READ READ READ.. Very Interesting POV

Empire

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Ok I was at my GP not too long ago, an Egyptian doctor who I have been seeing for about a decade.

For the first time we spoke about my hair loss, well well fkn well.. what a surprise when that topic was brought up.

Turns out he used to work for Merck & Sharpe as a researcher back in Egypt and he was booted out for his theory on hair loss. This is no bullshit.. this guy was a fkn knowledge machine. All this time!

This is what his theory is:

DHT isn't the cause of hair loss is. Sebum is. This is why:

DHT triggers the glands in your follicle to overproduce sebum. Bacteria gathers in this overflow and your immune system then attacks the bacteria, INCLUDING the hair follicle with inflammation. He said it's very similar to the process of acne.

Propecia works by stopping the DHT triggering the sebum overflow. He said Propecia could make your hair worse if like me hyperandrogenicity causes the extra oil.

He said he proved this theory by putting an early stage patient on low dose accutane. He said the patient regrew hair. He said this is why Retinoid helps, not because it tackles DHT, but because it tackles the sebaceous gland and stops the production of sebum.. hence stopping the gathering of bacteria.. hence no inflammation and no immune response.

I also asked why some medications work and why some don't. He said in theory it should work for all, but there are 2 reasons it doesnt:

1. Internal drugs can cause hyperandrogenicity like I've experienced
2. Topical drugs don't reach the follicle BECAUSE of the sebum build up blocking it. He said minoxidil works best with retin-A not because retin-A helps hair loss through DHT, but helps the minoxidil flow down the follicle wall by eliminating sebum build up.

He said he never really gave it the years of research it deserves, but his theory is ultra-low-doses of Accutane stops hair loss. He said 10mg twice a week will do the job.

He said when he kept trying to push this idea through his experiments, Merck kicked him off the research team.
 

helpmyhair

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Very interesting.. though isn't hair thinning a possible side effect of Accutane?

Also, Jojoba oil is supposed to remove access sebum from the scalp.. though would it be effective at actually doing so?
 

casperz

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That is interesting and I've never heard anything like that before.

I have had a growth spurt since starting glycolic acid peels on my
scalp and I wonder if the peel is clearing out sebum from my scalp.
I've read that glycolic peels are supposed to clear up acne so
maybe it's the same type action.
 

tman7

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According to Minoxidol.com Sebum causing male pattern baldness is a myth


"There is a relationship between sebum and DHT, but not between sebum and male pattern baldness. DHT is found in the sebum in a high concentration because DHT is soluble in fatty substances such as sebum. But the sebaceous glands are superficial to the hair follicles and the DHT in the sebum does not affect the hair follicle. Damage due to DHT occurs at the base of the hair follicles, where testosterone is converted into DHT via types 1 and 2, 5 alpha- reductase enzymes. Routine shampooing or otherwise removing sebum will not prevent or reverse male pattern baldness."
 

Bryan

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Ask the brilliant Egyptian doctor how he fits into his nutty theory the fact that finasteride has no effect on sebum production! :smack:
 

Empire

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Bryan said:
Ask the brilliant Egyptian doctor how he fits into his nutty theory the fact that finasteride has no effect on sebum production! :smack:

I have to say.. as a GP, he's fkn brilliant. He's known for dealing with children and he was brilliant when I had chronic fatigue.

But good point, Im seeing him tomorrow so will definately bring that up.
 

Empire

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tman7 said:
According to Minoxidol.com Sebum causing male pattern baldness is a myth


"There is a relationship between sebum and DHT, but not between sebum and male pattern baldness. DHT is found in the sebum in a high concentration because DHT is soluble in fatty substances such as sebum. But the sebaceous glands are superficial to the hair follicles and the DHT in the sebum does not affect the hair follicle. Damage due to DHT occurs at the base of the hair follicles, where testosterone is converted into DHT via types 1 and 2, 5 alpha- reductase enzymes. Routine shampooing or otherwise removing sebum will not prevent or reverse male pattern baldness."

I think theyre referring to DHT found in sebum.

My GP is saying the sebum itself.. not DHT.. DHT is creating the sebum thats attracting the bacteria, thats causing the inflammation, thats causing the immune response, thats kicking the follicle out.

Oh and he said, this is microscopic.. happens below the skin.
 

Andrea

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I agree with this theory.
Bryan I read some conflicting informations about fiasteride and sebum. The first study, sponsored by Merck, shows that finasteride doesn't reduce type 1 of 5AR but, over the years, some studies (Ritthmaster for example) says that even finasteride affects the type 1 of 5AR in a dose dipendent manner and I THINK that the total reduction of DHT in the bloodstrem MAY reduce the stimuli of sebaceous glands.
Don't forget that corticosteroids and drugs with an immunosoppressant effect show hair regrowth. Recently even the Roxitromicin (antibiotic) have done good results on hair, or, for example, ketokonazole...
In my opinion everything that kick out the immune system from scalp and hair follicle is good to treat male pattern baldness.
Accutane in a low dose is good but in a large dose is a disaster because too much sebum is negative and too less is also negative because sebum have a protective effect to the skin against bacteria, fungi and atmosferic agents...
Bye

Sorry for my terrible English
 

decro435

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My head is inflammed and itches like crazy in my male pattern baldness areas. I seriously believe that inflammation has a bigger role in male pattern baldness than it gets credit for.

Still it doesn't explain why it occurs in a certain pattern..
 

Bryan

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Andrea said:
Bryan I read some conflicting informations about fiasteride and sebum. The first study, sponsored by Merck, shows that finasteride doesn't reduce type 1 of 5AR but, over the years, some studies (Ritthmaster for example) says that even finasteride affects the type 1 of 5AR in a dose dipendent manner...

