The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[Smooth]

"Israel's Operation Cast Lead dominated the newspapers, airwaves and internet for its duration, with the aftermath still generating headlines and opinion. It is extremely important to expose those cases where the story became agenda-driven or when the media simply got it wrong. This has been graphically illustrated by an about-turn by the UN.

One of the most serious and damaging episodes for Israel during the Gaza conflict centered around charges, amplified by UN spokespeople, that Israel had deliberately targeted a UN school compound, killing 43 civilians sheltering there.

HonestReporting highlighted the Canadian Globe and Mail's investigation that concluded that the school itself was not shelled.

Following the publicity generated by the Globe and Mail report, the UN has been forced to admit that its initial claims were false. According to Ha'aretz:

It seems that the UN has been under pressure to put the record straight after doubts arose that the school had actually been targeted. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, said Monday that the IDF mortar shells fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself.

Gaylord said that the UN "would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school."

As commentator Andrew Bolt writes in response:

But it seems the real story is that 43 people, including at least two Hamas militants, were killed when Israel returned fire from Hamas mortars launched from among a crowd in the street.

You might still not like what occurred. But it is very, very different to what was so widely alleged, and far more forgivable.

And after the earlier evidence of the media repeating pro-Hamas propaganda and gross exaggerations of the death toll in Gaza, especially among civilians, we need to ask again: how much can we trust the coverage of journalists and welfare groups reporting from territory run by terrorists?

We are sure that the truth behind many disputed stories is yet to emerge from Gaza. In the meantime the campaign to set the record straight in the media continues. HonestReporting takes a look back at some of the worst cases of anti-Israel media bias that came to light during the Gaza crisis.
"
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/essential_links.asp

 

[Smooth]

Report after report during the fighting in Gaza stressed how Israel was carelessly killing civilians - and so many of them.

But reports by largely Left-leaning journalists from an area controlled by a terrorist group that could make life very nasty for them and their contacts cannot lightly be trusted. Both of the key claims against Israel turn out to be suspect.

First, Fairfax’s Jason Koutsoukis finds that Hamas, at least, knows well that Israeli troops restrain themselves in a fight - and tried to exploit that restraint in ways that put the lives of innocent Palestinians at risk:

Mohammed Shriteh, 30, is an ambulance driver registered with and trained by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.... Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.

In fact, Hamas reportedly used one hospital as a hideout and headquarters:

Senior Hamas officials ... are believed to be in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City, which was refurbished during Israel’s occupation of the Gaza Strip… During a cabinet meeting a week ago, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin said senior Hamas officials found refuge in the hospital basement because they know Israel would not target it, due to the patients in the upper floors.

This is the same hospital where Mads Gilbert, the Marxist Norwegian doctor who backs terrorist attacks against the US, worked for several days and gave countless interviews accusing Israel of war crimes against largely innocent Palestinians. Oh, and performed in one highly questionable medical intervention for the cameras.

And what of all those innocents that Israel slaughtered? True, hundreds did, tragically, die, as Hamas fought from behind their human shields, but once again it seems the truth was spun:



Italian journalist Lorenzo Cremonesi, who works with the Corriere della serra newspaper, reported Thursday that Hamas had vastly overstated the number of civilian deaths in Gaza. While Hamas claims that 1,330 residents of Gaza were killed in the operation and approximately 5,000 wounded, the real number of casualties was far lower, Cremonesi says.

Cremonesi’s report was based on his own findings after touring hospitals in Gaza and talking to families of those killed or wounded.... Cremonesi estimated that between 500 to 600 people were killed in the fighting. Most were young men between the ages of 17 and 23 who were members of Hamas, he said.

Many hospitals had several empty beds, he reported… The Italian report also confirmed Israeli allegations that Hamas had used civilians as human shields and used ambulances and United Nations buildings in the fighting.

And, typically, the only clear case we have so far of innocent Palestinians being deliberately gunned down during Israel’s invasion has received almost no coverage and zero outrage from the the UN and the rest of the “pro-Palestinian†bureaucracy:


The Palestinian Authority’s Minister of Social Welfare Affairs, Mahmoud Habbash, ...confirmed that Hamas had been torturing and executing Fatah members in the Gaza Strip during and after Operation Cast Lead. Nineteen Palestinians were murdered in cold blood by Hamas, Habbash said, while more than 60 others were shot in the legs.

