Rasmus1504
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Sorry I'm a little ignorant. What exactly will a decrease in level of free testerone result in?
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Propecia decreases bioavailable testosterone!
- Thread starter Ende
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Is this actually a suprise to anyone? If it is you are pretty ignorant about how your body functions.
What it doesn't mean is propecia is 'a dangerous drug'. Lot's of things effect testostrone/estrogen/SBHG levels. Food, amount of sleep, exercise and supplements. A bad nights sleep can reduce testostrone levels by 40%. These hormones fluctuate within a wide range from hour to hour and day to day and almost everything we do effect them.
The small minority that suffer sides from finasteride are probably those with either a weak hormone profile anyway and/or a life style that does not help and finasteride pushed the free-t below the functional levels.
If you are suffering low libido etc get a blood test and look at ways of increasing your testostrone levels and reducing SBHG. Weight lifting, zinc supplements, plenty of protein, 8 hours sleep a night, eating fresh veg and no processed food are all simple lifestyle changes that will support both your general heath and hormone health.
What it doesn't mean is propecia is 'a dangerous drug'. Lot's of things effect testostrone/estrogen/SBHG levels. Food, amount of sleep, exercise and supplements. A bad nights sleep can reduce testostrone levels by 40%. These hormones fluctuate within a wide range from hour to hour and day to day and almost everything we do effect them.
The small minority that suffer sides from finasteride are probably those with either a weak hormone profile anyway and/or a life style that does not help and finasteride pushed the free-t below the functional levels.
If you are suffering low libido etc get a blood test and look at ways of increasing your testostrone levels and reducing SBHG. Weight lifting, zinc supplements, plenty of protein, 8 hours sleep a night, eating fresh veg and no processed food are all simple lifestyle changes that will support both your general heath and hormone health.
Oh, really? So it's no big deal that Merck failed to inform about this, and instead stated that Propecia increases the (total) testosterone level by 10%?MJUK said:Is this actually a suprise to anyone? If it is you are pretty ignorant about how your body functions.
It's exactly what it means. This shows that Merck and the authorities aren't aware of how the drug actually works. I've never heard about a drug, which disrupts the hormone system as much as Propecia does, yet it's only supposed to decrease the DHT level, and increase the testosterone- and estrogen level a little bit. DHT is the estrogen antagonist, and estrogen dominance could easily induce secondary hypogonadism. Think about that for a second and tell me again, that Propecia isn't a dangerous drug. Take a look on my thread about Propecia and neurohormones too, in the side effects section.MJUK said:What it doesn't mean is propecia is 'a dangerous drug'. Lot's of things effect testostrone/estrogen/SBHG levels.
lol, tell that to Mens Rea and Joe-1991.MJUK said:The small minority that suffer sides from finasteride are probably those with either a weak hormone profile anyway and/or a life style that does not help and finasteride pushed the free-t below the functional levels.
Figured this was a relevant topic to post my experiences while taking finasteride earlier this year:
I started on Rogaine Foam (5%) and finasteride about 7 months ago. I also tried 1% Nizoral, but found that it irritated my scalp far too much due to my generally sensitive skin.
My dermatologist prescribed me the finasteride and briefly mentioned that only a very slight percentage of men experienced some sexual side effects while on it. I didn't really give it much thought at the time because she made it sound so uncommon, plus I'm a young healthy person and hadn't ever dealt with any side effects while on any other type of medication.
Well, I can now say that I definitely experienced those side effects. At first, there was the slight testicular discomfort. Next, after about 2 months on the drug, I started noticing that my morning erections were gone. Also, my ejaculate had become more watery and overall there was just less of it. I've never had ANY sort of problem with being aroused before, so this started to concern me.
Over the next few months, I made sure to keep a close eye on these symptoms. I can honestly say I don't think there was any paranoia involved. I simply wanted to make sure this medication wasn't negatively affecting my ability to perform sexually. After the 5-month mark, I did notice that while I was able to still become aroused, I didn't have much of a sex drive the way I had in the past. I went through the breakup of a long-term relationship a few months before I started finasteride and didn't have a sexual partner over these months, but I noticed that my urge/desire to masturbate had also become nearly non-existent. Also, my erections weren't as firm and stable as they always had been.
It was at that point that I decided that it wasn't worth the risk and came off the drug. Thankfully, I have a ton of hair at the top and crown of my head now anyway. There is only some slight recession at the temples at this point. It's actually hardly noticeable anyway due to how I style my hair.
