The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[HughJass]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Yes, I sometimes forget how hypocritical it is disprove the claim that Israel has a pure and moral army.

Who made THAT claim? LOL That's about the biggest straw man I have EVER seen in my life.

Smooth implied it by saying, quote, "ONE RELAIBALE source where Israel massacre a group of people"

That beethoven tossbag also pulled it out of his arse here

Then you weighed in with your size 12 strawman.

An issue which you addressed with absolutely NO attention paid to the conduct of Hamas.

That's because it wasn't the subject of discussion

And besides, nobody was singing their praises.

I never made any of those claims.

You inferred it by suggesting I wouldn't be disgusted by an act of Islamic terrorism against someone. As clear as day.

Yes, I do. I generally believe that the Israelis are not wanting to deliberately kill Palestinian civilians,

1400 Palestinians are dead, 400 in the first 8 days. With that amount of deaths, the IDF is either indiscriminatly bombing people or is grossly incompetant.

We know the latter is not possible.

Sometimes mistakes are made.

A mistake is something that happens once or twice. When UN facilities get targeted in every conflict that Israel is in, and that's what happens, then it's policy.

Why would anybody defend people who bomb UN schools?

If that's true, then those civilians are putting themselves in harm's way.

Is that the war-time eqiv of "I didn't punch you, you just ran into my fist" ?

You do realize that Gaza is the biggest prison in the world, don't you? That all border crossings are controlled by the Israelis. Where are they supposed to go?

I suppose they could have put themselves out of harms way by running to the UN school that served as a bomb shelter, but that got hit too remember.

 

[HughJass]

(Lol :woot: good luck putting some sense there, i gave up long time ago,

Get a bit much for you, did it?

 

[HughJass]

Re: Max Blumenthal Interviews Israel Supporters At Rally In NY.

What would you do?

Would you stop settlement expansion, draw up boundaries and give Palestine a separate and distinct area/region to govern as its own country? And, at the same time, Israel would have its own separate and distinct boundaries that everyone in that region would respect also?

That doesn't sound bad to me. Do you agree?

Yes, that would be good.

Do you think Arab political organizations would agree with this solution?

They already have, many times over. Hamas have offered to negotiate and the Arab league offer still stands.

Do you think Israel would agree with this solution?

They've rejected everything that involved concessions so far.

Do many of you feel Israel is "expansion" addicted?

Yes. If you keep expanding, even when the highest legal authority in the world says you are breaking international law (many times over) then you're an addict!

Are the Arabs "wipe out Israel" addicted?

[/quote]

Some of them still are and will never see differently, but certainly not as many as they used to be and most would be living outside of Palestine. I think these kind of views get the lionshare of media coverage which gives the impression that all Arabs and Muslims think that way.

Many polls show that the majority of Palestinians support a two state solution, even Hamas about-faced on their position which says something.

 

[Smooth]

Yes you can just go back to the country that yo have a dual citizenship from. You are a citzen from another country. i also bet that you will definetly find a community of jews living there

M.. so by your preception, Palastineans desreve a land and Israelis do not?!.. although if you bother reading the bible you would have know that these lands were once occupied by Jews 2000 years ago.... well in that case im sorry to burst your bubble, but aint gonna happend, i stay here untill there will be peace or a new land will be given to Israelis/Palastineans alone, Jews wont be persecuted again, never ever! get that in to your thick head!. Israel is a nation and as such it deserves a country, going back to persecutions ....lol you wont live to see the day. :jackit:

You didnt answer my question, you just queted an antisemic site you nimrod, i could niptack on it using wiki alone but there is so much garbage there it will take me a whole day so ill just do the first paragraph

illegal occupation of the West Bank in the 1967 and 1973 wars.

LOL "illegal occupation"... this areas was taken in the six day war, after Egypt and Jurdan tried to push us to the sea..."they failed as they were smited to the ground ", and the lands were occupied by Israel, you go on a war you have to consider the posibilities...
read more about the six day war here.

oh yea btw, look what pearl i found there:
"Zionists are experts at propaganda, disinformation, denying facts and outright lying."
quoted from a site that posts pictues of Israel flag with a huge X on it

And the quotes of Moshe Dayan and Ariel Sharon sound like something wrote by a 9 years old, get real, give me some raw facts here instead of a dumass propogamnda site quotes...(yet i guess you cant, can you?! or should i point you back to your earlier posts where you told me to google Gaza to find how Israel describe itself as a poor country?! :whistle: )

Here is a link to Zionizm by Wiki Click
And a quote (we didnt touched):

Zionism is an international political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the historic Land of Israel (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el, "the Land of Israel"), later on called Palestine, and continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.[1]

Zionism is partly based upon strong historical ties and religious traditions linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, where the concept of Jewish nationhood first evolved somewhere between 1200 BCE and the late Second Temple era (i.e. up to 70 CE).[2][3] The modern movement was mainly founded by secular Jews, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe. [4] It is a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism.[5] At first one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to the position of Jews in Europe, Zionism grew rapidly and, after the Holocaust, became the dominant Jewish political movement.

