The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

ali777

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The Gardener said:
Iran has regional power ambitions. This is NOT to say that I am claiming that Iran is "evil", or wants to invade everyone, or wants to rule the Mideast... but they have ambitions of being a hegemon in the region. This can be seen in Iran's propping up of movements such as Hizballah, and Hamas. A smouldering Palestine conflict serves several purposes for Iran, from a geopolitical context. First, it preoccupies the US and Israel. Second, it drives a wedge between Israel and Turkey, who are allies... as Iran views Turkey as an emerging geopolitical competitor in the region. Third, it drives a wedge between the US and Europe. Fourth, by preoccupying Israel in Palestine, it gives cover for Iran and Syria to continue to Finlandize Lebanon, which is of GREAT economic benefit to Syria and to Iran (Hizballah). Fifth, by acting in the role as "arsenal of Palestine" it undermines Iran's competitors for regional power (Saudi Arabia and the Sunni bloc), which helps Iran gain credibility on the Arab street.

Disclaimer: I don't want to sound like I'm defending Iran here.... I do believe the Iranian influence in the region is over stated. I don't think Iran has the financial or the military power to influence so many people. Besides, they are not Arabs, they are Persians and historically those two don't mix well.

I'll admit that the Shiite movements in Iraq are most probably backed by Iran, but overall their power is limited.

If anything, one can argue that the tension is economically motivated as most of the Middle Eastern states are oil dependent. Volatility in the region means higher oil prices and they all benefit. I can't prove this point, I'm just saying it's another point that could be argued.

Whatever the reasons and the excuses, I don't think Israel is any better than the rest of them. Iran doesn't go and invade Israel but Israel has been systematically forcing Palestinians out of their land for years. We can argue all day long that Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc are sponsors of terrorism, what does that make the US who supports an invading force?
 

ali777

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The Gardener said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7837826.stm

Checkmate.... lol

And that gives you the excuse to sponsor a state that time after time doesn't respect human rights?
 

Bryan

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The Truth said:
If somebody much more powerfull than me came to Boston to occupy it you bet your *** i'm going to rise up in arms and organize. And if he had much more powerful weaopons than me, and with those weapons he manged to wipe out all my family, you bet your *** i'm going to strap on that vest and blow the sh*t out of him.

I can perfectly understand your blowing the sh*t out of (for example) a group of enemy soldiers tending a checkpoint; but would you also strap on that vest and then step onto a crowded bus with not only men, but also women and children? Would you walk into a pizza parlor with those same women and children and blow the place to smithereens? I think I've made my point.
 

Bryan

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The Truth said:
Smooth said:
The Truth wrote:
You zionists always manipulate the sitution where you guys make it sound like your the ones who are living in an open air prison with hardley any food, water, medcine, and electricity.

M... intresting claim, can you back this up please?

Are you kidding me? I have one word for you "Gaza"

Okay, I give up, and I think everybody else does, too. How does the word "Gaza" back up your claim?
 

Smooth

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monitoradiation said:
Smooth, I'm wondering if you have any documents about their "terrorist activities" from after their majority election in 2006? .

Mmm.... yes:
2006-2007 (at the bottom.....)
2008
Suicide bomb kills nine (i threw there an extra suicide bomb, just incase the Qassams isnt "raw enough material" for you)
there were a few more (hard to keep track of them all.. you know.. :whistle: ) but the Jihad and al-Aqsa claim responsibility for them so i keep them out of the arguement for "fairness-sake" :roll: .
 

mulder

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Following the white phosphorus trail to Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

[youtube:3cyfr3wz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oMwWoPmElU&sdig=1[/youtube:3cyfr3wz]
 

Hammy070

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The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command (MSC) said the ship was to carry 325 standard 20-foot containers of what is listed as "ammunition" on two separate journeys from the Greek port of Astakos to the Israeli port of Ashdod in mid-to-late January.

A "hazardous material" designation on the manifest mentions explosive substances and detonators, but no other details were given.

"Shipping 3,000-odd tons of ammunition in one go is a lot," one broker said, on condition of anonymity.

"This (kind of request) is pretty rare and we haven't seen much of it quoted in the market over the years," he added.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/email/idU ... 5320090109

Israel readily accepts shipping containers that kill innocent people, destroy homes and wreak havoc on everyone.

Last week a boat carrying Cypriot aid to Palestinians in Gaza almost sank after it was involved in a collision with Israeli speedboats in international waters, and had to divert to Lebanon.