Ihab Ghissin, spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry in Gaza, confirmed that his men had arrested scores of “collaborators†with Israel during and after the war.... Musa Abu Marzouk, a top Hamas official in Syria, confirmed that his movement had executed “collaborators†during the war

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_gaza_was_spun

 

[Hammy070]

Lol Hammy, jewish were persecuted from these lands 2k years ago, go read some history books moron

Honestly, I don't care.

I care about the people who were persecuted from these lands 50 years ago, right to this day.

Not a single Israeli can prove (not that it's relevant) if their great x 100 ancestor owned land in Palestine, and that none of their ancestors (out of hundreds) was a convert.

I feel absurd even discussing this because no legal basis exists for it to even be a matter of debate in politics or international affairs.

You keep bringing up the Bible as if it's relevant. It is utterly irrelevant, not even a single letter of it. However for you it seems central, it does explain some of Israel's policies though, many of which seem to be directly lifted out of Deuteronomy (20th chapter):

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. And it shall come about, if it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then it shall be that all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD you God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not the cities of these nations nearby. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you..."

The first half deals with places far away (Iran etc) but in Palestine there are further instructions to annhilate everything. No wonder Israel sees no issue in killing 300 babies and 500 women, if it's not full extermination - then it's not even an issue.

Maybe with Lieberman and Netanyahu in office they may adhere more strictly to their mythical textbook.

The whole irony of all this is that Palestinians are the ones being accused of fundamentalism!

They dont these lands beloongs to them, palastineas are the ones to struggle with the fact the stealing is wrong, and its even worstt when you justify it with terror..! bad bad terrorist.

Palestinians are native. Accept it - move on.

Oh and maybe you havn't read this in Genesis:

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Is it just me or is the author clearly acknowledging that the "Promised Land" actually is the LAND OF other people? Many of those people have moved on, become Egyptians, Iraqis, Lebanese etc. Canaanites being Palestinians. But one pesky little group seems to have difficulty moving on. I wonder which one...

A terrorist group in 2000BC and a terrorist group today. Taking what never has belonged to them...ever.

Thats my land, i was born here and im gona stay here, the local arabs raiders dhould get the f*ck back to were they came from

Now you use a whole new set of criteria for yourself - one should be born in the land to have a right to stay in it, and that those coming from outside should in your words "get the f*ck back".

In that case, about 7-8 million Palestinians have a right to be there, and about 3 million Israelis should leave. I thought you were a PRO Zionist? :whistle:

the UN is probebly the main reason for all the wars thats going on here...

Yes I agree completely, the UN should never have recognized Jewish terrorist groups declaring a state in Palestine.

what? you doont like me debating with you about it? picking the easy way out to blame it on "intelligent" ?!
awe and ps; f*ck you hammy ;>

...... :dunno:

 

[Smooth]

Lol Hammy, jewish were persecuted from these lands 2k years ago

Honestly, I don't care.

I see your true colors Shiinnneeee

Not a single Israeli can prove (not that it's relevant) if their great x 100 ancestor owned land in Palestine, and that none of their ancestors (out of hundreds) was a convert.

Dont need to, Theology and Archilogy proves it by themslves... :whistle:

killing 300 babies and 500 women

lol its true, thats what Jewism is all about, and eat them in Passover too :woot:

Palestinians are native. Accept it - move on.

on once beling to Jewish lands, let me answer with your own words:

Honestly, I don't care.

In that case, about 7-8 million Palestinians have a right to be there, and about 3 million Israelis should leave. I thought you were a PRO Zionist?

Awe wow Hammy, you are so clever .. thats exactly what i just said, didnt i ?! and what i think too lol

So by your perspective its fine and good to persecute the Zionists/Jewish out of thier land, yet when they claim it back it is wrong?! and by your prespective we shouldnt move people out of settlements at the west bank, cause its not allowed to move Palastineans away from their lands (regardless to whom its belongs to at first place..) but its cool to move native sraelies out of the west bank?! correct?!
About the bible, even if we count it down for a sec here, you only need to go to Greece Thiology and Egyptian to find evidence to jodaism colture in the area prefectly showing (and also in manny writting dated back then) that the lands were once owned by jewish people (not ot mention the archiology in the area that indecats that jewish people were once all over the lands), what you gonna say next that the holocaust didnt happend?..:jackit:
Theres a that thinng called theology you havent heard about.. wiki it.