The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in the late 19th century following the publication of "Der Judenstaat".[6] The movement seeks to encourage Jewish migration to the Promised Land and was eventually successful in establishing Israel in 1948, as the homeland for the Jewish people. Its proponents regard its aim as self-determination for the Jewish people.[7]

About 40% of the world's Jews now live in Israel.[8]

no unfortunaltely i dont now what "Haaretz" means. I'm assuming now your going to try to discredit them or something

Read here :Click
On Wiki :
"It is described as liberal or left-wing"
"some Haaretz readers accused Haaretz of being anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and anti-Zionist.[31] Israeli author Irit Linur cancelled her subscription, claiming that Haaretz was anti-Zionist"

(Lol :woot: good luck putting some sense there, i gave up long time ago,

Get a bit much for you, did it?

Ignorance tend to do that
How much can i repeat myself over and over again, i think i made my points clear, you will never convince me that Israel made a singal terrorist act, purely because you have no idea what your talking about, you dont live here and you feed from anti-israeli media, me and people such as yourself will never agree on this matter, there is no doubt the majority of this world hates Israel and Jews in praticular, and will look for anyting to criticisize israel, this site made me realize it alot better, i know that no matter what i say, some poeple such as Aussei and "The Truth" are just a facts that we have to live with, there always will be somone who preachs for hate, doesnt come with solutions, and lies about the facts to promte some sort of personal agenda, these all facts of reality i came to live with now, so it is obvious to me that no matter what i say here wont change ones way of thinking so why do i bother? (yet for some reason i still try to put some sense, but my words falling on death ears).

 

[HughJass]

Ignorance tend to do that
How much can i repeat myself over and over again, i think i made my points clear, you will never convince me that Israel made a singal terrorist act, purely because you have no idea what your talking about, you dont live here and you feed from anti-israeli media, me and people such as yourself will never agree on this matter, there is no doubt the majority of this world hates Israel and Jews in praticular, and will look for anyting to criticisize israel, this site made me realize it alot better, i know that no matter what i say, some poeple such as Aussei and "The Truth" are just a facts that we have to live with, there always will be somone who preachs for hate, doesnt come with solutions, and lies about the facts to promte some sort of personal agenda, these all facts of reality i came to live with now, so it is obvious to me that no matter what i say here wont change ones way of thinking so why do i bother? (yet for some reason i still try to put some sense, but my words falling on death ears).

You haven't responded yet-

ONE RELAIBALE source where Israel massacre a group of people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahr_el_Bakar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Lol all these are great examples how coward these terrorist organizations truly are, hiding within populated areas, behind civiliens, and when you in a war mistaks happens, theres a huge difrance between an army mistakes in war then deliberately killing of innocents, shame you cant see it...or maybe dont want to see it,

Perhaps you'd like to show us the detailed evidence you obviously have that proves militants were hiding amongst the school children and the villagers and the refugees in all of those cases?

are you going to try or just throw your teddy in the corner instead?

 

[The Gardener]

Who said i would feel any less passionte? I just can't stand people who only see one side of an argument.

This statement bears absolutely NO intellectual integrity. For God's sake, again, for the UMPTEENTH time, where have I EVER stated that I do not have support for and affinity for the Palestinian argument in this conflict. I mean, I came right out and said it as clear as day in my second post on the previous page, my quote:

"What I agree with is that you have two sides, neither are inherently "evil", but both are simply trying to express their national interests. Unfortunately, these interests are currently conflicting, which is resulting in needless death."

The way Hamas sees it is they are casualties of war the same way innocent Plaestiainan children getting killed are a casualty of war. Your bias and the way you think is always favorable to one side. Why is it you can't imgaine Palestian children dying and suffering. Do you want me to post pictures of Palestiain little children's heads chopped off? Do you want to see pictures of bullet holes in the heads of 2-year old boys? Do you want to see pictures of a little girl shot with pin point accuracy in her heart? Do you want to see children crying over their dead parents with half their brains hanging out? I can go on and on.

And I could post pictures showing innocent Israelis dead from having their entire body perforated with shrapnel.

What we NEED is for Isreal to give back the Palestiains their land. They should all go back to where they came from.

Sheesh... so much for your desire for people to see two sides of an argument... lol

America and the American people would always be slaves to zionists.

Oh the drama.

Why would anybody defend people who bomb UN schools?

Why would anybody defend people who INTENTIONALLY bomb buses and cafes?

[quote:2xddxod8]Are the Arabs "wipe out Israel" addicted?