Israel then refuses ships from the same point of origin (Greece) which carry supplies to treat dying children and civilians.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUKL5241066

NICOSIA (Reuters) - Israeli warships turned back a Greek-flagged vessel carrying aid for Palestinians in Gaza, activists said on Thursday.

Activists on board the ferry said they were returning to Cyprus after an overnight encounter in international waters in which, they said, Israeli ships threatened to open fire.

The boat carrying 21 people was intercepted about 100 miles northeast of Gaza, said Huwaida Arraf, an organiser of the mission by the U.S. based Free Gaza Movement.

"They got very close and they threatened that if we continued they would open fire on us," Arraf told Reuters from the vessel, now sailing back to Cyprus.

"They surrounded us with about four warships making it very difficult to navigate. They said they would use all means to keep us out of Gaza," she said.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews ... 7120090115

Israel then refuses ships from the same point of origin (Greece) which carry supplies to treat dying children and civilians.

Even a ship from Iran containing medical supplies was turned back. So we have Americans delivering killing equipment, and Iranians delivering medical supplies. You could say Iran is causing instability - to Zionist war crimes that is.

I'm not in the business of making tentative rhetorical statements highlighting fictional links between countries and causes. I am more interested in the factual links, evidential realities that are easily provable. Let us otherwise imagine for a moment that Iran directly delivers weapons to Palestine. This is wrong....because? Is it more acceptable to deliver weapons to the occupier who refuses to disengage?

Mmm.... yes:
2006-2007 (at the bottom.....)
2008
Suicide bomb kills nine (i threw there an extra suicide bomb, just incase the Qassams isnt "raw enough material" for you)
there were a few more (hard to keep track of them all.. you know.. :whistle: ) but the Jihad and al-Aqsa claim responsibility for them so i keep them out of the arguement for "fairness-sake" :roll: .

Did you see my earlier post?

I asked very clearly if you support Zionism which necessarily requires the seizure of Palestinian land, then what is the reasoning you have that nullifies a persons right to their land? This goes to all supporters of Israel. Highlight your reasoning.

I can perfectly understand your blowing the sh*t out of (for example) a group of enemy soldiers tending a checkpoint; but would you also strap on that vest and then step onto a crowded bus with not only men, but also women and children? Would you walk into a pizza parlor with those same women and children and blow the place to smithereens? I think I've made my point.

You've made no point. Hamas do not target Israeli civilians. They target people who stole their land and are preventing them returning. If you had no legal backing by any court, you would readily take arms and do the same, if no one else did it for you in the preferrable way - through a court. You would certainly not stand idly by in a refugee camp, waiting for the unlikely event that they will willingly leave. It's easy for you and me, but I have always had a sense of outrage at injustice, of any kind. I wonder which terrorist group you'd have joined if Zionism seized 39 American States (78% of Palestine was seized). We all know though that if even a neighbourhood in one state were seized by a foreign entity, there would be maximum warfare until one side either surrendered or were annihilated. This is the Western methodology of a response, which you cannot seem to comprehend that another people would have a similar urge. The Palestinians have no weapons because they are not naturally war-like, if weapons and conquest were their goals, they'd have structured their economy to make that a primary goal, but they're farmers, merchants and craftsmen and settled for long ages. Never once did they expect any occupier would turn them into foreigners in their own land.

Here is an overview:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/23150-iran

Iran has regional power ambitions. This is NOT to say that I am claiming that Iran is "evil", or wants to invade everyone, or wants to rule the Mideast... but they have ambitions of being a hegemon in the region. This can be seen in Iran's propping up of movements such as Hizballah, and Hamas. A smouldering Palestine conflict serves several purposes for Iran, from a geopolitical context. First, it preoccupies the US and Israel. Second, it drives a wedge between Israel and Turkey, who are allies... as Iran views Turkey as an emerging geopolitical competitor in the region. Third, it drives a wedge between the US and Europe. Fourth, by preoccupying Israel in Palestine, it gives cover for Iran and Syria to continue to Finlandize Lebanon, which is of GREAT economic benefit to Syria and to Iran (Hizballah). Fifth, by acting in the role as "arsenal of Palestine" it undermines Iran's competitors for regional power (Saudi Arabia and the Sunni bloc), which helps Iran gain credibility on the Arab street.