Hammy, you two faced f***, your dont even worth my time with your hypocritical anti-Israeli double-standards values, not even opposing an intelectual mind to debate with, get the f*** off my back your being an annoying attention wh***... and read some Theology articles regardng the region before you claim to know anything :gay:

 

[Hammy070]

I don't need to post further replies.

The core purpose my posts on this thread is to highlight the lunacy of Zionism and supporting it, but Smooth seems to be doing a fine job of that just by himself. :bravo:

 

[HughJass]

And what of all those innocents that Israel slaughtered? True, hundreds did, tragically, die, as Hamas fought from behind their human shields, but once again it seems the truth was spun:

You're as dumb as you are persistent.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not), but don't IDF soldiers reguarly take over the homes of Palestinians and use them as observation posts and sniper hides, most of the time without letting the occupants leave? When they do this it-

a)makes the house a legitimate military target
b)put all of the civilians at the home at risk


and yet your government and it's military still have the nerve to insist that they are the embodiment of civilized human behaviour in amidst the neighboring barbarians


So who's using human shields?

 

[Smooth]

The core purpose my posts on this thread is to highlight the lunacy of Zionism and supporting it

I can say the same thing about hamas and tererrorists "lunatic" supporters like yourself.

most of the time without letting the occupants leave?

Thats not true - and i know this one for a fact

So who's using human shields?

The hamas, and they proudly announce it too

[youtube:2e42bxlu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TejVJWSTTpY&feature=related[/youtube:2e42bxlu]

[youtube:2e42bxlu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&feature=related[/youtube:2e42bxlu]

[youtube:2e42bxlu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE&feature=related[/youtube:2e42bxlu]

 

[HughJass]

most of the time without letting the occupants leave?

Thats not true - and i know this one for a fact

[youtube:v0l1odp3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0_5etjggg&feature=related[/youtube:v0l1odp3]

 

[Smooth]

i didnt see a singel soldier in that clip :whistle:
this is exactly what a false media is all about, spin.

but i wonder how come you avoid when i ask you what do you think about hamas using kids as human shields during attecks?

i do answer your questions and backing them with solid proofs but when i say something you dont like you chose to ignore it although you know its true and wrong, what showing your true double standart face, gonna avoid that question again i bet .. :whistle:

 

[HughJass]

i didnt see a singel soldier in that clip :whistle:
this is exactly what a false media is all about, spin.

then watch it again, there are soldiers CLEARLY in the house towards the end of the clip

are you saying that IDF soldiers don't take over people's houses?

but i wonder how come you avoid when i ask you what do you think about hamas using kids as human shields during attecks?

Firstly, you didn't ask me about them, secondly I already posted a BBC article which mentioned it.

 

[Smooth]

are you saying that IDF soldiers don't take over people's houses?

I never said that, i can tell you for a fact ( - no matter what the media say) that the IDF DOES NOT fire behind kids and childern, unlike the hamas.

im really intrested to know whats your take about all this, do you think Hamas is a humanitarian organaziation?
Do you think Hamas doesnt use kids as human shields? do you think it is ok for them to use kids as human shieds?
And finaly, putting ego aside, what do you think is a propper solution? i mean you can talk untill tomarrow and scream your louns out, that wont change the fact that there are people like me that know that jewish people once lived here and those lands belongs to them, so trying to convince me is talking with a wall, YET (!!!) i belive (although what i said) that palastineans DO have right for their own lands here, why/what/how to split for the 2?! i have no idea :dunno: question remains, can YOU come to understanding that Israelis WONT move, and theres need to be a propper solution for both sides? and if you do, what is it in your opinion?

 

[HughJass]

are you saying that IDF soldiers don't take over people's houses?

I never said that, i can tell you for a fact ( - no matter what the media say) that the IDF DOES NOT fire behind kids and childern, unlike the hamas.

Well that video suggests otherwise doesn't it

Do you think Hamas doesnt use kids as human shields?do you think it is ok for them to use kids as human shieds?

I thought I'd made my position on the use of human shields, regardless of who uses them pretty clear.

When your country distributes it's military amongst it's own civilian population and then makes Palestinian civilians targets by imprisoning them in their homes then you've got no right to complain when Hamas does it.

 

[Smooth]

Quote:
Do you think Hamas doesnt use kids as human shields?do you think it is ok for them to use kids as human shieds?


I thought I'd made my position on the use of human shields, regardless of who uses them pretty clear.