Some of them still are and will never see differently, but certainly not as many as they used to be and most would be living outside of Palestine. I think these kind of views get the lionshare of media coverage which gives the impression that all Arabs and Muslims think that way.

Many polls show that the majority of Palestinians support a two state solution, even Hamas about-faced on their position which says something.[/quote:2xddxod8]
I actually don't believe that the Arabs are "wipe out Israel" addicted. Most Arab nations have some sort of diplomatic dialogue with Israel (Lebanon being the only exception I can think of), and even Saudi Arabia and Syria have signalled their willingness to give full diplomatic recognition to Israel if a durable agreement could be struck.

The only side that seems to be stuck in stubborn perpetual disagreement about this is Iran (and, Lebanon by Iranian proxy). And this because the Iranian geopolitical agenda is benefitted by the continued bloodshed in Israel and Palestine.

 

[Obsidian]

The Elder protocols of Zion, America being a slave to zionists :roll: :jackit:

 

[barca FC]

Other then talking sh*t, can you suggest a propper solution please? what do you think will be the perfect solution in your mind? how do you think we should split the land? and if you want one side to move then please share with rest of us where and how to move ? (if you think Israelis will move then you have to understand that we will need a new country, you cant just let a whole group of people split around the globe right? )
.

I really like your new solution...I am a palestinian and I totaly agree that jews have the right to have a land to live on....but not on somebody else's land...dont take that land by force...u can work out somthing with other countries, teke a piece of land from here and from there, and there u go u have a country that is built on peace.....

any way I dont think that this will ever happen. now the more realistic solution is dividing palestine into two halfs.. u get the north and we get the south... with equal access to jerusalem (which is the most important thing for us)... let us build an independent country, give palestinian refugees(like me) a chance to visit or live in our home land, give shebaa farms back to lebanon, and golan Heights back to syria, free the thousands of Palestinian prisoners. u guys do all of these and I dont see why we cannot live in peace then...not just with us I am talking about peace with the whole region.

and trust me this land is destined to be arab and it's gonna be arab someday, not any time soon tho, mabye after a thousand year.. but for now I am sick of fighting and that's the solution that I am proposing.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

The Truth

First post and right to the Off Topic section.

hmmmm

 

[Hammy070]

The "original sin" concept is KEY to any progress. We can't have a situation where Palestinians are demanded to 'recognize' Israel, this means recognizing their land was seized by force and that it was acceptable to do so. Israel wants to legitmize it's creation, Palestinians in doing so sever their rights. Israel MUST acknowledge the seizure of Palestinian land as wrong, this will diffuse the conflict as Palestinians are given that basic acknowledgement. Simply doing that will lessen the desire for mass population movements and/or war. The current situation is a backlash because that "original sin" is viewed as heroic in Israel.

 

[The Gardener]

I totally agree, Hammy. Well said.

 

[monitoradiation]

Israel MUST acknowledge the seizure of Palestinian land as wrong, this will diffuse the conflict as Palestinians are given that basic acknowledgement. Simply doing that will lessen the desire for mass population movements and/or war. The current situation is a backlash because that "original sin" is viewed as heroic in Israel.

Absolutely. It's at least a step in the right direction. Personally I dislike any "land claims" made by any one national group simply based on past ownership; I find that it is a form of tyranny of future generations without representation. I'm all for recognizing land as belonging to all of mankind AND animals and that we should live as cooperatively on it as possible without getting at each other's throats.

There is no sense in trying to seize land so long as everyone has a place to live peacefully. I just cannot see any justification for that which does not involve some old rhetoric/dogma.

 

[Smooth]

You haven't responded yet-

ONE RELAIBALE source where Israel massacre a group of people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahr_el_Bakar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Lol all these are great examples how coward these terrorist organizations truly are, hiding within populated areas, behind civiliens, and when you in a war mistaks happens, theres a huge difrance between an army mistakes in war then deliberately killing of innocents, shame you cant see it...or maybe dont want to see it,

are you going to try or just throw your teddy in the corner instead?

What? now you cant read !? :shock:
queted from your own links
Qana_Massacre
"Both the U.S. and Israel accused Hezbollah of "shielding", the use of civilians as a cover for military activities, which is a breach of the laws of war. The U.S. State Department spokesperson, Nicolas Burns stated, "Hezbollah [is] using civilians as cover. That's a despicable thing to do, an evil thing."[12] and Prime Minister Shimon Peres cited the use of human shielding to blame Hezbollah. On April 18 he said, "They used them as a shield, they used the UN as a shield — the UN admitted it.""

Sabra and Shatila massacre
What are you seriuse? that was between two arab groups, you want to blame Israel of killings whitin the arab comunity too?!...we are not thier policemen/guardian angel, they want to kill eachother, be it! what you want us to do ?! keep then away from eachother?

