickest hair of anyone I know

Regarding shedding and baldness, you are correct, shedding on its own doesn't necessarily cause balding. It's a combination of stimulation of shedding and lack of stimulation of growth. In my opinion, the most aggressive balding occurs when genetic expression is such that intracellular synthesis of DHT is high and intracellular synthesis of estrogens is low. Modulation of these two variables will define every scenario between aggressive balding and thick hair that rarely sheds. Your girlfriend very likely has a high genetic expression of intrafollicular aromatase and estrogen receptors, but has a modest expression of intrafollicular 5AR. The estrogenic activity is what stimulates the growth, strength, and quality/texture of the hair, while the androgenic activity of DHT will contribute to the shortening of the hair cycle.

Regarding the finasteride shed, this is what I believe explains the shed occurring first and then regrowth or stabilization: Taking into consideration the factors of genetic enzyme expression I've already mentioned, let's consider a factor along the lines of biochemical reaction kinetics. What happens when you take oral finasteride? The minute it enters your body, it begins to do its working binding 5AR starting in the digestive tract. It finds its way into vascular tissue and the liver and other internal organs, as well as sexual tissues. As the finasteride diffuses throughout the body, its concentration is greatest at its point of origin and the least the further it progresses toward the extremities of the body until some level of equilibration occurs and a steady concentration is reached. As an analogy, consider dripping some blue dye into a tub of water. The concentration is the highest at the point of origin where the drop of dye contacts the water and as it diffuses away from the point of origin, the concentration becomes weaker and the dye color becomes less rich or less intense. Eventually, an osmotic equilibrium is reached and the water is all one tint of blue, but before that occurred, the origin still experienced the highest concentration and the extremities experienced a lower concentration.

Now consider the same kinetics in the body. The last place a dose of finasteride reaches will be the extremities. Let's assume that the hair follicles in the scalp are one of the last extremities that a dose of finasteride will reach. As 5AR is bound in tissues closer to the origin, it's already begun to increase the concentration of testosterone or androstenedione in organs and in serum while 5AR in the hair follicles is still relatively unbound by finasteride in comparison. So, you're essentially getting an increase in serum testosterone and androstenedione concentration and those steroids are still able to be 5a-reduced in the hair follicles, temporarily resulting in an even higher concentration of intrafollicular DHT than normal. As finasteride concentration reaches a steady state and has a chance to take more effect in the extremities, the shedding should discontinue as 5AR is permanently bound to the same extent as in the rest of the body.

 

[Dope]

I've brought myself back to normal once and then foolishly experimented with finasteride again and put myself back into that state. I did this by drastic alteration of dietary intake. I eat exclusively raw, uncooked food. I eat mostly leafy greens, microgreens, and vegetables, a small amount of fruit, small amount of fats via nuts avocados, and I drink a lot of water. The idea is to get the highest micronutrient content with the least amount of digestive burden. I also fast, but when I cured myself the first time, I didn't fast. I only followed a very strict diet. However, I did do somewhat of an intermittent fast on a daily basis for around a month where I would drink only water for around 16-18 hours and then eat within a small window.

By fasting or by altering diet in the way that I have, you are giving your body the ability use less energy in the process of digestion and instead allocate that energy toward repair in the body. Long term fasting will help through autophagy, accelerating the apoptosis of senescent cells and the generation of new and the dietary change helps conserve and generate more cellular energy due to reduced digestive burden and higher nutritional value. You have to see consumption of food as an exchange of chemical energy. If I eat burger, I'm consuming something that requires a significant amount of energy expenditure in order to digest it and extract energy from it. The most ideal scenario is to eat foods that your digestive system can extract the greatest chemical energy from, while using as little of the body's own energy as possible. Broadly speaking, I say extraction of chemical energy, but more specifically, it's extraction of many different compounds in foods that are able to perform or facilitate specific essential biochemical interactions in the body.

There is a user on a PFS forum... Can't remember the name of the forum... But the user's name was "cdnuts". There is a very long thread (or multiple threads) on whatever forum it was. He was able to cure his PFS by multiple long-term fasts of around 3 weeks each. He didn't adjust his diet the way that I have, but I would say the mechanism is generally the same... Either multiple, very strict long-term fasts or adjustment of diet as I have done (or both is even better) should yield results based on my experience.