Still evading.... :whistle:

When your country distributes it's military amongst it's own civilian population and then makes Palestinian civilians targets by imprisoning them in their homes then you've got no right to complain when Hamas does it.

thats bullshit and if you compare the IDF to a terror organization you are really fucked up in the head.

And finaly, putting ego aside, what do you think is a propper solution? i mean you can talk untill tomarrow and scream your louns out, that wont change the fact that there are people like me that know that jewish people once lived here and those lands belongs to them, so trying to convince me is talking with a wall, YET (!!!) i belive (although what i said) that palastineans DO have right for their own lands here, why/what/how to split for the 2?! i have no idea question remains, can YOU come to understanding that Israelis WONT move, and theres need to be a propper solution for both sides? and if you do, what is it in your opinion?

Bump

Can you get off your high horse and come with a solution? or complaining is all you got? :jackit:

 

[kalbo]

This thread is too long so I was only able to read some of it... but I just wanted to point out why a lot of us North Americans are taking an anti-Israeli side on this war.

We do this because over the years, we were only shown one side of the story through the media. We've been shown images of suicide bombers and dead bodies of innocent Israelis, but we weren't shown images of bulldozers destroying Palestinian homes or soldiers shooting at Palestinian children on the street. It was explained to us the reasons why Israel feels the need to attack Palestine, but we would rarely hear why Palestinians are attacking Israel. We were bombarded with the terms "terrorists" and "suicide bombers"... but we never heard the words "illegal occupation" or "illegal settlements".

And now that the internet has provided us with an easy way to read information from alternative sources, we are now finally seeing the other point of view. We see the disparity between the number of Israeli civilian casualties to the Palestinian civilian casualties and we wonder why so much attention was brought every time an innocent Israeli died whereas when an innocent Palestinian died, nothing was made of it despite the fact that they were getting killed at a much higher rate. Are they trying to tell us that Arab lives are insignificant? Keep in mind, we are a society that prides itself of racial tolerance.

It's hard for us to sympathize for Israel when we now know that we've been lied to because of Israeli lobbyists in the government and the media (I know, we weren't exactly lied to, just not told the whole truth which is just as bad). If they're the innocent ones, then we should be presented the whole truth without any biases and leave it up to us to decide which side to take. But because it's obvious that they're desperate to hide the atrocities they commit, it makes us lean toward them being the guilty party. Also realizing that they have so much control over our media and government doesn't really put them in a good light either.

 

[The Gardener]

Well said, Kalbo.

There's been a serious change of perspective on this in the US as well.

I think Israelis need to read this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/hallinan03032009.html

The oft-repeated attack amongst the liberal fringe in America that Israel is an apartheid state is starting to gain some traction amongst the American mainstream. The "Lieberman solution" may sound good, but it would be suicidal for Israel, as it would totally remove any and all moral currency that the Israeli position has in justifying its existence.... i.e., its HYPOCRITICAL to an exponential degree, and an embrace of the Lieberman solution would result in American REJECTION of its support of Israel.

You Israelis better clean up your act. Get your house in order.

 

[ali777]

This thread is too long so I was only able to read some of it... but I just wanted to point out why a lot of us North Americans are taking an anti-Israeli side on this war.

We do this because over the years, we were only shown one side of the story through the media. We've been shown images of suicide bombers and dead bodies of innocent Israelis, but we weren't shown images of bulldozers destroying Palestinian homes or soldiers shooting at Palestinian children on the street. It was explained to us the reasons why Israel feels the need to attack Palestine, but we would rarely hear why Palestinians are attacking Israel. We were bombarded with the terms "terrorists" and "suicide bombers"... but we never heard the words "illegal occupation" or "illegal settlements".

And now that the internet has provided us with an easy way to read information from alternative sources, we are now finally seeing the other point of view. We see the disparity between the number of Israeli civilian casualties to the Palestinian civilian casualties and we wonder why so much attention was brought every time an innocent Israeli died whereas when an innocent Palestinian died, nothing was made of it despite the fact that they were getting killed at a much higher rate. Are they trying to tell us that Arab lives are insignificant? Keep in mind, we are a society that prides itself of racial tolerance.