Again, If civilians hurt its becuase terrorists are hiding amoungs them, is that so hard for you to understand that the terrorists have no conscience nor ethic barriers?? they teach kids to suicide on innocent civilians!!! theres a huge defrance between a mistake made by an army or casualties of attecks on civilians while terrorists hiding behind them!
[youtube:1z45mteq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs[/youtube:1z45mteq]


Aussie, i reponded to you links, now respond to mine !
what do you think of these?

Ashdod Port attack (2004)
Jerusalem bus 2 suicide bombing (2003)
Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing (2003)
Jerusalem bus 20 suicide bombing (2002)
Pat Junction Bus Bombing (2002)
Matza restaurant suicide bombing (2002)
Passover massacre (2002)
Café Moment bombing (2002)
Ben Yehuda Street bombings (2001/1997/1975/1948)
Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing (2001)

or
2006-2007
2008
Suicide bomb kills nine

 

[Obsidian]

Hezbollah are doing (imo) what the N. Vietnamese did. Taking women and children, strapping them with explosives and sending them to the front lines. Soldiers kill the children/women to save more lives, since press is able to be on the front lines more they get pictures of that happening. They print the photo in post with a provocative title, some average Joe then sees it and thinks "Oh them damn Americans, they need to leave the Vietnamese alone."

I think some people also forget in conflicts/wars, there is always collateral damage or civillian deaths.

 

[tembo]

Hammy, what about Muslims who are currently "invading" Sudan and western Pakistan? Do they need to apologize to anyone?

 

[Smooth]

I think some people also forget in conflicts/wars, there is always collateral damage or civillian deaths.

Then people shouldn't complain about suicide bombs. For example lets say at the pizzaria there were mosad or other IDF soliders having lunch or something. If the sucide bomber kills them and other civilians they would be also considered collateral damage or civilian deaths

The Truth, your an idiot, you dont have eyes nor barins, READ THE GODDAMN LINKS i gave you nimrod f***! these places had no soldiers in them you moron, Israeli soldiers eat inside the IDF camps....
i counter everything you say with ourely using Wiki, you give me a propoganda site and qoute it ?!?! so much ignorance in one person, i cant belive you are for real.
nothing that came out of your mouth even resabmle the truth... what an idiot... pew...
If this board gives stage to an ignorate propoganda f*** such as yourself to promote terrorisim and anti-israeli ideas then im out, take care, have very nice day and f*** you anti-Zionist/Jews/shemic/Humans or whatever you call yourself... :finger2:

 

[Cassin]

Calm down guys or this thread gets locked and every post about this subject is gone.

Seriously...it would really be nice to have serious discussions here without people acting like immature idiots behind a monitor.

 

[ali777]

Again, If civilians hurt its becuase terrorists are hiding amoungs them, is that so hard for you to understand that the terrorists have no conscience nor ethic barriers?? they teach kids to suicide on innocent civilians!!! theres a huge defrance between a mistake made by an army or casualties of attecks on civilians while terrorists hiding behind them!

Don't you think the world is fed up of hearing those lines?

There are tones of incidents in this recent conflict where Israel just throws the same claim time after time only for the few UN officials in the area or the locals to deny it. Frankly most of the time I don't believe IDF anymore. For me IDF has lost its credibility.

Now you are thinking, why should I believe the locals, they are the enemy. I don't believe them neither, but the very few "neutrals" that were in the area keep reporting human rights violations. The UN tries to be very political about it, they say "Israel might have committed human rights violations". "Innocent till proven guilty" is a universal concept, and the UN goes with that until each case is investigated. Another point to make here, I don't think the UN investigations will come to anything. What are they going to investigate? The technology and the log books are in the Israelis hands, and they will keep making up some stories to back up the claim that Hamas is using the civilians.

I understand it's a conflict and casualties will happen, but I am just not convinced that Israel did its best to minimise civilian casualties. We are talking about World's best intelligence service here, combined with precision rockets, but they go and use dirty weapons like phosphorus bomb or whatever its called...

PS: The Truth and Smooth: that sort of language is uncalled for... There is a ceasefire now, and let's keep it clean.

 

[Cassin]

PS: The Truth and Smooth: that sort of language is uncalled for... There is a ceasefire now, and let's keep it clean.

Thank you, ali777!

This is indeed a last warning.

It would be so nice to have a serious discussion somewhere on the internet where people could be civil and mature.

 

[Bryan]

No, you haven't made any point at all. Explain your claim (FYI, the Israelis don't live in Gaza, numb-nuts).

Thats my point a**hole. An Isreali newspaper is talking about the dire situaion in Gaza you chump. Even their own people admit the brutality and the cruel sitiuation that gazins are living under.

Go back and carefully re-read your original claim, to see why it has nothing to do with Gaza. Or better yet, have a friend or neighbor who can read explain it to you.