Yes CDnuts. He is still around I think on swole source and hack stasis. Do you think that eating raw vegetables is counter productive due to the anti nutrients?

Also, many people also recovered on his protocol by cycling prohormomes (androsterone, 4 andro etc) in conjunction with herbs and fasting. Do any of those prohormones alter estrogen expression that finasteride did?

 

[ChemHead]

Yes CDnuts. He is still around I think on swole source and hack stasis. Do you think that eating raw vegetables is counter productive due to the anti nutrients?

Also, many people also recovered on his protocol by cycling prohormomes (androsterone, 4 andro etc) in conjunction with herbs and fasting. Do any of those prohormones alter estrogen expression that finasteride did?

I've been eating raw for a little over 3 years and plant based for close to 5 years. I think all the worry about anti nutrients is unfounded. I actually believe these anti nutrients serve a positive function in gut health. If someone were afraid of not getting enough of a particular nutrient due to these anti nutrients, it's easy enough to simply eat a different food to get that nutrient. The proof for me is in the way I feel and the positive changes that have occurred in my body over time. Also, the last time I recovered from PFS, My hair stopped falling out completely. This is the only time my hair has ever stopped falling out without the use of any things at all. My eyes also filled on where they were previously hollow and the darkness went away completely. I looked 10 years younger within a span of a few weeks. My skin was also better than it was prior to ever taking finasteride. If only I knew what I know now when I was much younger. I likely never would have had to deal with hair loss.

But right now, I have to wait for PFS to go away until I start experiencing those types of improvements. It would be far worse, however, without the diet I consume and I'm certain that I would be permanently stuck with PFS.

Regarding the herbs and the prohormones, I think the herbs will definitely help. Prohormones I'm not so sure about. The problem is that you're trying to get your body to naturally produce as much steroid as possible. You want your steroid production to be as high as your body will naturally tolerate. You also want enzymatic and steroid receptor optimization and what I mean by that is that you want to provide a long term environment within your body that will induce changes in expression of steroid receptors and steroid metabolizing enzymes. For example, if you lead a lifestyle that causes you to have higher than optimal serum estrogen levels (through poor diet and lack of exercise, perhaps) this will cause estrogen receptor expression and aromatase expression to decrease in the areas of the body where it's most needed in order to reduce overall system burden of estrogenic activity. So, joint, skin, and hair health are a few of the things that would be noticeably affected in an effort for the body to lower it's systemic estrogenic effects. The most ideal scenario is when your overall systemic level of estrogenic activity is lower and your body can handle more. When this happens, your body will upregulate enzymes and receptors in tissues which will cause a much higher local concentration of steroid synthesis and these steroids will diffuse from high concentration to lower concentration as they move from within the cell into serum (also being metabolized along the way). So, you want specific tissues to synthesize steroids in high local concentration and you want your systemic/serum level of steroids to be a result of the bleed-off or diffusion of those locally produced steroids.

 

[neddy2016]

Tbh the whole idea of steroids making hair grow has puzzled me greatly. i haven't had any luck with any hairloss products. everything just seemed to make things worse.

Finasteride: Inflammation and faster thinning.
Dutasteride: Inflammation and faster thinning.
RU: Inflammation and faster thinning.
spironolactone: Inflammation and faster thinning.
Minoxidil: Thinner looking hair, other symptoms like joint pain and rare occasions irregular heart rate. although the last 2 developed over time.

And after all that my scalp has become a sensitive area.

Scalp Massage: Seemed like it always made my hair look thinner and thin out abit quicker. and now also gives Inflammation.
Micro-needling: Seemed like it always made my hair look thinner and thin out abit quicker. and now also gives Inflammation.

Now i am sensitive to foods and alcohol as they also give me scalp inflammation. i haven't worked out why. i had several tests done and can't find anything to explain it so far.

So the idea that maybe trying to reduce DHT or testosterone actually does more damage to me has come to mind. but it has never made any sense to me.

