The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[HughJass]

Obviously, this is a valid point. I don't think anyone, even pro-Israelis, can present a valid argument that counters the "original sin" aspect of Israel's creation.

Those who can't get past that "original sin", as yourself, will lock yourself into a position where no solution will ever be possible short of massive bloodletting.

Those who can get past the "original sin" and deal with reality in terms of finding a solution taking as a given the current realities that the state of Israel exists have a shot of forging a more enduring peace. In other words, Aussieavodart, get over the fact that Israel was created and exists, and lets start a negotiation that accepts this.. and works forward from that point on to find an arrangement that both sides can live with.

the original sin as you call it, is still very much relevant to finding to a final settlement- the right of return for Palestinian refugees currently living in neighboring Arab states is still a sticking point in finding a solution and is dismissed as a baseless claim (while the same 'right' is extended to all Jewish people) when it's pretty clear from the history of Israel's founding that if anyone should be entitled to a right of return it's the Palestinians.

I mean, if you are so willing to CONSTANTLY complain about the lack of justification for Israel to establish its own pseudo-colonial state on the Levant, then I'd certainly assume that you are equally angry about Australia's original sin, and be equally willing to return Australian lands to their rightful ancestral owners... right? Or are you just a big flaming hypocrite?

I mean, Jesus Christ, you guys engaged in hard core ethnic cleansing...

Obviously I did no such thing, and the actions of the government certainly don't reflect my views on the matter -I've always been a big supporter of native title rights and compensation for the stolen generation.

 

[HughJass]

Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the right-of-centre Likud party, has been asked to form Israel's next government.

Well, looks like the knuckle-dragger/facist parties will be in control for a while to come.


We get to hear endless bollox about Iran for the next for years :thumbdown2:

 

[kadosh]

Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the right-of-centre Likud party, has been asked to form Israel's next government.

Well, looks like the knuckle-dragger/facist parties will be in control for a while to come.


We get to hear endless bollox about Iran for the next for years :thumbdown2:

thats optimistic .
I cant remember the last time a government lasted for four years .

what makes you think Iran arming is bollocks ?
right wing = facist ?

 

[The Gardener]

The LAST thing the Middle East needs is an Israel led by Bibi. The lies will be continued, the needless bloodshed will continue, and Israel will continue to slide into a position increasingly more and more similar to apartheid South Africa.

I'm really disappointed by the electoral result in Israel. Hard core right wing Israeli policies, such as expanding of current settlements, will only serve to hasten Israel's demise... totally suicidal.

MOST appalling to me is the rise of Avigdor Lieberman. Even Americans, who generally give Israel the "benefit of a doubt", are sickened by this guy's platform. What kind of a nation could give a man with policies he supports ANY sort of credibility at all?!

While the US elects Obama to its Presidency, Israel is witnessing the rise of the ethnic-cleansing candidate of Lieberman.... makes me sick to my stomach. Israeli credibility is in SEVERE decline.

 

[kadosh]

The LAST thing the Middle East needs is an Israel led by Bibi. The lies will be continued, the needless bloodshed will continue, and Israel will continue to slide into a position increasingly more and more similar to apartheid South Africa.

I'm really disappointed by the electoral result in Israel. Hard core right wing Israeli policies, such as expanding of current settlements, will only serve to hasten Israel's demise... totally suicidal.

I dont see it that way . the differences in policies between Likud (netanyahu party) and Kadima are negligible but people fail to see it so the hard core right wing policies are really the majority opinion here . bloodshed ? when was there a time here there werent bloody events ? even with left wing governments that were perceived as "good" in the eyes of the world . if anything the three years Bibi was the PM were one of the most quiet ones since 1992 .
settelments? if Ehud Barack was elected would it please you more ? the fact is that when he was PM there were more constructions there than any other government . the settlers themselves (and i heard it first hand) joke about how Barack was the best thing that ever happend to them .

