READ READ READ.. Very Interesting POV

[cyberprimate]

Can anyone summerize this thread in a couple of sentences?

Read the first post by Empire where him and his doctor suggest that taking low dose of Accutane to prevent over production of sebum in the scalp could cure hair loss. There's also the suggestion that high doses of accutane does the opposite on scalp hair.

Based on this unorthodox advice of his doctor, Empire started taking a very low dose of Accutane (and only that) for a few months before stopping it despite what he thought were good results. He was seemingly tired of being harrassed by people about the dangers of accutane, the irresponsibility of advocating his experiment, and the logic of his doctor's theory. It's not impossible that Empire still takes accutane, but afaik he hasn't reported about it.

Since then, the debate about the influence of sebum on hair loss and on the body in general, has been going on but no one is posting reports on their experience with Empire's low accutane regimen.

 

[ryder]

sigh..

so there is a chance finasteride increases sebum production???

 

[Bryan]

sigh..

so there is a chance finasteride increases sebum production???

Finasteride has been tested by some very serious scientists, and found not to have any effect on sebum production.

 

[ryder]

sigh..

so there is a chance finasteride increases sebum production???

Finasteride has been tested by some very serious scientists, and found not to have any effect on sebum production.

ok.. so if i suffer from an oily skin and thus an oily scalp when i wake up (which i assume doesnt help my reeceding hairline), i should take nizoral for that, and finasteride to reduce dht binding?

 

[Bryan]

ok.. so if i suffer from an oily skin and thus an oily scalp when i wake up (which i assume doesnt help my reeceding hairline), i should take nizoral for that, and finasteride to reduce dht binding?

I have no reason to think that sebum contributes to male pattern baldness. I think that sebum production and male pattern baldness are both the result of androgenic stimulation, without either one directly causing the other.

If you want to take finasteride to help slow or stop your hairloss, that's perfectly fine.

 

[CCS]

@ OP

DHT in sebum glands is made by 5ar1, which is not affected by finasteride. Yet finasteride fights balding.

Also, many balding men don't have oily scalps. Mine is dry, with no acne or signs of excess oil. Explain that.

I do agree excess sebum could block the absorption of certain types of topicals.

I think there may be a small amount of truth to part of this theory, but Nizoral should take care of it.

 

[CCS]

My head is inflammed and itches like crazy in my male pattern baldness areas. I seriously believe that inflammation has a bigger role in male pattern baldness than it gets credit for.

Still it doesn't explain why it occurs in a certain pattern..

My follicles feel sore some days, but Nizoral always fixes that. I have read that there are two kinds of sebum and that a waxier kind is made in the absence of certain fatty acids, namely the ones known to be strongest at inhibiting 5ar1.

 

[CCS]

the huge surprise while on the medicine (Acutane) is that within days of starting it my hairloss completely STOPED 100%. I could not see any more hair falling while showering or even slightly pulling it... NONE.

after the 3rd month I got a monster shed and my right temple started to thin out in a matter of days.... I stayed on acutane for 3 months more (6 months total) and the last 3 months I felt all sorts of side effects..... my nails and skin thinned out.... my skin wAS very sensitive to heat, friction and I became very irritable.

Sounds to me like acutane is fat soluble and built up in your system. Once you had achieved the threshhold concentration, you got the side effects. Who knows what the half life of the stuff is. To bad there were no early warning signs.

I'm starting to believe some of this theory, but I just think topical keto is the way to go. It is anti-microbial, anti-androgen, anti-inflammatory, and is proven to stimulate hair.

 

[CCS]

The RDA for vitamin A is 1.5 mg per day. Accutane is a form of vitamin A. I think even OP's ultra low does may cause problems.

You can get 50 10mg capsules for $15, which lasts 6 months.

 

[CCS]

if the sebum is the cause of hairloss ...how can we explain that:

4)transplanted hair stay on..
5)we don't loose facial hair even at very oily spots and during the most acne prone years etc..