 

[Dope]

I've been eating raw for a little over 3 years and plant based for close to 5 years. I think all the worry about anti nutrients is unfounded. I actually believe these anti nutrients serve a positive function in gut health. If someone were afraid of not getting enough of a particular nutrient due to these anti nutrients, it's easy enough to simply eat a different food to get that nutrient. The proof for me is in the way I feel and the positive changes that have occurred in my body over time. Also, the last time I recovered from PFS, My hair stopped falling out completely. This is the only time my hair has ever stopped falling out without the use of any things at all. My eyes also filled on where they were previously hollow and the darkness went away completely. I looked 10 years younger within a span of a few weeks. My skin was also better than it was prior to ever taking finasteride. If only I knew what I know now when I was much younger. I likely never would have had to deal with hair loss.

But right now, I have to wait for PFS to go away until I start experiencing those types of improvements. It would be far worse, however, without the diet I consume and I'm certain that I would be permanently stuck with PFS.

Regarding the herbs and the prohormones, I think the herbs will definitely help. Prohormones I'm not so sure about. The problem is that you're trying to get your body to naturally produce as much steroid as possible. You want your steroid production to be as high as your body will naturally tolerate. You also want enzymatic and steroid receptor optimization and what I mean by that is that you want to provide a long term environment within your body that will induce changes in expression of steroid receptors and steroid metabolizing enzymes. For example, if you lead a lifestyle that causes you to have higher than optimal serum estrogen levels (through poor diet and lack of exercise, perhaps) this will cause estrogen receptor expression and aromatase expression to decrease in the areas of the body where it's most needed in order to reduce overall system burden of estrogenic activity. So, joint, skin, and hair health are a few of the things that would be noticeably affected in an effort for the body to lower it's systemic estrogenic effects. The most ideal scenario is when your overall systemic level of estrogenic activity is lower and your body can handle more. When this happens, your body will upregulate enzymes and receptors in tissues which will cause a much higher local concentration of steroid synthesis and these steroids will diffuse from high concentration to lower concentration as they move from within the cell into serum (also being metabolized along the way). So, you want specific tissues to synthesize steroids in high local concentration and you want your systemic/serum level of steroids to be a result of the bleed-off or diffusion of those locally produced steroids.

I wanted to add that CD nuts actually cycles his herbs meaning he he has 21+ herbs and he takes a different one each day to get the most effect from it as it seems body develops a tolerance. I don't know if this method is more beneficial or to take the herb continuously. Also, by supplying whole food components in herbal form this may help restore enzymes as whole natural vitamins and minerals are more bioavailable than synthetics.

Other methods are taking DHT derived steroids or prohormomes and basically restarting the system but by using natural PCT only instead of SERMs.

 

[partysnacks]

The most ideal scenario is to eat foods that your digestive system can extract the greatest chemical energy from, while using as little of the body's own energy as possible.

This kind of sounds like Ray Peat's philosophy. Are you a fan?

Regarding the raw diet and digestive burden - wouldn't a raw diet be the opposite of what you want for that specific purpose? By not cooking vegetables you have to rely on your body to break down everything rather than letting heat partially break down the material (cellulose fiber, etc). Cooking should help create a more efficient digestion process and can enhance certain nutrient availability.
I'm definitely not doubting the diet helped you, but I am doubting whether your purported reason is why it helped.

 

[ChemHead]

This kind of sounds like Ray Peat's philosophy. Are you a fan?

Regarding the raw diet and digestive burden - wouldn't a raw diet be the opposite of what you want for that specific purpose? By not cooking vegetables you have to rely on your body to break down everything rather than letting heat partially break down the material (cellulose fiber, etc). Cooking should help create a more efficient digestion process and can enhance certain nutrient availability.
I'm definitely not doubting the diet helped you, but I am doubting whether your purported reason is why it helped.

I definitely think that the Peat philosophy is on the right path in that the goal is to maximize cellular energy production, but I'm not really aligned with it regarding the types of food that will lead to that. I've tried the Peat style diet, but never really experienced any change, positive or negative. My current lifestyle and the way I currently eat is the only thing that has ever had any significant impact on my health. I also have no other explanation for my hair loss completely ceasing after recovering from PFS. The other times that I quit finasteride and recovered, my hair resumed it's aggressive loss and my scalp and skin were inflamed and itchy. This didn't happen the last time I recovered after having eating a raw plant diet. In fact, my skin looked better than it ever had in the past.