MOST appalling to me is the rise of Avigdor Lieberman. Even Americans, who generally give Israel the "benefit of a doubt", are sickened by this guy's platform. What kind of a nation could give a man with policies he supports ANY sort of credibility at all?!

While the US elects Obama to its Presidency, Israel is witnessing the rise of the ethnic-cleansing candidate of Lieberman.... makes me sick to my stomach. Israeli credibility is in SEVERE decline.

I wouldnt get too excited . every election there is a small party that suddenly gets big and in the next elections the shrink back . i think most of the people that voted him are more attracted to his positions regarding crime since it affecting more and more people here and the police gets helpless and weaker and courts release criminals with a slap on the wrist .
no one here takes seriously his so called "ethnic cleansing" agenda .

 

[The Gardener]

I am hoping that what you say is true, Kadosh. My fingers are crossed.

 

[HughJass]

[quote="kadosh"
what makes you think Iran arming is bollocks ?
[/quote]

Nothing we've heard from the neocons and Israeli hardliners about Iran's nuclear program over the last few year is anywhere near the truth of the situation. Seems the right wing in Israel just have their heart set on a war and are going to try and rope as many other 'moderate' countries into it as possible
[youtube:1hau4dds]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6sLbZ_ch3g[/youtube:1hau4dds]

 

[Smooth]

Aussie, listen, you f*****g natzi H.I.V carier, over here when someone tries to f*** our county we f*** back, harder, i want to see how your goverment reacts when somone threat to nuke it...i dont give a f*** who YOU think those lands belong to (Iran/Palastineans/Iraq/Austrelia), nor anyone else on this board for that matter, by bible and by all 3 religion these lands were once bleong to jewish people, and now once again, and thank god (!) for right wings (funny how - if somone doesnt agree with your ideas you call him fascist lol) won majorty of votes, israeli goverment either full with idiot or too liberal fucks that allowed parties like Hadas/Baled/Meretz to take place to cast votes in Israeli goverment, thank god there are people that have eyes and brains that can see how theterror is celebrated on the other side, sadly you muslims spreading like a plague, 1.2b (22% of worlds population) thank god i have my own country (+anotherone .. just in case your Ahmadinejad uncle decides to go A-wall..)
You can call me volgar/blunt/whatever you want, this is what i think, i think that you HATE israel, by reading you posts you dont really care aout zionists (which are happend to be humans too you know) you dont care where we live (while your uncles have 22 countries to f*** away too) you would like to see us all dead, and the faster the better... not gonna happen f****r, i dont care with what "facts" you read on your lefty media you bring to this board, just wanted to make you understand how much hate i have for liberals such as yourself, 50k bc i would probebly eat you with my kanibel "right-wings" friends next to my barbecue souce... :finger2:
(p,s; you know what.. i usally dont give a f*** about politics all-too much, i just cast my righty vote for libermans style parties and thats sums it up, but for some reason i really dont like you, i mean ali pisses me off too with hes libral ideas, but i like him , he makes some since, he also have justice values he wants a solution for both sides, you on the other hand, i have something personal on you aussie, you are one f*****g annoying p.o.s humanbeing {you probebly either a natzi or one of these annoying kids that got smaked one too manny times by people like myself at highschool to turn you exteme libral} you dont seem to care about israelis onceover....i cant put my finger on it, and again if you wouldnt piss me off, with i-dont-know what it is that you have, i wouldnt come here to commet at first place.... just thought i should clear this out of the way...)

 

[CCS]

The united states thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Now we think Iran as enough Uranium to make a nuke or two. I'd hate to do a second Iraq in Iran, and discover that they did not have uranium, or that it was just for electric power. I have some college friends from Iran, and I'd hate to see them get hurt when their parents worked so hard to send them to school in the united states. I heard Isreal destroyed the nuke programs of Syria and a few other muslim countries in swift, night attacks, in and out. But they are having trouble doing that with Iran because the nuke plants are under ground, below populated cities.

 

[Hammy070]

Smooth apparently thinks that objecting to land theft and expulsion of Arabs is a "lefty liberal" position.