It's hard for us to sympathize for Israel when we now know that we've been lied to because of Israeli lobbyists in the government and the media (I know, we weren't exactly lied to, just not told the whole truth which is just as bad). If they're the innocent ones, then we should be presented the whole truth without any biases and leave it up to us to decide which side to take. But because it's obvious that they're desperate to hide the atrocities they commit, it makes us lean toward them being the guilty party. Also realizing that they have so much control over our media and government doesn't really put them in a good light either.

Although you probably right in your assessment of the situation, I find this post a bit disturbing. Let me explain.... (I was going to post this earlier after reading similar posts, but I decided not to)

The Jews have spent the last 60 years trying to acquire some sort of sympathy from the whole world, and they constantly bombard us with messages about the Holocaust. For example, there are so many films made on the subject that it is impossible not to know about the atrocities they suffered.

All that constant propaganda of the last 60 years has put the Jews on the moral high horse, and it would be impossible not to feel sympathy towards the Jews.

However, what they are doing in Palestine started having the reverse effects. It is views like "They control our media", or "They control our financial markets", etc are causing the anti-Semitism to rise again.

I think we came to a point where the "moral high horse" thing doesn't work anymore. Israel needs to come up with new policies to stop the rise of anti-Semitism.

I don't want to sound like I put all the blame with Israel (I strongly opposed their actions in Gaza), but it is them that try to send a message to the world, and I'm saying that they have lost credibility. Israel needs to work on regaining that credibility.

 

[kalbo]

I totally agree with you ali, but just to clarify something on my previous post... when I said "they have so much control over our media", I meant Israeli lobbyists, not the Jews.

 

[Hammy070]

I thought this recent news was exceptional and warranted a post.

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli authorities have made plans for 73,000 new housing units in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, although only a fraction of the proposals has been approved, an anti-settlement group said Monday.

The information, in a new report by Peace Now, indicated that Israel's next government, which right-winger Benjamin Netanyahu is trying to form following last month's election, could have a wide choice of projects for settlement expansion.

Peace Now, which along with the international community views Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank as an obstacle to a viable Palestinian state, said it collated details of housing plans from the government's national mapping website.

The group said the data listed plans for 73,302 new housing units, of which 15,156 units have been approved.

It issued the report before the planned arrival later in the day of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who is to hold talks with Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

"If all the plans are realised, the number of settlers in the territories will be doubled" to 600,000, Peace Now said, cautioning such expansion could destroy chances for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"The government has the power to decide not to carry out plans, or even to halt construction that has begun," the report said.

Responding to the report, the Housing Ministry said Peace Now was making "a big deal out of nothing."

It said the plans gave only a general picture of the potential for settlement building and actual projects and construction were conditional on policies set by the ministers of housing and defence.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/UKNews1/i ... dChannel=0

What kind of message do you send to the world when a primary condition of peace - the removal of illegal settlements or at least a freeze - is met with such an astounding opposite intention. DOUBLING settlers and intensifying construction sends one message: "More war please, no peace, no Palestinian State remotely possible". That is the reality.

Hamas are not the issue at all. Fatah were just as hostile until they finally recognized Israel and agreed to two states - Hamas simply replaced them however. Why? Because when the Palestinian government recognized Israel and agreed to two states, settlements continued, homes were still destroyed, Palestinians still prevented to travel freely or return etc etc.

Israel has a slick PR machine that is ruthlessly effective in manipulating the only public opinion that matters to them: Americas.

However, no amount of PR can convince any logical person who reads news that doubling settlers and building more homes in occupied Palestinian territory this year than Israel itself is somehow "natural growth". A tumour can also grow naturally, but it's still a tumour, the settlements and occupation is the cancerous growth that will spell the end for any peace.

You Israelis better clean up your act. Get your house in order.

How appropriate :whistle:

 

[HughJass]

You better believe that there is someone out there who thinks this conflict can be solved with a good dose of Colon Cleanse®

 

[HughJass]

thats bullshit and if you compare the IDF to a terror organization you are really f***ed up in the head.

What other conclusion can one reach?

Your army has abducted civilians and held them indefinetly without trial, has uses extrajudicial killings as official policy, lied about it's enemies using human shields in Lebanon 2006 and then uses human shields itself (neighbour procedure). Do you need links for all of these?

You regard it as terrorism when Islamists groups use these tactics (as most of us do) but not when Israel does.....is that because you have double standards or is it because you just don't know about them? I've got a feeling it's the latter. I'll give you links if you want to read about them or you can google them yourself.

Can you get off your high horse and come with a solution?

Remove the numpty's in the west bank.