Something of great significance to note is also that my scalp has naturally become more elastic. Around 3 years ago, I started doing scalp massages for a couple months. My scalp was definitely fibrotic and stiff. There was very little elasticity. I managed to break it up and loosen my scalp over those couple months, but it was overall still relatively fibrotic. After a couple months, it became inconvenient, so I stopped the scalp massages. Fast forward a couple years later and my scalp is very elastic having done no scalp massages.I don't believe this is an accident. I'm certain this is from years of my consistent dietary and lifestyle habits.

Regarding cooking, yes I think cooking can help the digestive process because some food absolutely must be cooked in order to eat it.

However, my actual experience in going back and forth between eating completely raw and eating cooked food here and there has proved to me that cooked food is actually more of a burden. When I eat a cooked meal after eating months to years of only raw plants, I get tired very quickly. Depending on what I eat, my face and hands will also swell a little (not horribly) and I would guess that this is increased fluid retention due to the increased salt intake that usually comes with cooked food. I also have to sleep longer after eating cooked food. Overall, it has proven to be an energetic burden. In fact, if I eat a heavier meal where my raw plant intake is significantly lower than the cooked food intake, it will actually cause a wave of depression to come over me for 2-12 hours after the meal. This, however, may improve after I've recovered from finasteride, but it doesn't change the fact that cooked food still places a greater energetic burden on me compared to raw plants. It does indicate that my weakened body is less tolerant of energetic burdens, though.

These signs have been enough to convince me that cooked food is actually costing me energy compared to raw plants. Perhaps, and most likely, the natural enzymes within plants play a significant role in digestion. Also, there are so many natural compounds and phytochemicals of all different types in plants that have various powerful physiological effects and cooking foods essentially nullifies those. Biochemical compounds, and especially enzymes, are very delicate. By cooking food, you're getting plenty of macronutrition, but relatively little of the sensitive powerful compounds that reside in the plant naturally.

We also can't forget the role of bacteria. There are powerful chemicals created through metabolism of plant compounds via bacterial decomposition. Bacteria need the fiber in the the food you eat, not you. Your gut will be populated with a particular bacterial profile that has flourished in the environment that you've provided based on your dietary habits.

So, I very rarely eat anything other than raw plants, but I do still occasionally eat cooked food, despite the energetic burden, because it tastes good and sometimes, once or twice every few months, it's just nice to have a cooked meal.

As far as meat, I pretty much avoid it completely, but I do have it once a year.

 

[Ljpviper]

Wow, your seem very knowledgeable in the effects of external androgens, etc. I am 49 been on Avodart for like 20 years. I had recent bloodwork and my testosterone total came back at 667 scale being 250 to 1100. My free testosterone came back at 174.8 scale being 35.0 to 155.0.

Basically my levels doubled since my last blood test, that is bizarre. I have not been very active since I have an upcoming hip surgery. Only thing i did change is from brand name Avodart to generic. Is having high free T bad in anyway. Thanks again for your posts you add a lot of value to this forum.

 

[ChemHead]

Wow, your seem very knowledgeable in the effects of external androgens, etc. I am 49 been on Avodart for like 20 years. I had recent bloodwork and my testosterone total came back at 667 scale being 250 to 1100. My free testosterone came back at 174.8 scale being 35.0 to 155.0.

Basically my levels doubled since my last blood test, that is bizarre. I have not been very active since I have an upcoming hip surgery. Only thing i did change is from brand name Avodart to generic. Is having high free T bad in anyway. Thanks again for your posts you add a lot of value to this forum.

Technically, your production of testosterone is actually not higher. This might seem counterintuitive at first, but let me explain.

I will frequently use this analogy because it's the simplest and most accurate way of thinking about what is occurring when you take a 5AR antagonist like finasteride or Avodart. Imagine your production of "steroid"... just generalized term for all steroids that are being synthesized form cholesterol... Imagine your steroid production as a large flowing river where the water represents a particular steroid. Now imagine this river branches off into other (perhaps, smaller) rivers and the junction of each of these branchings represent a sort of gateway that represents a steroid metabolizing enzyme and the water of this particular branch represents a new steroid that has been metabolized from the water flowing from the larger river.

