Propecia decreases bioavailable testosterone!

[Ende]

I'm on steroids, so my SHBG is low. I've experimented with DHT, mesterolone and Arimidex to manage estrogen, and I'm currently using a progesterone cream. I don't have a tumor. My prolactin level is fine now, but it was twice as high as normal before I used Dostinex to lower it, and it was without a doubt caused by estrogen. Some people with PFS, believes that masturbation caused the condition to get worse, so prolactin is definitely involved in more cases. However, I may have another problem with dopamine, as I have had a problem with restless legs syndrome the last months. It affects my legs and arms, at night.

 

[MJUK]

Any form of external testosterone will suppress your natural production hence why it is probably hard to find a stable balance. Has your doctor given up trying to restart the HPTA? I have seen examples where steroid users have been shutdown for 12 months or more and a good PCT protocol has worked in getting the system started again.

 

[Ende]

I didn't get any help at all - and was forced to self medicate. That said, I have a doctor now, who assists me with blood tests whenever I need them, after the authorities forced him to do so. I should be able to stabilize the condition on TRT, so trying to recover the system is a waste of time. I'm fine with being on TRT for the rest of my life.

 

[Danik0226]

I've had my testosterone checked recently and free testosterone was higher than normal. Any drug that changes hormones may cause an issue with the individual. The hormonal balance of many people ranges widely and lifestyle is probably a big part of it as well. I know some people here have experimented with aromatase inhibitors to lower estrogen and increase testosterone. A good majority of my teenage years and later I have lifted weights. For a 3 year stretch I could have been considered a bodybuilder. High protein and calorie diets along with anaerobic exercise alone may change hormonal balances. Sleep and stress can change hormones. I'm not a defender of Merck and some of the shady things pharmaceuticals due to push a product, but I think people are far too emotional and quick to go start raging when you see rare cases of people experiencing problems.

 

[MJUK]

I didn't get any help at all - and was forced to self medicate. That said, I have a doctor now, who assists me with blood tests whenever I need them, after the authorities forced him to do so. I should be able to stabilize the condition on TRT, so trying to recover the system is a waste of time. I'm fine with being on TRT for the rest of my life.

I wouldn't go the TRT route. There is a debate about whether it does more harm than good. The main problem is getting balance given your body is constantly trying to adjust to external sources of testosterone.

I would try the following.

1) Stop all treatment for 2 weeks
2) Week 1 - 2: 100 mg clomid and 20 mg Nolvadex
3) Week 3 - 4: 50 mg clomid and 20 mg Nolvadex
4) Week 5 - 6: 25 mg clomid and 10 mg Nolvadex

Your libido will be low during this time due to the Nolvadex but should come back strong when it is removed. Add 1 mg arimidex EOD to keep your E2 in check. United Pharmacies would stock it all.

 

[MJUK]

I've had my testosterone checked recently and free testosterone was higher than normal. Any drug that changes hormones may cause an issue with the individual. The hormonal balance of many people ranges widely and lifestyle is probably a big part of it as well. I know some people here have experimented with aromatase inhibitors to lower estrogen and increase testosterone. A good majority of my teenage years and later I have lifted weights. For a 3 year stretch I could have been considered a bodybuilder. High protein and calorie diets along with anaerobic exercise alone may change hormonal balances. Sleep and stress can change hormones. I'm not a defender of Merck and some of the shady things pharmaceuticals due to push a product, but I think people are far too emotional and quick to go start raging when you see rare cases of people experiencing problems.

I read the doing deadlift and squats can increase your testosterone by 20% alone. Another good supplement is zinc. 50 mg a day can really help testosterone and a decent about of 'good fats' nuts/olive oil/egg whites.

 

[rxdr1]

I'm 21 years old and my doctor says I have hypogonadism. Does this mean I can't or shouldn't take propecia. If body hair is any indication then I probably have a very high DHT level because I got a lot of body hair. Is it possible I'm in a low T/high DHT situation and is there any way to treat that.