I've stuck with Rogaine and started applying topical spironolactone from this site as well over the past few months. I know it's a long shot for it to have much of an effect, but I'm glad that I'm at least fighting DHT in some form, even if it's not the most ideal way (finasteride). I don't think my recession in these areas has gotten worse, but I also haven't really seen any regrowth either.
I'm not sharing this story to scare anyone out of trying finasteride, but I thought I'd share my experiences because everyone should know that the side effects of this drug can be very real and you shouldn't take the decision of starting to take finasteride lightly. I've read other research and am starting to think that the side effects are much more common than the "1-2%" figure that propecia throws out there.
I started on Rogaine Foam (5%) and finasteride about 7 months ago. I also tried 1% Nizoral, but found that it irritated my scalp far too much due to my generally sensitive skin.
My dermatologist prescribed me the finasteride and briefly mentioned that only a very slight percentage of men experienced some sexual side effects while on it. I didn't really give it much thought at the time because she made it sound so uncommon, plus I'm a young healthy person and hadn't ever dealt with any side effects while on any other type of medication.
Well, I can now say that I definitely experienced those side effects. At first, there was the slight testicular discomfort. Next, after about 2 months on the drug, I started noticing that my morning erections were gone. Also, my ejaculate had become more watery and overall there was just less of it. I've never had ANY sort of problem with being aroused before, so this started to concern me.
Over the next few months, I made sure to keep a close eye on these symptoms. I can honestly say I don't think there was any paranoia involved. I simply wanted to make sure this medication wasn't negatively affecting my ability to perform sexually. After the 5-month mark, I did notice that while I was able to still become aroused, I didn't have much of a sex drive the way I had in the past. I went through the breakup of a long-term relationship a few months before I started finasteride and didn't have a sexual partner over these months, but I noticed that my urge/desire to masturbate had also become nearly non-existent. Also, my erections weren't as firm and stable as they always had been.
It was at that point that I decided that it wasn't worth the risk and came off the drug. Thankfully, I have a ton of hair at the top and crown of my head now anyway. There is only some slight recession at the temples at this point. It's actually hardly noticeable anyway due to how I style my hair.
I've stuck with Rogaine and started applying topical spironolactone from this site as well over the past few months. I know it's a long shot for it to have much of an effect, but I'm glad that I'm at least fighting DHT in some form, even if it's not the most ideal way (finasteride). I don't think my recession in these areas has gotten worse, but I also haven't really seen any regrowth either.
I'm not sharing this story to scare anyone out of trying finasteride, but I thought I'd share my experiences because everyone should know that the side effects of this drug can be very real and you shouldn't take the decision of starting to take finasteride lightly. I've read other research and am starting to think that the side effects are much more common than the "1-2%" figure that propecia throws out there.
Yeah, on paper, Propecia is almost as effective as Proscar, yet the percentage of subjects which experienced side effects is much lower. Keep in mind that Proscar is usually prescribed for old men as well. I think the result from the Propecia trials would have been very different if they only tested the drug on young men, say from 18 to 25 years old. Men from 30 years old are probably less likely to notice side effects like loss of morning erections, reduced libido and softer erections, because it's a natural part of aging. The testosterone production declines as men age, and a lot of men are facing symptoms of estrogen dominance in their 30's.
Take a look at this thread as well;
Propecia's devastating effect on neurohormones
Take a look at this thread as well;
Propecia's devastating effect on neurohormones
It is a drug, all drugs have side effects.
I along with many other people have been prescribed Accutane in the past which has been implicated in a vast array of side effects including many suicides and depressions. Now that is a dangerous drug!
Propecia like all drugs has the risk of side effects but it doesn't mean it is 'dangerous' as that word denotes a serious health risk. While propecia will affect your hormones my point was alot of what we do in our daily life does anyway so if your live a good lifestyle, workout and look after yourself it is unlikely propecia will push your hormone levels below functional levels. If you live like a slob, then you're probably at more risk of estrogen dominance but then you could look at ways of reducing estrogen? DIM and fresh broccoli would be a good start.
Personally I have been on propecia for 6 weeks now and haven't noticed any real side effects. My lifting in the gym is good. Sex is fine. The only side effect is the constant itchying on my scalp has gone which means it must be working. Each to their own, I just don't know why you would spend so much time slating a drug you don't use on the internet. You've made your choice, the millions of men that use it everyday have made their.
I along with many other people have been prescribed Accutane in the past which has been implicated in a vast array of side effects including many suicides and depressions. Now that is a dangerous drug!
Propecia like all drugs has the risk of side effects but it doesn't mean it is 'dangerous' as that word denotes a serious health risk. While propecia will affect your hormones my point was alot of what we do in our daily life does anyway so if your live a good lifestyle, workout and look after yourself it is unlikely propecia will push your hormone levels below functional levels. If you live like a slob, then you're probably at more risk of estrogen dominance but then you could look at ways of reducing estrogen? DIM and fresh broccoli would be a good start.