Now let's focus on a large branch that comes from one of the main rivers and this branch represents the flow of testosterone. For the sake of simplicity, let's say the testosterone river splits into two rivers downstream. One of these rivers represents estradiol and the other represents dihydrotestosterone. The junctions where the testosterone river splits into estradiol and dihydrotestosterone are represented by aromatase and 5a-reductase, respectively. Let's also assume in our analogy that we have some kind of sensor to measure the level of the river and a way to regulate that level to keep it at a certain height that is considered safe.

Now, let's say that you build a dam at the junction where the river branches into the "DHT branch". This dam represents a 5AR inhibitor like Avodart, where you are blocking the steroid flow from the testosterone river into the DHT river. When you suddenly and completely block flow to the DHT river, the level of the main river starts to back up and the level spikes in height because you have blocked off a path of flow, but the river is still flowing at the same rate it was before you blocked it off. This goes on for a short while before an engineer that is responsible for keeping that river at a safe level decides to reduce the flow of the main river in order to drop the level of the river to a safer level (an analogy for the brain or hypothalamus acting as a regulatory entity).

So consider what's happened here. The level of the river rose and it had to be brought back down as best as possible in order to make the environment safer. So, now, the level of the testosterone river may be about the same as it was before or, perhaps even a little higher, but the flow rate of the river has been decreased. The measured level (or concentration) may show that your testosterone is higher than it was before. However, there is actually less water flowing through the river now... Your body is now synthesizing less "steroid" than before even though the measured level is higher. Your total steroid throughput has been reduced because you blocked off an avenue of flow and started pooling high concentrations of steroids and your body's regulatory system compensated for that by reducing the overall flow rate.

Here's why this is unhealthy: in response the the increased concentration of certain steroids in serum, your body doesn't just reduce the synthesis of steroids to protect itself. It will also downregulate enzyme expression and receptor expression if too much activation is occurring. So, let's take estradiol as an example because it's one of those steroids your brain tightly regulates because high serum concentrations are dangerous and unhealthy.

If your body reduces aromatase expression and estrogen receptor expression in tissues that require a certain level of local synthesis (consider joints as an example of tissues that require a certain level of estrogenic activity), your body is protecting you from high serum concentrations of estrogens, but it's doing this at the expense of local or tissue specific synthesis of estrogens. So, you now have safer levels of estrogens in serum, but low levels in specialized tissues that require it. In the long run, this protects you from near-term death, but specialized tissues are not functioning optimally and you are going to age faster because of it. So, you don't die from a heart attack induced from hyperestrogenic activity in heart or vascular tissue, but it's at the expense of optimal health and function of other parts of the body. So, your body sacrifices the health of your joints in order to protect against a much bigger problem.

This is why I'm against use of steroid metabolizing enzyme inhibitors for really any problem. They cause more problems than they fix. If drug companies can develop enzyme antagonists that can target enzymes in specific tissues and nowhere else in the body, they would have some value. However, at this point, developing a drug like that seems like the wrong approach and an overcomplication. Targeting the genes that encode enzyme expression in specific tissues is a more reasonable approach and permanently solves the problem. And.. with CRISPR and quantum computing already being used today, the prospect for something like this is right at the doorstep.

edit: btw, your sudden increase in testosterone is likely due to a difference in dosage between the generic and name brand. If you're splitting larger pills, you're probably just getting a higher dosage. It's also possible (though less likely) that the generic is actually purer and, thus, more potent that the Avodart.

 

[czecha]

I've brought myself back to normal once and then foolishly experimented with finasteride again and put myself back into that state. I did this by drastic alteration of dietary intake. I eat exclusively raw, uncooked food. I eat mostly leafy greens, microgreens, and vegetables, a small amount of fruit, small amount of fats via nuts avocados, and I drink a lot of water. The idea is to get the highest micronutrient content with the least amount of digestive burden. I also fast, but when I cured myself the first time, I didn't fast. I only followed a very strict diet. However, I did do somewhat of an intermittent fast on a daily basis for around a month where I would drink only water for around 16-18 hours and then eat within a small window.