It's true that even finasteride inhibits the type 1 enzyme in a dose-dependent manner, but you'd have to take quite a lot of it to have a significant effect. Here's what they said in the Gisleskog et al studies of finasteride and dutasteride: "No effect of finasteride on 5a-reductase type 1 was included in the current model. However, finasteride has been shown to interact with 5a-reductase type 1 in vitro with a second-order rate about 2.2% of the rate constant for the GI198745--5a-reductase type 1 interaction [GI198745 is dutasteride]. If the same relation between the rate constants.....is true in vivo, a steady-state finasteride concentration of about 1200 ng/mL would be needed to suppress 5a-reductase type 1 by 50%. Assuming linear pharmacokinetics, daily doses of about 270 mg finasteride would be required to achieve average concentrations of this magnitude."

Andrea said:
...and I THINK that the total reduction of DHT in the bloodstrem MAY reduce the stimuli of sebaceous glands.

Imperato-McGinley did a careful test a while back that showed that the standard Proscar dosage of finasteride (5 mg/day) had no measurable effect on sebum secretion. Obviously, DHT plays very little role as an endocrine hormone (meaning that DHT circulating in the bloodstream doesn't have much effect on body tissues).

Andrea said:
Don't forget that corticosteroids and drugs with an immunosoppressant effect show hair regrowth.

Orentreich did a study several years ago which found no beneficial effect on hair loss from topical corticosteroids.

Andrea said:
Accutane in a low dose is good but in a large dose is a disaster because too much sebum is negative and too less is also negative because sebum have a protective effect to the skin against bacteria, fungi and atmosferic agents...

Imperato-McGinley also found that people with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitiviy Syndrome) produce almost no sebum, yet they still have thick, luxuriant scalp hair growth. In this regard, they are very much like young children, who have similar characteristics. I don't see any reason to believe that sebum has any kind of "protective effect". BTW, the famous dermatologist Albert M. Kligman MD, PhD has stated that sebum doesn't have fungistatic or antibacterial properties.
 

Jack

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As said ..if hairloss would be linked to sebum , finasteride wouldn't be that successful because it doesn't change sebum output at all in usual doses.

Andrea said:
I THINK that the total reduction of DHT in the bloodstrem MAY reduce the stimuli of sebaceous glands.

I'm taking 0,5mg dutasteride a day and my sebum output stayed exactly the same as before. Either 50% reduction of dht type 1 is not enough for me , or I'm experiencing this hyperangrogenity thing which counteracts the supposed reduction and raises the sebum to old levels ? (well I doubt that last theory :innocent: )

Andrea said:
Accutane in a low dose is good

Is low dose accutane really safe for hair ? I've read journals on acne sites where even low doses like 5mg/d caused hair loss after continued use. I wouldn't mind beeing less oily but this seems too risky
 

Empire

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Back guys. Ok I brought up Bryans rebuttle and my GP explained this:

- Merck had put some research into finasteride to see what effect it had on Type 1 DHT in reducing sebum production. There was a decrease, but not enough for fund another patent for there protocol "Provade" which was meant to be an internal drug for acne for men, the returns were feasible they ditched the idea.

- Finasteride DOES indeed have a signficant impact on sebum production but heres the issue at hand.

A person who has less aggressive hair loss, would have less sebum product so finasteride would have more of an impact on production. The slightest change in sebum could cause a significant benefit.

A person who has more aggressive hair loss, would have more sebum product meaning your going to see more people in this group complaining "finasteride didnt work for me"

My GP is a smart guy. Well in everything else, he's pretty on the ball and he's infamous around my area, especially with ill kids, so he must know things others don't. He is convinced low dose accutane is a cure for hair loss. I asked him then why isn't it all over the news, why aren't people rushing to use it.. and he told me, cause it would knock out alot of business and that creates enemies within the pharm. industry, they are in bed together.

He said, hair loss can be a side affect from Accutane if used at 0.5-1mg/kg but mostly those on 80mg a day will be high risk at experiencing it. 40mg a day is a risk, but a lower one, and 20mg a day is rare.

He said 10mg twice a week is very safe and good for hair loss. It will eliminate inflammation and eliminate excess sebum production. He reckons this is a hair loss cure and this is why merck threw him off the research team, he shouldn't have stumbled on it.
 

Empire

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Ok.. I'm going to do it.

Tomorrow I will be tking my first 10mg Accutane pill.

Wish me luck.
 

Jack

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Empire said:
- Finasteride DOES indeed have a signficant impact on sebum production but heres the issue at hand.

Where does your Doctor get the idea that finasteride. has any impact on sebum ?? I've only seen evidence so far that it doesn't , including personal experience.
Good luck with the accutane though , I'd be interested to know what it does for you.
 

Empire

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Jack said:
Empire said:
- Finasteride DOES indeed have a signficant impact on sebum production but heres the issue at hand.

Where does your Doctor get the idea that finasteride. has any impact on sebum ?? I've only seen evidence so far that it doesn't , including personal experience.
Good luck with the accutane though , I'd be interested to know what it does for you.

*shrugs*

He sounds like its something he knows alot about. It sounded kind of personal when we talked about it. Like it was something he was heavily involved in.

Either way tomorrow Im starting the Accutane. I got a feeling about it, one of those man I've just stumbled on something big feelings.

See how I go.
 

Bryan

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Empire said:
- Finasteride DOES indeed have a signficant impact on sebum production but heres the issue at hand.

So did he explain why Imperato-McGinley's study completely contradicts his claim? :)

Empire said:
My GP is a smart guy.

He sounds like a quack to me.
 
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