Personally I have been on propecia for 6 weeks now and haven't noticed any real side effects. My lifting in the gym is good. Sex is fine. The only side effect is the constant itchying on my scalp has gone which means it must be working. Each to their own, I just don't know why you would spend so much time slating a drug you don't use on the internet. You've made your choice, the millions of men that use it everyday have made their.
I've had symptoms of hypogonadism for 3 years - symptoms which were supposed to subside during therapy, or when I quit the drug, and you're telling me that it's not a dangerous drug?
People have committed suicide because of Propecia too, and I guess we'll see some more in the years to come.
People have committed suicide because of Propecia too, and I guess we'll see some more in the years to come.
Have you considered that you would have had hypogonadism anyway? Do you know if it is primary or secondary? And hypogonadism is not a side effect of propecia it is a sign you have something medically wrong with you. Propecia may have aggravated a pre-existing condition.
I feel for you but spending your time on here is a waste of your time. Get treatment for your condition rather than blaming a drug that is well tolerated by the vast majority of users.
If you can't get medicinal assistance, I would recommend trying what body builders call post cycle therapy for a month or two. It is what steroid users do after a cycle of steroids and 'jump starts' the bodys natural hormone system again using Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMS). There is plenty of information on body building sites and I'm sure they would help if you post a request.
I feel for you but spending your time on here is a waste of your time. Get treatment for your condition rather than blaming a drug that is well tolerated by the vast majority of users.
If you can't get medicinal assistance, I would recommend trying what body builders call post cycle therapy for a month or two. It is what steroid users do after a cycle of steroids and 'jump starts' the bodys natural hormone system again using Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMS). There is plenty of information on body building sites and I'm sure they would help if you post a request.
It's secondary, and estrogen dominance is a well known cause for secondary hypogonadism - so you're wrong. That said - I could have had an estrogen level that was high before I began treatment - and lowering DHT (which is the estrogen antagonist) by 70% would be a very bad idea, if that was the case. However, Merck doesn't recommend a blood test before the doctors prescribe this drug, and it appears like they think all the side effects are caused by a reduction of DHT, rather than excessive estrogen. I received a PM from a guy on this forum. I want you to take a look at it;MJUK said:Have you considered that you would have had hypogonadism anyway? Do you know if it is primary or secondary? And hypogonadism is not a side effect of propecia it is a sign you have something medically wrong with you. Propecia may have aggravated a pre-existing condition.
I feel for you but spending your time on here is a waste of your time. Get treatment for your condition rather than blaming a drug that is well tolerated by the vast majority of users.
If you can't get medicinal assistance, I would recommend trying what body builders call post cycle therapy for a month or two. It is what steroid users do after a cycle of steroids and 'jump starts' the bodys natural hormone system again using Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMS). There is plenty of information on body building sites and I'm sure they would help if you post a request.
You're right...Hi,Enden said:[quote:2rhpkqwr]Hi Enden. Can you please give me opinion about my situation.
Before start taking finasteride i checked my hormonal level: everything is within normal range except estradiol : 234,3 (normal for man: 0-206).
Do i have higher risk of gynecomastia from finasteride?
I would stay far away from finasteride in your case, as it's estrogen which is responsible for most of the severe side effects from the drug. DHT controls estrogen, and it would be a very bad idea to lower the level by 70% when your estrogen level is that high.
After 1 month on finasteride i checked my estradiol level again.
And it was 493 pmol / L (normal range 0-206 pmol / L).
After that i decided stop taking this pills...i hope i did right choice...[/quote:2rhpkqwr]
In this case, the estrogen level rose by more than 100%!!!
I'm familiar with steroids and PCT drugs. I've been on TRT for 1 1/2 years already, and some other medications to manage the DHT-, estrogen- and prolactin level. It works, but I have trouble stabilizing the condition for some reason - which means I have a good period before I crash, and it happens over and over again. I've had some degree of ED all the time, but I think it's because of wasted penile muscles. That happens when the testosterone level drops significantly. I've found that kegel exercises improves the condition slowly. I'm now experimenting with TRT and a progesterone gel, and so far - so good.
Posting this kind of information on forums isn't a waste of time - far from it. It gives Merck a bad reputation, and hopefully make people who're considering-, or currently using the drug, think twice.
finfighter said:MJUK said:Have you considered that you would have had hypogonadism anyway? Do you know if it is primary or secondary? And hypogonadism is not a side effect of propecia it is a sign you have something medically wrong with you. Propecia may have aggravated a pre-existing condition.