America has regional power ambitions. This is NOT to say that I am claiming that America is "evil", or wants to invade everyone, or wants to rule the Mideast... but they have ambitions of being a hegemon in the region. This can be seen in America's propping up of movements such as Zionism and Wahhabism. A smouldering Palestine conflict serves several purposes for America, from a geopolitical context. First, it preoccupies the US and Israel - with setting up permanent bases. Second, it drives a wedge between disunited Arab League, who are allies... as Saudi views Iran as an emerging geopolitical competitor in the region. Third, it drives a wedge between Syria and Iran, with the rest of the region. Fourth, by preoccupying Israel in Palestine, it gives cover for the USA and allies to continue to Finlandize Iraq, which is of GREAT economic benefit to America and Israel (Zionists). Fifth, by acting in the role as "arsenal of Israel" it undermines other European-Far East nations for regional power (China for eg), which helps American politicians gain credibility on...whatever street AIPAC is on.

Frankly speaking, I think your assessment of Iran and Syria always being the bad guy and America and Israel having snow white intentions is the position that is most tinged with propaganda. The truth of the matter is that no nations are "evil", and instead, ALL nations have interests and act in accordance with these interests, and America and Israel have both repeatedly taken actions that clearly demonstrate they have interests and goals that extend beyond their own sovereign national borders. Geopolitical analysis requires dispassionate examination of dynamics on a broader scale than is often portrayed in the media. Whenever I hear that "this side is evil" or words to that effect, its a sign of a poor geopolitical analysis. ALL actions of nations are based on interests, NOT on morals.

Frankly speaking, I think your assessment of the US and Israel always being the bad guy and Iran and Syria having snow white intentions is the position that is most tinged wtih propaganda. The truth of the matter is that no nations are "evil", and instead, ALL nations have interests and act in accordance with these interests, and Iran and Syria have both repeatedly taken actions that clearly demonstrate they have interests and goals that extend beyond their own sovereign national borders. Geopolitical analysis requires dispassionate examination of dynamics on a broader scale than is often portrayed in the media. Whenever I hear that "this side is evil" or words to that effect, its a sign of a poor geopolitical analysis. ALL actions of nations are based on interests, NOT on morals.

Frankly speaking, I think your assessment of Iran and Syria always being the bad guy and America and Israel having snow white intentions is the position that is most tinged with propaganda. The truth of the matter is that no nations are "evil", and instead, ALL nations have interests and act in accordance with these interests, and America and Israel have both repeatedly taken actions that clearly demonstrate they have interests and goals that extend beyond their own sovereign national borders. Geopolitical analysis requires dispassionate examination of dynamics on a broader scale than is often portrayed in the media. Whenever I hear that "this side is evil" or words to that effect, its a sign of a poor geopolitical analysis. ALL actions of nations are based on interests, NOT on morals.

If the US didn't support isreal, terrorism would stop.

That's laughable.

If (supposedly if true) Iran/Syria (who are by the way, PART OF THE REGION) stops supporting Palestine, then the conflict will be resolved?
 

The Gardener

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Your attempt to juxtapose my statement might seem clever to you, but its full of logical holes.

Hammy070 said:
A smouldering Palestine conflict serves several purposes for America, from a geopolitical context. First, it preoccupies the US and Israel - with setting up permanent bases.
How does the Palestine conflict have ANYTHING to do with setting up of "permanent bases"?

Hammy070 said:
Second, it drives a wedge between disunited Arab League, who are allies... as Saudi views Iran as an emerging geopolitical competitor in the region.
Huh? Iran isn't IN the Arab League? And to the contrary I would state that Palestine is actually an issue that has brought some unity to otherwise disunited Arab peoples.

Hammy070 said:
Third, it drives a wedge between Syria and Iran, with the rest of the region.
Huh? Syria and Iran have become more united as a result of the Palestine issue. Case in point: Hizbullah.

Hammy070 said:
Fourth, by preoccupying Israel in Palestine, it gives cover for the USA and allies to continue to Finlandize Iraq
What does a conflict in Palestine do to HELP the plight of the US in Iraq? Frankly, conflict in Palestine doesn't help, it INFLAMES the populace in Iraq.

Hammy070 said:
Fifth, by acting in the role as "arsenal of Israel" it undermines other European-Far East nations for regional power (China for eg), which helps American politicians gain credibility on...whatever street AIPAC is on.
That just doesn't make any sense. I don't think China cares much at all about the US' relations with Israel, and I don't think that conflict in Palestine has ANY bearing at all on US-Sino relations.