This isn't a right wing or left wing issue. Those 'wings' are relevant when a modicum of SOME justice is already present, at which point a political spectrum is used to further refine it and maintain it. But Zionists are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that stealing is wrong. Once they learn that hard lesson, then we can discuss right wing and left wing politics.

 

[Hammy070]

Oh and Smooth - Nobody is threatening your country. You're perfectly eligible to return to it - whether it's Poland, Russia, America etc.

by bible and by all 3 religion these lands were once bleong to jewish people

Bible? I'm sorry I must have an incomplete version of the UN Charter, Geneva Convention etc. I didn't come across any Biblical material.

There's more than 3 religions too.

And the land ONCE belonged to pretty much everyone in the region. The Jews stole it from others, who then lost it to others, and others and so on. The native population is a mix of the original inhabitants along with successive peoples afterwards. Canaanite, Phoenician, Greek, Hebrews, Persian, Roman, Greek, Arab, Ottoman etc. and many more inbetween. The Palestinians are a collective with a shared heritage of all. They speak Arabic for the same reason Jesus spoke Aramaic - Jesus wasn't Assyrian and Palestinians are not from Arabia. William Wallace spoke French, he was't from France. Americans speak English, they don't however have a homeland in England.

Anyway, this debate requires a little more intelligent discourse than what you seem capable of.

 

[Smooth]

Lol Hammy, jewish were persecuted from these lands 2k years ago, go read some history books moron

But Zionists are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that stealing is wrong.

They dont these lands beloongs to them, palastineas are the ones to struggle with the fact the stealing is wrong, and its even worstt when you justify it with terror..! bad bad terrorist.
Thats my land, i was born here and im gona stay here, the local arabs raiders dhould get the f*** back to were they came from (Egypt/Soriya/Jordan/Lebnon/Iran/Iraq or any other home-land out of the 22 countries they got, while fact is , no one wants to take them back, when israel went inside Gazza , Eygipt blocked the gates for the palatinas to run to....)Israel is a fact youll have to live with, do you really think someone give a f*** about the Un?! these basterts let ammo go throw neutral grounds from Eygipt and Soriya, the UN is probebly the main reason for all the wars thats going on here...

Anyway, this debate requires a little more intelligent discourse than what you seem capable of.

what? you doont like me debating with you about it? picking the easy way out to blame it on "intelligent" ?!
awe and ps; f*** you hammy ;>

 

[HughJass]

Aussie, listen, you f****ing natzi H.I.V carier, over here when someone tries to f*ck our county we f*ck back, harder, i want to see how your goverment reacts when somone threat to nuke it...i dont give a f*ck who YOU think those lands belong to (Iran/Palastineans/Iraq/Austrelia), nor anyone else on this board for that matter,

hi cockgobbler!

perhaps if you did a little bit of reading about Iran and it's nuclear program (you'll find that inspectors have given it the OK so far), and about how Iran tried to initiate a peace settlement between Israel and Iran through the Swiss embassy but the Bush administration dismissed it (big surprise) then you wouldn't look like such a major jizzhead. That loudmouth who runs around making all the threats holds ZERO power in Iran but it seems you'd rather not learn the facts and opt for regurgitating the endless jetstream of propaganda you've heard from your dipshit leaders and their army of Goebbels-esk PR tossbags

p.s when is YOUR country going to sign the NPT and let inspectors in to go through your nuclear facility? What have you got to hide from the world?

Looks like you're nation is a proud member of a rather dirty little club including the likes of North Korea, India, Pakistan. Nice!

by bible and by all 3 religion these lands were once bleong to jewish people,

[/quote]

oh yes... the bible. A goldmine of facts.


