This one should start some debate...

[The Gardener]

I have a philosophical question for the brain trust here at HairLossTalk.com dot com. I have my own answer to it, but first I want to hear what you all have to say about this. It's an interesting question...

Why do we use 5% Minoxidil at all? Why don't all people who intend on using Minoxidil SKIP the 5% and immediately start with Xandrox 15%?

Many people have tossed around the idea here that regrowth with Minoxidil usually only happens in the first couple years. If this is the case, why dick around with the 5%? If two years is all we got, and then our minoxidil card is played for life, why not use the strongest sh*t on the market for those two years and get as much minoxidil and regrowth as chemically possible?

Think about it. I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

 

[Guest]

That is simple, because when the 5% stops offsetting growth and you continue your balding pattern, you can continue to offset growth with the 15% minoxidil. Plus generic 5% minoxidil is waaaaaay cheaper than xandrox 15%. If minoxidil really does only give 2 years of peak benifit and if it doesn't matter if you add a higher concentration after the 2 year mark then 15% would be best. But i don't believe that. And anyways even after the two year peak of the 5%, you are going to have a ton of regrowth that will take several years to reduce back down to baseline. And add several more years on top of that for it to reduce back to baseline in conjunction with a DHT inhibitor.

I am skeptical about the Xandrox 15% because it is a liquid. Notice that the xandrox 12.5% is a lotion? It is a lotion because minoxidil is not stable at such high concentrations. WHy on earth would dr. lee make a 15% minoxidil liquid solution? I have heard of stories of the minoxidil forming into precipitate in the bottle. Basically chunks of minoxidil floating in the solution.

 

[flux]

I think badass has the right idea, but to rephrase it,.

It seems the root of this question is based in the misconception that Minoxidil stops working after two years. In two years, you should just find yourself at the apex of its "offset of extra growth". Sure, 15% might provide even more growth, but if this is the case, you should be able to use at that point and in a year or two down the line find yourself at the same place you would have been if you had been using 15% all along.

This being said, for now 5% is enough, and as badass said, generic minoxidil is " waaaaaay cheaper".

 

[The Gardener]

Good responses, but I don't think that you two saw Bryan's stats on minoxidil and haircount over time.

His stats say that regrowth happens only within the first two years of using minoxidil, period. After that, it is all about maintenance of what your minoxidil was able to regrow during those first two years.

That being said, why not make the most of those first two years and try to obtain maximum exposure to the minoxidil through higher concentration and the Azelaic Acid carrier that Xandrox 15 provides?

 

[flux]

Did anybody in those studies try to induce further growth by upping the strength?

 

[Bryan]

Good responses, but I don't think that you two saw Bryan's stats on minoxidil and haircount over time.

His stats say that regrowth happens only within the first two years of using minoxidil, period. After that, it is all about maintenance of what your minoxidil was able to regrow during those first two years.

I'm a little puzzled by what you're saying, and the stats that you're attributing to me. Let me state my opinion again in a slightly different way:

On average, the regrowth that you get from topical minoxidil tends to reach a peak after about a year or so, according to the majority of minoxidil trials (yes, there are one or two oddball studies that found a somewhat extended period of continuing regrowth, but I guess all we can do is go by the AVERAGE of all the studies). But my current opinion (until any evidence to the contrary comes in) is that the OFFSET OF GROWTH continues to exist as long as you use the minoxidil, even years and years down the line! Even though your hair may be continuing to dwindle again due to the balding process as the years go by (after that initial spurt of regrowth during the very first year or so of minoxidil usage), you still have a little more hair at any given point than you would if you were NOT using minoxidil (that's the famous "offset of growth" which I like to talk about). See what I mean?

That being said, why not make the most of those first two years and try to obtain maximum exposure to the minoxidil through higher concentration and the Azelaic Acid carrier that Xandrox 15 provides?

Aside from that "first two years" issue which I hope I've explained, the basic question here is whether or not Dr. Lee's 15% minoxidil is any better than the ordinary 5% version, and even if it is, is it worth the price difference? I don't think we have answers yet to either one of those questions.

Bryan

 

[youngguy_uk]

i always thought that, say youre on minoxidil 5% for a few years, and then you see your hair density drop below baseline, you could then up it to 15% which would provide another offset of growth? i always thought this was the case. if it is, itd buy you a few extra years.

 

[Guest]

Aside from that "first two years" issue which I hope I've explained, the basic question here is whether or not Dr. Lee's 15% minoxidil is any better than the ordinary 5% version, and even if it is, is it worth the price difference? I don't think we have answers yet to either one of those questions.