Hammy070 said:
Frankly speaking, I think your assessment of Iran and Syria always being the bad guy and America and Israel having snow white intentions is the position that is most tinged with propaganda.
Now that's just an absurdity of a statement.... I have never made any such assertion. The most absurd thing about you saying this is that the VERY TEXT of mine that you cut and pasted state that I believe no nations to be inherently evil.

Hammy070 said:
If the US didn't support isreal, terrorism would stop.
That's laughable.
If (supposedly if true) Iran/Syria (who are by the way, PART OF THE REGION) stops supporting Palestine, then the conflict will be resolved?
For the umpteenth time, my goodness HOW many times do I need to SAY this before it sinks into some folks' heads... I think that BOTH sides need to stop. What I don't agree with is the commonly spouted drivel trying to blame it ALL on Israel. That's all.
 

Hammy070

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Between (Syria and Iran) and (rest of the region), obviously you didn't see the point of the above fundamentally, that USA and Israel have interests beyond their borders and will politically attempt to unite/isolate anyone who doesn't submit. Every conflict is linked in this.

I don't see yet why Israel is not primarily to blame, the Palestinians are fighting theft, the Israelis trying to steal. There is no question of Palestinian right to Palestine, there is certainly question for a Polish or Russian or American Jews' right to seize it. Stick to the fundamental issue, rights.
 

The Gardener

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Fair enough... and I agree with the point you make about the ethnicity of many of the incoming Jews to Israel. I do think there is an element of "original sin" here on the shoulders of Israel as a result of its tumultous creation... but, when you look at the broader history of the region, such developments are nothing new. This land has had several "owners" through the years, and has had been invaded and occupied by wave after wave of foreign ethnicities.

There needs to be a comprehensive peace proposal. And it can't just be between Israel and Palestine, in addition to the immediate players, there also needs to be the underlying players as well (Iran, Syria, US). Unless the underlying players want peace, then there won't be peace.

Unfortunately, Iran's "going in" position for such a peace conference is the removal of Israel as a political entity.

So... unfortunately, I'd predict that the rockets won't be ending any time soon.
 

The Gardener

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Yes, I agree... well, except for the unnecessary drama in your verbiage.

I was trying to keep the debate based on logical points, and not stray into a discussion of comparative terror. I'm sure that the net impact of a vest full of nails and shrapnel detonated on a public bus, or in a restaurant, etc, isn't a "pleasant" nor "dignified" way to conduct politics either.
 

Smooth

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The Truth said:
so we agree that isreal is as much a terrorist as the organization that it is accusing of terror

Ok, after going back and forth debating "who inflicts more terror", i think its safe to say that we beat this subject to the ground, but instead of looking at the past, can you guys come up with some logical solution?

we all have different opinions here, maybe we can agree on same solution; so ill start with 2 solutions i came up with, first with my "old solution" which i came to understanding that will never happened and ill explain why, and then with the "new solution" which is a definite solution:

I used to think that there is no solution for our lifetime hence we have to work to create a solid ground for our children to learn to work together, i belive that the best way to do that is to start with proper education, it is more then safe to say that in Israel there is a prpper working educational platform with objective teachers, inside Gaza strip teachers still teach children about the "Zionist devil" that should be killed and blame for everything wrong, they have to teach their kids that we have to share the area in order to live together, there isn't an educational platform (at least not an objective one) inside Gaza, i think support from outside and from Israel too to establish this kind of platform is necessary for peace.

I call this "my old solution" because i don't think it will ever happen, mainly because Hamas was ellected by a vast majority of votes, indicating the way of thinking by majority of the Palestinians, i mean how can you live with someone who belive you have no right to excist?

Hence i came with "my new" solution : one side has to move, now don't get me wrong here, if this is the action that should take place, i truely dont give a f*** who it will be, either Israelis or Palestinians, i don't mind moving out of Israel as long as we get a new neutral lands to leave on, i mean if this is what we managed to achieve in 60 years with enemies surrounding us, i cant even imagine what we can do if we would have bean left alone in a neutral area... as for the holy places (Jerusalem in particular) i think should claimed as a neutral grounds for all three religions to come and go whenever they want, all this under control of the UN (or some sort of international objective organization).
Then Palestinians will have their place on earth surrounded by supportive Arab countries, and we get our peace an quite in some other place on the planet.