By fasting or by altering diet in the way that I have, you are giving your body the ability use less energy in the process of digestion and instead allocate that energy toward repair in the body. Long term fasting will help through autophagy, accelerating the apoptosis of senescent cells and the generation of new and the dietary change helps conserve and generate more cellular energy due to reduced digestive burden and higher nutritional value. You have to see consumption of food as an exchange of chemical energy. If I eat burger, I'm consuming something that requires a significant amount of energy expenditure in order to digest it and extract energy from it. The most ideal scenario is to eat foods that your digestive system can extract the greatest chemical energy from, while using as little of the body's own energy as possible. Broadly speaking, I say extraction of chemical energy, but more specifically, it's extraction of many different compounds in foods that are able to perform or facilitate specific essential biochemical interactions in the body.

There is a user on a PFS forum... Can't remember the name of the forum... But the user's name was "cdnuts". There is a very long thread (or multiple threads) on whatever forum it was. He was able to cure his PFS by multiple long-term fasts of around 3 weeks each. He didn't adjust his diet the way that I have, but I would say the mechanism is generally the same... Either multiple, very strict long-term fasts or adjustment of diet as I have done (or both is even better) should yield results based on my experience.

I'm interested in trying, however, my budget is kinda limited and I need at least 2,5k cal a day, I'm already lean. Any recommendations?

I do feel best when I eat like that, generally speaking, and am often tired if I eat conventionally.

What makes me doubt the efficacy of this diet is, though, that fruitarians, as far as I can tell, do not seem to age too well, generally. I think getting the odd animal proteins in might be good here and there (I am thinking liver and oysters for most micros) to avoid deficiencies? Maybe raw eggs too?

What do you think? I am also thinking of keeping fruit higher than you to support thyroid and get extra calories in.

So basically fruit and veggies in abundance, liver+oyster like once a week each, maybe a raw egg a day. Just not sure how to sustain that without turning into a skeleton. I can't fill up my trunk with veggies every single day. Not enough money.

 

[Ljpviper]

Thanks for the explanation to my question.

 

[ChemHead]

I'm interested in trying, however, my budget is kinda limited and I need at least 2,5k cal a day, I'm already lean. Any recommendations?

I do feel best when I eat like that, generally speaking, and am often tired if I eat conventionally.

What makes me doubt the efficacy of this diet is, though, that fruitarians, as far as I can tell, do not seem to age too well, generally. I think getting the odd animal proteins in might be good here and there (I am thinking liver and oysters for most micros) to avoid deficiencies? Maybe raw eggs too?

What do you think? I am also thinking of keeping fruit higher than you to support thyroid and get extra calories in.

So basically fruit and veggies in abundance, liver+oyster like once a week each, maybe a raw egg a day. Just not sure how to sustain that without turning into a skeleton. I can't fill up my trunk with veggies every single day. Not enough money.

I try to keep fruit intake as low as possible. Fruitarians look aged because sugar will accelerate aging and that's all they eat. I would only eat more fruit if it's a day that I'm going to work out or do something physical. Otherwise, it's an abundance of leafy greens, microgreens, and vegetables.

 

[Norwoody]

Can somebody post a cliff note to sum up the conclusions of this thread so far?

 

[Dope]

I try to keep fruit intake as low as possible. Fruitarians look aged because sugar will accelerate aging and that's all they eat. I would only eat more fruit if it's a day that I'm going to work out or do something physical. Otherwise, it's an abundance of leafy greens, microgreens, and vegetables.

If anavar is that much weaker androgenically than DHT, Turinabol even has a lower androgenic rating. Shouldn't this be even better for hair purposes?

turinabol androgenic ratio chart - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[ChemHead]

If anavar is that much weaker androgenically than DHT, Turinabol even has a lower androgenic rating. Shouldn't this be even better for hair purposes?

turinabol androgenic ratio chart - Google Search

www.google.com

I don't know anything about Turinabol. What makes Anavar special in context is that it can be 5a-reduced, it's non-aromatizable, and it has a higher affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone and DHT.