 

[clavamox]

Enden what are you up to take hair now?

Ru and minoxidil?

 

[Ende]

I didn't get any help at all - and was forced to self medicate. That said, I have a doctor now, who assists me with blood tests whenever I need them, after the authorities forced him to do so. I should be able to stabilize the condition on TRT, so trying to recover the system is a waste of time. I'm fine with being on TRT for the rest of my life.

I wouldn't go the TRT route. There is a debate about whether it does more harm than good. The main problem is getting balance given your body is constantly trying to adjust to external sources of testosterone.

I would try the following.

1) Stop all treatment for 2 weeks
2) Week 1 - 2: 100 mg clomid and 20 mg Nolvadex
3) Week 3 - 4: 50 mg clomid and 20 mg Nolvadex
4) Week 5 - 6: 25 mg clomid and 10 mg Nolvadex

Your libido will be low during this time due to the Nolvadex but should come back strong when it is removed. Add 1 mg arimidex EOD to keep your E2 in check. United Pharmacies would stock it all.

I've actually though about restarting the system, because I think it'll be easier to stabilize the condition. I bought Clomid, and was going to use 25 mg a day for 6 weeks, but I changed my mind when I figured out that I respond to large doses of testosterone, along with Arimidex. I'm currently experimenting with progesterone, and I'm going to lower the testosterone dose again to 50 mg Telogen Effluvium twice a week - and see how that goes. I've been using the progesterone cream for a week or so now, and my libido has increased, and I'm getting spontaneous erections during the day, for the first time since I got damaged by the drug.

 

[Ende]

I'm not a defender of Merck and some of the shady things pharmaceuticals due to push a product, but I think people are far too emotional and quick to go start raging when you see rare cases of people experiencing problems.

Yeah, you would be raging too, if you were one of them.

 

[cuebald]

how come mine, and many other people's libidos have gone up since starting finasteride (and have remained 10% up for the 2-3 years since) if it reduces bioavailable testosterone in all cases?

 

[Wuffer]

how come mine, and many other people's libidos have gone up since starting finasteride (and have remained 10% up for the 2-3 years since) if it reduces bioavailable testosterone in all cases?

Most men (roughly 98% going by side effect profiles in studies) do fine with even decreased bioavailble testosterone. Your libido / erectile quality is not directly related to the amount of free testosterone in your blood, nor is it related to the amount of DHT.

It isn't like if your free T drops 50%, then your libido and erectile quality will drop by 50% as well. Most men can handle these hormonal variances without skipping a beat. I figure that the 2-5% that have side effects either already have marginal hormononal levels, or for some reason can't handle ANY dip in free t or DHT whatsoever, due to their genetic make-up.

 

[Rocky V]

man everytime I read some horror stories of finasteride I get tripped out.

and honestly, the only thing that makes me continue with finasteride is reading wuffer's posts.

he says some good stuff which actually relieve me of my anxiety towards finasteride.

thanks man

 

[Ende]

how come mine, and many other people's libidos have gone up since starting finasteride (and have remained 10% up for the 2-3 years since) if it reduces bioavailable testosterone in all cases?

Most men (roughly 98% going by side effect profiles in studies) do fine with even decreased bioavailble testosterone. Your libido / erectile quality is not directly related to the amount of free testosterone in your blood, nor is it related to the amount of DHT.

It isn't like if your free T drops 50%, then your libido and erectile quality will drop by 50% as well. Most men can handle these hormonal variances without skipping a beat. I figure that the 2-5% that have side effects either already have marginal hormononal levels, or for some reason can't handle ANY dip in free t or DHT whatsoever, due to their genetic make-up.