So what do you guys think ? anyone can agree on each of the above? if you think these are not "real" solutions, please explaine why? or come with a better solution maybe?
 

The Gardener

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The Truth said:
[quote="The Gardener":3kyd5msx]I was trying to keep the debate based on logical points, and not stray into a discussion of comparative terror
so we agree that isreal is as much a terrorist as the organization that it is accusing of terror[/quote:3kyd5msx]
What I agree with is that you have two sides, neither are inherently "evil", but both are simply trying to express their national interests. Unfortunately, these interests are currently conflicting, which is resulting in needless death.

I think there are groups within both sides... probabably a majority in both sides... who really want to live in peace with each other and who could find a workable solution if given a chance.
 

Bryan

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The Truth said:
Bryan said:
The Truth wrote:
Smooth wrote:
The Truth wrote:
You zionists always manipulate the sitution where you guys make it sound like your the ones who are living in an open air prison with hardley any food, water, medcine, and electricity.

M... intresting claim, can you back this up please?

Are you kidding me? I have one word for you "Gaza"

Okay, I give up, and I think everybody else does, too. How does the word "Gaza" back up your claim?

Please don't speak for everybody. Not everybody has the brain of a monkey. This is from an isreali newspaper called the Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/732995.html

I think I've made my point

No, you haven't made any point at all. Explain your claim (FYI, the Israelis don't live in Gaza, numb-nuts).
 

ali777

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I'm not sure if most of you are aware, but there is a ceasefire at the moment :)

Maybe we could stop going back and forth.... Not that there is anything wrong with a bit of an intellectual debate...

Hopefully, the innocent people in Gaza can get back on their feet and get on with their lives, even if somehow limited.

PS: has the new president made a comment on the subject yet?
PS2: How come no one has written anything about the inauguration yet?
 

The Gardener

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ali777 said:
PS: has the new president made a comment on the subject yet?
ON the immediate situation in Gaza, no. He deliberately withheld comment saying that there is "one President at a time"... and Israel gave him a reprieve from needing to take a stance by making a point of ensuring all of their troops were out of Gaza before he was sworn into office.

The Palestine situation is difficult, and for American Presidents, its generally been politically suicidal. He's not going to have enough "political capital" to get involved in the Palestine situation until he's had some time to get his feet wet in office. If he discredits himself early by trying to get involved in the Palestine issue too early, it might completely sabotage his political ability to do ANYTHING there to improve the situation, much as Bush got paralyzed. He needs to wait, like Clinton did, and in time Clinton had enough gravitas to really get his teeth into the problem and try to solve it, as Clinton tried to do with Arafat and Rabin, and came pretty close to a breakthrough.

As for the broader Palestine/Israel issue, Obama has given the standard boilerplate position... he's a friend of Israel, but wants a peaceful two-state solution.

ali777 said:
PS2: How come no one has written anything about the inauguration yet?
I've been too busy engaging in self-fellatio to a vid clip loop of Bush walking out of the capital for the last time.

I'll tell you one thing. I would pay good money to know what was going through GWB's mind when this picture was shot:

0,,6449453,00.jpg


"Hehehe... I laced the interior drawers of the Oval Office desk with arsenic, you bastard...."


And how about this one... ooooh boy.... this looks like trouble....

0,,6449510,00.jpg
 

The Gardener

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"the Truth", get a grip.

I don't think that if you were part of a wedding party in Jerusalem that had its members ripped up with shrapnel and nails from an exploded Palestinian bomber you would feel any less passionate.

We NEED peace in Palestine and Israel, period. AND this is achievable with good leadership, your attempts to point fingers of hypocritical "higher ground" ring sourly with bitter hypocrisy.

And secondly, I guess that "you" are back, once again. Hope you don't go into meltdown mode this time and totally lose your composure.
 

Smooth

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Other then talking sh*t, can you suggest a propper solution please? what do you think will be the perfect solution in your mind? how do you think we should split the land? and if you want one side to move then please share with rest of us where and how to move ? (if you think Israelis will move then you have to understand that we will need a new country, you cant just let a whole group of people split around the globe right? )

Oh yeah, and please .. can you define a Zionist ? i really have no clue what you mean by that, what exactly a Zionist is for you?

You seem so knowledgable with whats going on here (...) you have any idea what the word "Haaretz" means (the "newsletter" that you linked to)?

Thank you in advance, The Truth.
 
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