4) transplanted hair arent as sensitive to DHT so they dont produce as much sebum.
5) this i have no idea..

Hair follicles don't produce sebum. There are sebum glands very close by though. But on a cellular level, not so close by. Strangely the sebum glands are not killed off by the immune system.

 

[armandein]

So... if sebum serves no point? Why do we have it then? Just curious.

Members of the medical cognoscenti (like Kligman and his colleagues) think that sebum probably had a useful purpose at one time in our distant past (like maybe to waterproof our fur), but as we lost that fur, sebum became more and more unnecessary. Kligman regards sebum nowadays as a "living fossil".

Pflugers Arch. 2011 Mar 8. [Epub ahead of print]
"Sebocytes' makeup" - Novel mechanisms and concepts in the physiology of the human sebaceous glands.

Tóth BI, Oláh A, Szöll?si AG, Czifra G, Bíró T.

Department of Physiology, Medical and Health Science Center, Research Center for Molecular Medicine, University of Debrecen, 4032, Debrecen,, Nagyerdei krt. 98, PO Box 22, Hungary.
Abstract

The pilosebaceous unit of the human skin consists of the hair follicle and the sebaceous gland. Within this "mini-organ", the sebaceous gland has been neglected by the researchers of the field for several decades. Actually, it was labeled as a reminiscence of human development ("a living fossil with a past but no future"), and was thought to solely act as a producer of sebum, a lipid-enriched oily substance which protects our skin (and hence the body) against various insults. However, due to emerging research activities of the past two decades, it has now become evident that the sebaceous gland is not only a "passive" cutaneous "relic" to establish the physico-chemical barrier function of the skin against constant environmental challenges, but it rather functions as an "active" neuro-immuno-endocrine cutaneous organ. This review summarizes recent findings of sebaceous gland research by mainly focusing on newly discovered physiological functions, novel regulatory mechanisms, key events in the pathology of the gland, and future directions in both experimental and clinical dermatology.

PMID: 21384129 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

 

[Bryan]

"...This review summarizes recent findings of sebaceous gland research by mainly focusing on newly discovered physiological functions, novel regulatory mechanisms, key events in the pathology of the gland, and future directions in both experimental and clinical dermatology."

Too bad they don't talk about any of those "recent findings" in that abstract. I'd like to hear about them.

 

[armandein]

Me too.
but it rather functions as an "active" neuro-immuno-endocrine cutaneous organ.

 

[shears]

I've been reading most of this thread, not all. The sebum theory is interesting. So according to the doctor, DHT makes the glands near the hair follicle overproduce sebum, which then gets attacked by bacteria, and the body's immune system pretty much attacks and wipes out the hair follicle along with the bacteria.

So all this is done within a perfect male pattern baldness (Norwood) hair pattern? You can get acne pretty much anywhere, but this over-produced sebum and immune attack occurs in a localized male pattern baldness pattern?

 

[armandein]

I've been reading most of this thread, not all. The sebum theory is interesting. So according to the doctor, DHT makes the glands near the hair follicle overproduce sebum, which then gets attacked by bacteria, and the body's immune system pretty much attacks and wipes out the hair follicle along with the bacteria.

So all this is done within a perfect male pattern baldness (Norwood) hair pattern? You can get acne pretty much anywhere, but this over-produced sebum and immune attack occurs in a localized male pattern baldness pattern?

Hi shears:
DHT make the glands in pilosebaceous unit produce sebum (Note that I omit the word "over"). On the other hand, the male pattern baldness pattern could be due that in the sides of head is impossible get an accumulation of sebum if we considered that this are in contact with an absorvent surface when we sleep. This is my idea but I can be wrong.

 

[JohnDoe1989]

This thread is incredible. It was mind-blowing for me.