I feel for you but spending your time on here is a waste of your time. Get treatment for your condition rather than blaming a drug that is well tolerated by the vast majority of users.
If you can't get medicinal assistance, I would recommend trying what body builders call post cycle therapy for a month or two. It is what steroid users do after a cycle of steroids and 'jump starts' the bodys natural hormone system again using Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMS). There is plenty of information on body building sites and I'm sure they would help if you post a request.
You need to do some reading, 23 year old males don't just naturally develop Hypogonadism, it just doesn't happen period, ask any physician. Enden was a healthy, and perfectly normal 23 year old with no preexisting sexual health problems or hormonal imbalances, and he suddenly developed this condition while using Finasteride, after he discontinued Finasteride the problem remained it has been three years now. Think about it...
With all due respect you are absolutely wrong. Hypogonadism is not an old man’s disease as some believe. I didn't want to play the 'I have medical training card' but I do. Both primary hypogonadism and secondary can develop at any age although symptoms are far more common in older men.
I feel for Enden but I think it is improbable to the extreme that propecia would cause hypogonadism in healthy men. Not one example was seen during safety trials and various independent safety studies.
Enden said:I'm familiar with steroids and PCT drugs. I've been on TRT for 1 1/2 years already, and some other medications to manage the DHT-, estrogen- and prolactin level. It works, but I have trouble stabilizing the condition for some reason - which means I have a good period before I crash, and it happens over and over again. I've had some degree of ED all the time, but I think it's because of wasted penile muscles. That happens when the testosterone level drops significantly. I've found that kegel exercises improves the condition slowly. I'm now experimenting with TRT and a progesterone gel, and so far - so good.
Posting this kind of information on forums isn't a waste of time - far from it. It gives Merck a bad reputation, and hopefully make people who're considering-, or currently using the drug, think twice.
I believe estrogen is a key factor in many hypogonadism cases (and age related testosterone decline) and you are right to suspect it. Again, I know of no reason why propecia would cause estrogen to rise 100%, I would be looking more at liver function tests, while DHT is a mild estogen antagonist the effect should not under any circumstances cause a rise in estrogen as DHT has a greater afinity to SHBG so its serum level reduction would leave more unbound SHBG (all things being equal) resulting in less bio-available estrogen (as well as testostrone). I would note the reading you refer to show the guy already had FAR to much estrogen. We know nothing of his profile, was he obese, an alcoholic, did he have any pre-existing medical conditions that caused his high estrogen levels?
My advice would be to get your E2 level down to the bottom end of the normal range. E2 acts as a feedback on the HPTA reducing the secretation of LH and therefore testostone production. Arimidex would be good for this point. Studies have shown it effective in reducing E2 levels in men by 50% and increasing testostrone by circa 60% with a dose of 1mg EOD. I have used it before for PCT and it is very effective. I would also suggest you lose body fat and get down to 10-15% body fat at most. Fat cells produce Aromatase enzyme which is responsible for the conversion of testosterone to the various estrogen metabolites.
Something else you could try which I recently started using as part of my hair treatment is Ecklonia Cava. It is a potent anti-oxidant and has been proven to be as effective as v**** without the sides of high blood pressure. Another thing which is obviously a risk but might be worth a shout is Melanotan 2. It is an unregulated tanning drug with causes a MASSIVE rise in libido. I'm not joking the random hard-on's I have had during courses of MT-2 is embarrassing. melanotan.org is a useful information site.
As for your crusade on here, it is ofcourse your choice. In the interest of balance I would say millions of men use the drug for years (I used it for 3 years in my early twenties without problems but quit due to the cost) without any substantial side effects. You must have a pre-existing disorder that propecia has aggravated and I wish you well in your recovery.
I actually took the time to read this study and it caused a few things to click. I was always puzzled why Finasteride caused sexual side effects. For one, there was another study that measured side effects based on DHT inhibition. All said and done, they concluded that Testosterone was the hormone responsible for sexual functioning, not DHT. We also see this pretty clearly demonstrated when looking at Dutasteride. The side effect profiles versus finasteride/dutasteride are more or less the same, yet finasteride inhibits 65% of DHT and dutasteride inhibits 95%. Going along with the notion that DHT is responsible for sexual function, we would expect to see side effects in 3 or 4 times as many people on dutasteride. This clearly isn't the case, and from looking at posts on these message boards, LESS people have sides on dutasteride vs finasteride.
To bring me to my second point, why would we see side effects when total T is RAISED in almost every case? Wouldn't this result in positive benefits? This study shines a light on free T, which is some really useful information..