Your libido, erections and sensitivity are dependent on a good testosterone/estrogen ratio, dopamine and DHT. Nitric oxide and cGMP are important for erections as well. Free testosterone is a lot more important than total testosterone. Some people are probably more sensitive to hormonal changes as you suggest. However, lowering the amount of free testosterone isn't good at all - and that's not the only change Propecia makes. What makes free testosterone so special in this case, is that according to Merck - the drug isn't supposed to do this - yeah, they state that your (total) testosterone level increases by 10% - fooling people to believe that it's actually a good thing. A doctor said that the total testosterone level goes up, when your free testosterone level goes down.

 

[Bryan]

(referring to Propecia usage) A doctor said that the total testosterone level goes up, when your free testosterone level goes down.

What doctor made such a claim as that, and how on earth would it work that way?

 

[Ende]

I stand corrected. I remembered it wrong.

7/9/2011 blood test (3 months post finasteride)
LH 4.1
FSH 1.6
testosterone 856 (249-836 ng/dL)
free t, direct 13.0 (8.7-25.1 pg/mL)
SHBG 77.5 (14.5-48.4 nmol/L)
estradiol 37.0 (7.6-42.6 pg/mL)
estrone 45 (12-72 pg/mL)

letter from my endo dated july 2011
It would probably be worth having liver function tests done to be sure the high SHBG is not one manifestation of a more general problem with hyperglobulinemia due to hepatitis or chronic liver disease, but that explanation for the high SHBG seems highly unlikely. My previous speculation, that high estrogens might have explained the elevation of SHBG, was not supported by the current studies. There may be a relatively long timeframe for changes to be seen in the levels of circulation globulins, after revision of any influence that had been formerly exerting an effect upon their levels. A possibility is that we still could be seeing lingering effects from estrogen elevations of the past; the present estradiol level is in the high end of the normal range. However, given that estrogen elevation is not a recognized complication of treatment with Propecia, I now think the likeliest explanation might be that SHBG levels could be affected by the ratio of dihydrotestosterone to estrogen, such that a low ratio induces SHBG levels to be elevated. Once SHBG is elevated, the total testosterone is elevated, but not the free testosterone. With the passage of time, if there has been a temporary effect of this type, the effect should regress. Although I have tried to research these questions, I'm not finding clearcut answers. If I hear from you with your permission, I might like to share the de-identified data with an expert in the field of andrology or sex steroid metabolism. If you should learn anything further from your contacts who have similar concern, I would be interested to hear of your findings. (she means the hairloss community).

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=64933&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=40

 

[blakes33]

Crap, i'm surprised i've never seen this.. Thats actually a little troubling. I have bloods from pre-finasteride, so i'm going to schedule another test to check for bioavailable T.

Thanks for posting this, I think it's yet another reason for people to take before/after bloods.

I didn't read the entire study, but do these levels return to normal after discontinuing? At least in these subjects?

How were your levels post-finasteride/on finasteride compared to pre-finasteride?

 

[DarkSockedFox]

Alright, so I'm looking into this whole hormonal deal, but it's all very confusing. Is there any way (medication or lifestyle choice) you can raise free-testosterone levels then? Or would you do it by suppressing estrogen levels to get a better ratio? Sorry for my noobishness, but I'm interested in knowing if there's a way to bring free-T and total T levels up while remaining on finasteride. Thanks and sorry if I'm hijacking. =D

 

[blakes33]

I didn't want to play the 'I have medical training card' but I do.

LOL!! Cleaning bedpans, changing dirty sheets, checking vitals every few hours and administering little pills in a cup to patients doesn't even come CLOSE to 'medical training' as it pertains to this topic.

I just hope I never end up at the hospital you work at, Nurse Boy

 

[MJUK]

I didn't want to play the 'I have medical training card' but I do.

LOL!! Cleaning bedpans, changing dirty sheets, checking vitals every few hours and administering little pills in a cup to patients doesn't even come CLOSE to 'medical training' as it pertains to this topic.

I just hope I never end up at the hospital you work at, Nurse Boy

Lol very funny! Not quite, I'm an anesthetist.