I had a perfect face(no acnee) until i was 20(now i am nearly 22). Sometimes i had some pustules(? this is how it is said in english i guess) like every other teenager. And at nearly 21 i started taking some pills for weight loss. I took them for like 2 months everyday. Then the hell took off. I started having lots of pustules and my face was oily.+ i was shedding like HELL. 300hair/day. In 3 month from a head 95% full of hair(i was never a thick one) i've ended up to have like 50-60%. And a HELL OF ITCHINESS on top (i couldn't sleep of itchiness). I still have, right now, problems with this sh*t (black dots, white dots, pustules-like when i was younger, greasy face sometimes).

When i was loosing hair like crazy the itching was the worst thing. I didn't knew then about NIZORAL.

From there on i started using MIN on my crown + nizoral sometimes. The itching continued and, even with the constant growing hair, the hair was recycling like crazy(100-150/per day).

I've started using propecia for some time, not using MIN on crown(and i see regrowth) but now i am constant peeing (sex effects from finasteride - waterly semen). My hair doesn't itch that much, but i don't know what it's worst. Constant itching or constant peeing (it affects my sex life - i can have an errection easy, evan 2 per day- like usual, but if i have to go to the bathroom it's no good). Sometimes i have to go once every 2 hours, and some days i go 3 times in an hour.

I've stoped propecia 2 weeks ago for 3 days and the hair was itching like crazy again, peeing going to regular (1 every 4-5 hours). I've jump again on it 0.5mg/day and the peeing was back, itching not so much. Evan on finasteride i was still itching(not a lot,but still..).

Now i've stopped taking finasteride for 2 days. And guess what. Evan less itching than before. What i've changed? I apply Nizoral 2% every day. And let it soak 1 hour before i wash it. After that i wash it fast with a natural shampoo for dry hair. Still applying min on temples 2 times/day/0.5ml each.
Normal 30hair shed when washing.

I know that the finasteride it is still in my system but it is not like the last time. Not the same burning sensation. Last time i was using nizoral 1-2 times a week and leave it on just 3-5 minutes.

I remember very well that I was itching all over the head. Even in the back and sides (and i've lost some hair in the non Norwood type 2). So i think i will go to my derm and have a talk with him. I want him to recommend some topical inhibitor for my sebum. Or an acnee pill like Accutane(low doses of course). If i manage to get them i will reply back and keep you updated.

 

[John979]

If sebum providing a home for bacteria was the problem, hair transplants would not work. PERIOD.

 

[armandein]

If sebum providing a home for bacteria was the problem, hair transplants would not work. PERIOD.

Hair trasplants dont work at 100%, even scalp reductions dont make the work. ¿why?


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14858&hilit=+scalp+reduction

Like most people here, my own hair loss effected me badly. So in the early 80's, i had a number of transplantation procedures. This comprised of four scalp reductions finished off by 4mm plug grafts.

In those days, the stretching of hair bearing tissue upwards from the sides of the head by scalp reduction, was being hailed as a major breakthrough in hair transplantation. This procedure done properly covered the larger part of the crown area, and left the plug graft donor area at the back of the head intact. Plug grafts were then used to fill in the front and the remaining central scar on the crown left by the scalp reductions.

My procedures were done by a leading clinic, and the results were very good, i had no complaints about the clinical competence. However, over the same kind of time scale as i had lost my original hair, the hair moved by scalp reduction also receeded back. My natural recession point at the sides was well established before the scalp reductions, and over time the scalp reductions made no difference to this!

 

[John979]

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/downloa ... on2005.pdf

See pages 6-7 for a good explanation why transplants fail.

While the complete mechanism of male pattern baldness is complex, the simple fact remains that castrated boys and those lacking the alpha five reductase enzyme do not go bald.

 

[armandein]

The best hair trasplant wpuldt be when we don't make surgical procedures to move hairs, Scalp reduction and the new placing or positionating of hairs dont. suffer anything. What can we think if dont work SR?