My final point. This study looked at 30 men. After taking finasteride, Free T levels were lowered in almost every case. I think I see some levels that were halved. However, only one individual complained of ED out of all 30, which is more or less in line with the 'official' side effect reports for Finasteride. This shows us that most of the time, the body can operate with lower Free T levels without skipping a beat. However, when people experience side effects, is it because their bodies simply can't handle any change in free T levels, or did they have marginal levels to start with?
I look at this wil little actual knowledge of hormones and how they operate, but this is my viewpoint from a layman perspective.
To bring me to my second point, why would we see side effects when total T is RAISED in almost every case? Wouldn't this result in positive benefits? This study shines a light on free T, which is some really useful information..
My final point. This study looked at 30 men. After taking finasteride, Free T levels were lowered in almost every case. I think I see some levels that were halved. However, only one individual complained of ED out of all 30, which is more or less in line with the 'official' side effect reports for Finasteride. This shows us that most of the time, the body can operate with lower Free T levels without skipping a beat. However, when people experience side effects, is it because their bodies simply can't handle any change in free T levels, or did they have marginal levels to start with?
I look at this wil little actual knowledge of hormones and how they operate, but this is my viewpoint from a layman perspective.
Wuffer, although testosterone is more important for the sexual function than DHT - it still plays a part. As for testosterone, free- or bioavailable testosterone is a lot more important than the total testosterone level, as it's what's available for the body to use. When my testosterone/estrogen ratio is alright (based on morning erections), DHT has an explosive effect on my libido. Although androgen deprivation is a factor, it's estrogen that's responsible for most of the severe side effects from the drug. The estrogen gets way out of control in some cases, because of DHT deficiency. See my response above, about the other guy who sent me a PM.
Obesity may cause the estrogen level to raise that much while using Propecia, as fat cells contains a lot of aromatase enzymes, but still - no one will develop secondary hypogonadism because of obesity. The reason that the estrogen level is able to raise that much, is because DHT is lowered by around 70%. DHT isn't as weak as you think. I believe that DHT is the hormone which maintains the testosterone/estrogen ratio.MJUK said:I believe estrogen is a key factor in many hypogonadism cases (and age related testosterone decline) and you are right to suspect it. Again, I know of no reason why propecia would cause estrogen to rise 100%, I would be looking more at liver function tests, while DHT is a mild estogen antagonist the effect should not under any circumstances cause a rise in estrogen as DHT has a greater afinity to SHBG so its serum level reduction would leave more unbound SHBG (all things being equal) resulting in less bio-available estrogen (as well as testostrone). I would note the reading you refer to show the guy already had FAR to much estrogen. We know nothing of his profile, was he obese, an alcoholic, did he have any pre-existing medical conditions that caused his high estrogen levels?
About SHBG; it has greater affinity for DHT and testosterone than estrogen, and when you reduce the amount of DHT, testosterone will take the hit. Estrogen is linked to SHBG as well, and more estrogen means more SHBG (women have a lot more SHBG than men). All this makes the estrogen dominance worse. As if that wasn't enough, all these changes causes a chain reaction in the endocrine system. Prolactin is an example of another hormone that increases with estrogen, and it takes a toll on your sexual function. It reduces libido and the intensity of orgasms, and it increases the refraction period.
It's a combination of drugs that have helped me, but I will give most credit to TRT and Arimidex. I used Andractim to get rid of gynecomastia, and Dostinex to deplete the prolactin level.Baldtimmy said:So eden, whats the one drug that has helped you the most with your recovery?
Enden said:About SHBG; it has greater affinity for DHT and testosterone than estrogen, and when you reduce the amount of DHT, testosterone will take the hit. Estrogen is linked to SHBG as well, and more estrogen means more SHBG (women have a lot more SHBG than men). All this makes the estrogen dominance worse. As if that wasn't enough, all these changes causes a chain reaction in the endocrine system. Prolactin is an example of another hormone that increases with estrogen, and it takes a toll on your sexual function. It reduces libido and the intensity of orgasms, and it increases the refraction period.
SHBG is produced in the liver and the level of SHBG is related to many things estrogen included. If you do have a problem with high estrogen I would also look at the following supplements:
1) Nettle root extract (lowers SHBG)
2) DIM (increases the conversion on E2 to less potent estrogen forms)
3) Milk Thistle (helps the liver dispose of estrogen).
Also if you have high prolactin, you may have a problem with your dopamine levels as dopamine down regulates prolactin production. Various food and supplements can help with this. Have you been checked for a pituitary tumour? They are fairly common and can result in high prolactin levels and all the associated symptoms.