Bryan

Well lets just say in thoery that Xandrox 15% is 3 times stronger in stimulating growth than 5% minoxidil. I am not saying that it is, but if 15% was 3 times better then it would seem that what youngguy said would applicable. LIke if after 2 years you no longer are getting drunk off of 5 shots of 80proof vodka, and after the 2 year mark you start having 5 shots of bacardi 151(151proof) then you will be getting much more drunk again. SOrry about the alcohol analagy. I hiope you get what i am trying to say.

 

[Kramer3]

Yeah I agree with what Badass is saying.

I know one of the reason's I didn't start out on it right away was because there was no clinical data to back it and I feared excessive shedding. My hair was barely able to handle the initial shed from 5%, if 15% is really that much more potent then hypothetically the shed would have been that much greater.

 

[Bryan]

Well lets just say in thoery that Xandrox 15% is 3 times stronger in stimulating growth than 5% minoxidil. I am not saying that it is, but if 15% was 3 times better then it would seem that what youngguy said would applicable.

Well, let's assume for the moment that it really IS 3 times more effective than ordinary 5% Rogaine. Why wouldn't you want to start using it and get the extra benefit from the very beginning?

Bryan

 

[The Gardener]

Thanks for your input Bryan, but, let me rephrase what I am trying to express. I understand that minoxidil causes an offset of hairloss for years, ad infiniteum. What I am talking about is not offset, but actual increase in hair count.

Assuming that your only chances for increases in haircount happen during the first year of minoxidil usage, why would you not use the strongest possible concentration of minoxidil during that first year to really grow out as much as you can?

 

[Axon]

My dog has a tail. He wags it sometimes.

 

[ColtsFan]

Ive lost a little faith in Dr Lee with this 15% crap, I went back to the 12.5 due to the unstable solution and fact that in the 4 months I was on it I lost a lot of ground, almost like I wasnt using minoxidil at all for 4 mths just dumping expensive alchohol on my head!

 

[flux]

My dog has a tail. He wags it sometimes.

Somehow I had always thought that it was the tail that was waggin him.

 

[Bismarck]

Assuming that your only chances for increases in haircount happen during the first year of minoxidil usage, why would you not use the strongest possible concentration of minoxidil during that first year to really grow out as much as you can?

The fact is, that these hairs will be lost by time. The studies comparing 2% and 5% Minoxidil showed that 5% growed more hair at the beginning of the treatment but these hairs were lost by time.
In mathematical terms: 2% and 5% are asymptotically the same. I suppose this holds also for 15% or whatever.
The 15% minoxidil is surely the afterburner for regrowing hairs but the question is whether you are really better of after 2 yeares or so. I don't think so.

BISMARCK

 

[extremekicks]

I seriously wanna do 15% xandrox and spironolactone....Help me im on the edge goin on 7 months with my regime and making some growth now along w/ thickness.


Ugh Brian

 

[Axon]

My dog has a tail. He wags it sometimes.

Somehow I had always thought that it was the tail that was waggin him.

<puts on his aluminum helmet>

 

[flux]

Assuming that your only chances for increases in haircount happen during the first year of minoxidil usage, why would you not use the strongest possible concentration of minoxidil during that first year to really grow out as much as you can?

Its not that you only get growth in the first few years..

Its that it only takes a few years to achieve the full effects of minoxidil!

There is a HUGE difference in logic there.

(If it only took two weeks for your hair to reach its minoxidil-induced apex, would these two weeks seem so crucial? Or would it be more apparent that the two weeks is not a "window of opportunity", but instead that you could quit minoxidil, lose the hair but reproduce the effects again later, or perhaps increase the effects with a higher dosage..?)

 

[Healthy Nick]

This is a great thread. I have not started minoxidil yet, but eventually will, so this is an interesting question. Who has started with or used the 15% minoxidil, and what results have you had?

 

[Bryan]

Thanks for your input Bryan, but, let me rephrase what I am trying to express. I understand that minoxidil causes an offset of hairloss for years, ad infiniteum. What I am talking about is not offset, but actual increase in hair count.

Assuming that your only chances for increases in haircount happen during the first year of minoxidil usage, why would you not use the strongest possible concentration of minoxidil during that first year to really grow out as much as you can?

Ok, now I understand what you're saying!

I question the assumption that you're making, which is that once you use ANY quantity at all of topical minoxidil, no further improvements are possible after the first year peak, even with a stronger dose. However, I know of no evidence to support that idea, and it doesn't make any sense to me intuitively. If you used only a 1% solution for a year, for example, would you expect no further improvement if you switch to a 5% solution for the second year? How about if you start with only a 1/10 of 1% solution? Still no possibility of an improvement afterwards with a higher dose?

I see no reason in particular why you couldn't start with a lower dose, with the expectation that you could choose to increase it (with better results) at a later time. However, I agree with you that I don't see much sense in doing that. Why not just go for the max, straight from the beginning?

Bryan