When you dig up some real evidence that supports your claim that it 'belongs' to the jewish people let us know, current archaelogical evidence shows that Persians and Cannanites were there well before Israelites who were most likely immigrants from Egypt circa 1200BC

 

[Smooth]

Bush administration dismissed it

Good enough reason for me to suspect thier motives...
awe yeah...Iran really wants piece with Israel lol... have not payed any attention to Ahmadinejads statments aout how Israel should be annihilated from the face of the earth, cockgobbler?! (lol)

Looks like you're nation is a proud member of a rather dirty little club including the likes of North Korea, India, Pakistan. Nice!

awe wow, coming from a rilable source souch as yourself.... :jackit:

When you dig up some real evidence that supports your claim that it 'belongs' to the jewish people let us know

i dont know ?!theology ?! :shock:

 

[Smooth]

-----

 

[HughJass]

attention to Ahmadinejads statments aout how Israel should be annihilated from the face of the earth, cockgobbler?!

Unlike many other countries, in Iran the president does not have full control over foreign policy, the armed forces, or the nuclear policy of the Iranian state, which are under the control of the Supreme Leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Iran

i dont know ?!theology ?! :shock:

[/quote]

I think you mean mythology

anyway, I don't know why I'm responding. It seems the only reason your posting in this thread is to let us know your off your meds or half drunk before dinner time

Flame on!

 

[Smooth]

[youtube:1ta44dgh]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLDjGdJC0Q[/youtube:1ta44dgh]

I think you mean mythology

Awe, yet another pearl of avidence coming from your solid bank of evidence which starts and ends in your own mind...

anyway, I don't know why I'm responding. It seems the only reason your posting in this thread is to let us know your off your meds or half drunk before dinner time

Flame on!

Now you hit me where it hurts, you *flamed* me ... im off my meds and drunk..
lol f****r, go :jackit:

 

[HughJass]

Gaza case studies: Weapons use

The BBC News Website looks at case studies of some of the weapons and tactics used in the recent Gaza conflict that human rights groups are concerned may have been violations of international law.

Human rights investigators have been trawling through the rubble in Gaza and gathering testimonies in an attempt to piece together a picture of the way both sides fought and the weapons they used.

International law demands that a distinction is made between combatants and non-combatants, and civilian casualties proportionate to the military gains from the attack in which they occurred.

But Amnesty International has concluded that some Israeli attacks "were directed at civilians or civilian buildings", while "others were disproportionate or indiscriminate".

Dinstinctive white phosphorus shell bursts in Gaza
Amnesty has dubbed Israel's use of white phosphorus as a war crime
As well as the way Israeli forces used white phosphorous in the conflict, which Amnesty has dubbed a war crime, the organisation has also raised concerns about other weapons and their use.

These range from the firing of high explosive artillery shells, which have a large margin of error, in populated areas, to concerns that Israeli forces were trigger-happy in their use of more precise weapons such as tank shells.

There has never been any doubt that Palestinian militants' use of rockets to target civilians in southern Israel was a violation of international humanitarian law.

Human rights investigators are also certain that the militant groups operated from civilian areas, although Amnesty and HRW are yet to publish detailed reports on the issue.

"The testimony and forensic evidence clearly shows Hamas was endangering the civilian population with its tactics," says Marc Garlasco, a senior researcher and military specialist with Human Rights Watch.


The violations of one side do not allow the other side to fight in an illegal manner
Marc Garlasco, Human Rights Watch
He says there were cases of Hamas firing from abandoned Palestinian homes.

"I myself saw Qassam rockets rise up from populated areas, likely fired from between homes," he adds.

Israel says the blame for civilian casualties lies with Hamas for using such tactics.

But Mr Garlasco - echoing the views of several other human rights groups - says this "in no way justifies what Israel did".

"The violations of one side do not allow the other side to fight in an illegal manner."

Israel has not yet responded to the specific allegations, but says it acts to minimise civilian casualties, and that its interpretation of international law is in line with that of other Western nations.

The Israeli military also says it is conducting internal investigations into some of the claims and individual cases, including regarding the use of white phosphorous, that rights groups have raised

.....The Amnesty report says "tank rounds are precision munitions".