Because of this Anavar:

1. Acts as a competitive agonist for 5AR and competes with testosterone for 5AR metabolized. This mean less testosterone used up through metabolism to DHT and less DHT synthesized. Both are important... Less DHT, but also more testosterone available.

2. Is non-aromatizable and therefore does not compete with testosterone for the aromatase enzyme. This means local estrogen biosynthesis is not interrupted and, because Anavar is competing with testosterone for 5AR, more testosterone is available for aromatization.

3. Has high affinity for androgen receptor. This is a good thing because if it's competing with DHT for the androgen receptor, it means DHT is not binding the AR as frequently as it normally would. It also means that it's competing with testosterone for the AR and testosterone is binding even less frequently. This makes a higher concentration of testosterone available for aromatization, but also keeps aromatase expression elevated because Anavar is binding the AR.

For the record, I do not agree with how the word "androgenic" is used in this field. It's vague and has no concrete meaning. I suppose it's used to describe a steroid that induces strong genetic expression of male characteristics, but it also gets confused and obfuscated with a steroid's affinity toward the androgen receptor. Do not make the mistake of thinking that all androgens essentially do the same things except that some androgens do those things to a stronger degree than others. A steroid is essentially a trigger or switch for the execution of genetic code. Testosterone will cause a different expression of genetic code to manifest than DHT will. They're different. If testosterone were to cause ABCDEFG to be expressed, DHT might cause ABFDGFC to be expressed. The biggest similarity they have is that they bind the androgen receptor. This lack of specificity in what things are and what they are "supposed" to do based on their "identity" is a huge problem in my opinion. It keeps researchers in academia locked in an intellectual box because they have false preconceived notions about what something is supposed to do or how it's supposed to behave because of a label it's been given. The fact that estrogens are labeled as "female" hormones has already hurt research in biochemical mechanisms because it causes researchers to overlook mechanisms that estrogens may be responsible for simply because they are viewed as a female hormone and they play less of a role I'm the male body. This is false. Estrogens are more accurately growth stimulating hormones, but even that label will never be able to perfectly capture every biochemical role of estrogens.

So, back to the original question, if Turinabol checks all three of the boxes I've outlined, then it's a possible candidate for the same type and activity that Anavar induces.

 

[Norwoody]

The fact that estrogens are labeled as "female" hormones has already hurt research in biochemical mechanisms because it causes researchers to overlook mechanisms that estrogens may be responsible for simply because they are viewed as a female hormone and they play less of a role I'm the male body. This is false. Estrogens are more accurately growth stimulating hormones, but even that label will never be able to perfectly capture every biochemical role of estrogens.

Good point. I've heard that men generally possess higher levels of estrogen than post-menopausal women.

 

[ChemHead]

Good point. I've heard that men generally possess higher levels of estrogen than post-menopausal women.

I'd say that's due to men, even when old, having two primary sources of steroid synthesis. Post menopausal women are basically running off adrenal steroid synthesis, while men are still running on both adrenal and gonadal (albeit, lower) steroid synthesis.

It's also important to understand that a serum hormone profile doesn't really tell you much. It's more of a relic or an artifact of activity going on at a much deeper level. For example, the fact that women have a higher serum estrogen concentration compared to men doesn't mean that estrogenic activity in the liver tissue or joint tissue is higher in women than men. In fact, they should be relatively close, if not the same. The reason women have a higher serum concentration of estrogens is due to the fact that they have an entire (exclusively female) biological process that men don't have and that process requires a lot of stimulation of growth and, thus, the need for estrogens. The higher serum estrogen concentration in women is due to the "runoff" of estrogens from the higher level of estrogen biosynthesis required in reproductive tissues. When the estrogens are used, they find their way into serum and are either further metabolized and eliminated or they're reverse metabolized and reused. All other processes that are common between men and women requiring estrogens, however, should be the same or similar, so if you could test intracellular concentrations of estrogens (or any steroid) in lung tissue, for example, they should be relatively close.

There are some pretty masculine men out there that have better and healthier looking hair than a lot women and it's completely due to favorable gene expression that results in high local estrogen synthesis... regardless of their androgenic activity going on in the same locality.