"The killing of so many civilians, many in their homes, indicates that these munitions were, at best, used in a reckless or indiscriminate manner," says the report.

Human Rights Watch military analysts say tank shells are so accurate they can be fired into a window from a distance of a mile (1.6km).

Both Amnesty and HRW investigators say there appeared to be a consistent pattern of Palestinian families being killed by Israeli tank shells fired into their homes, apparently as they approached windows or stepped on to balconies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7905320.stm

 

[Smooth]

"Many allegations and accusations, including "war crimes", have been leveled at Israel as a result of its Gaza operation. The LA Times publishes a report from Gaza that is symptomatic of some of the skewed and potentially faulty information being fed to the foreign media as part of widespread efforts to have Israel condemned in the court of public opinion.

Ashraf Khalil writes about "charges of indiscriminate firing on civilians and ambulances and what one international weapons expert called the heaviest use of controversial white phosphorus munitions in the 22-day offensive."

Importantly, he also states that "It is impossible to fully confirm many of the details of what happened here." Indeed, many of the most egregious charges against Israel, subsequently proven to be false, have come from so-called Palestinian "eyewitnesses" or officials with a vested interest in attacking Israel. (See HR's Big Lies interactive feature for some of the worst cases.)

So is it any wonder that Khalil's report is not necessarily an open and shut case?

Khalil states that "Under cover of darkness and phosphorus smoke, ground forces took up positions throughout the neighborhood". At the same time as implying that Israel has deployed phosphorus shells against Gaza's civilian population, Khalil, whether intentionally or not, makes it clear that the phosphorus has been used in the way in which the IDF intended - providing a smokescreen to protect its troops. Khalil cannot have it both ways by accusing Israel of a "war crime" at the same time as describing its use in a perfectly lawful way.

Khalil writes about the alleged shooting of Palestinian Rawhiya Najar:

When it grew light outside, Rawhiya Najar urged her neighbors to crowd onto the roofs of their homes, hoping the sight of civilians would deter the barrage, neighbors said.

The 47-year-old, who had returned from the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca just days before the Israeli offensive began, was known as a forceful and generous personality. She was also a staunch supporter of the local militant groups, and would often leave tea and cakes on her windowsill at night for the fighters who operated in the area.

Using civilians as human shields, including gathering on rooftops, is a well-rehearsed Hamas tactic. Did Rawhiya Najar's support for terror extend beyond tea and cakes on her windowsill? In any case, it is clear that terrorists were present in the area during the alleged incident.

In addition, Khalil describes the efforts of a Palestinian ambulanceman to retreive Najar's body:

before he could approach Rawhiya's body, gunfire from a nearby home forced him to abandon the ambulance and take shelter with residents.

Having established that terrorists regularly operated from that particular area, Khalil fails to establish the source of the gunfire leaving more unanswered questions.

So Israel continues to be villified in the media, based on uncorraborated or unreliable accounts. The IDF's supposed bombing of a UN school has already been proven to be false. How many other stories will also be proven untrue or exaggerated?

Send your considered comments to the LA Times - letters@latimes.com remembering to provide full contact details to get your letter published.
"
http://www.honestreporting.com/arti...s/new/LA_Times_More_Unverified_War_Crimes.asp

 

[HughJass]

The IDF's supposed bombing of a UN school has already been proven to be false. How many other stories will also be proven untrue or exaggerated?

I wonder why Israel felt the need to release footage they knew was not of the attack, to try and prove the claim that militants were firing from the school? Why did they do that?

John Ging, director of operations in the Gaza Strip for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said in an interview this week that the mortar shells had landed in the street immediately beyond the school's walls. Among the dead, he said, were those who had sought shelter in the school but happened to have been standing directly in front of it when the mortar shells landed. "It did kill and injure people who had sought shelter inside the school," he said.

That account was corroborated Friday by Palestinians who said that they had witnessed the attack and that the shells had landed in a large crowd.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03409.html

So instead of shelling a school and bomb shelter, they shelled right outside of one. Nice.