This one should start some debate...

[Bryan]

The fact is, that these hairs will be lost by time.

Well, yes... As I've been saying for a long time, all topical minoxidil does by itself is "buy you some additional time". But if you use it along with a decent antiandrogenic approach, perhaps that "offset of growth" can become relatively permanent!

The studies comparing 2% and 5% Minoxidil showed that 5% growed more hair at the beginning of the treatment but these hairs were lost by time.

I bet you're referring to that relatively new study: "A randomized clinical trial of 5% topical minoxidil versus 2% topical minoxidil and placebo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 2002; 47:377-85. Am I right about that?

The odd thing about that study is that they found a peak regrowth (as measured by haircounts) at the 16 week point, and the haircounts steadily declined through the 32 week and 48 week points! :freaked2: But most trials have shown a peak around the 1-year point! That just goes to show the odd variations that you can find sometimes from one study to another. As I've said a number of times, you really need to look at a BUNCH of studies that examine a particular issue, and kind of take an "average" of all of them.

In mathematical terms: 2% and 5% are asymptotically the same. I suppose this holds also for 15% or whatever.
The 15% minoxidil is surely the afterburner for regrowing hairs but the question is whether you are really better of after 2 yeares or so. I don't think so.

Well, I still say that if you use a decent antiandrogenic approach along with a good growth stimulant, then the differences in the strengths of the various minoxidil products that are available _should_ become a significant factor, for the simple fact that the differences among them may become relatively PERMANENT. However, I'm still waiting for solid evidence that Dr. Lee's 15% minoxidil is any better than plain 5% Rogaine.

Bryan

 

[Bismarck]

OK. Let's do a "thought experiment" (Gedankenexperiment):

Suppose you have regrown hairs with minoxidil. Then you cut away your testicles which is equvialent to 100% DHT inhibition and you also stop applying minoxidil. Will you keep the regrown hairs? I'm not sure since the "minoxidil-Hairs" are artificially kept alive so I think it is possible that they will be lost.
A lot of people using Finasteride and minoxidil wanted to keep their minoxidil-Hairs with Finasteride alone. But that was not possible.


BISMARCK

 

[Odelay]

Answer is simple, studies were done that prove the effects of 5% and other than D.L. there are no real proving studies that show that 15% will produce 3 times the results of the 5% kind. To me it's a waste and against what this website tries to tell people to start believing what a small group of people says is the truth over the majority of people who say 5% is enough. To me using 15% is like taking the full 5mg of Proscar, while the results may or may not be better is it really worth the increased cost and potential for side effects?

 

[Bryan]

OK. Let's do a "thought experiment" (Gedankenexperiment):

I love that word!

Suppose you have regrown hairs with minoxidil. Then you cut away your testicles which is equvialent to 100% DHT inhibition and you also stop applying minoxidil. Will you keep the regrown hairs?

Probably not. BTW, I'm glad this is ONLY a gedankenexperiment!

I'm not sure since the "minoxidil-Hairs" are artificially kept alive so I think it is possible that they will be lost.

I think you are correct.

A lot of people using Finasteride and minoxidil wanted to keep their minoxidil-Hairs with Finasteride alone. But that was not possible.

For those of you who haven't already seen this, here's a scan of that pair of new studies, the second one of which is the case study of the individual who couldn't keep his minoxidil-grown hair just by using finasteride alone:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/finasteride-minoxidil.htm

Bryan

 

[mr_sparkle]

I've just started minoxidil 5% and reading this has given me the impression that if I do regrow hair it will all fall out anyway even if I keep using it so basically we are ALL screwed even if we use the best treatment for hairloss because it all falls out anyway.

Please say this isn't true.

 

[Bismarck]

mr_sparkle,
if you use minoxidil, you have a very good chance of keeping your hairs or even regrowing some. Suppose you can keep your follicles alive for 5 years with minoxidil. Perhaps other more effective treatments will be available in the future ?!?!?!
Some people reportet in the Internet that minoxidil has extremely worsened their front but I would be careful with such statements...

BISMARCK

 

[mr_sparkle]

true. maintenance is an important factor, and I guess in five years time or so I'll be old enough for a transplant.

 

[Guest]

Lets say it is the year 1990. I have a 2x2 inch balding area on my vertex and decide to pick up Rogaine 2%. Somewhere between year 1 and 2 i have my peak results which include a lot of vellous hairs and some terminals. By the time 1994 rolls around I notice that my results have really started to go south, yet i still have a little bit more hair than baseline. Well good thing it is 1994, Roagaine 5% is now available for me. I pick up the 5%, and according to what you guys are saying, it won't do jack sh*t for me because i got my peak regrowth at my 1-2 year mark with 2%? I would think that the 5% would cause those remaining vellous hairs to shed and them come back stronger and thicker and continue to cause regrowth to a new greater peak than the one i achieved with 2%. IF that is the case, and 15% is really 3 times better than 5%, then i would wait several years to add the 15%.

 

[Bryan]

...I pick up the 5%, and according to what you guys are saying, it won't do jack sh*t for me because i got my peak regrowth at my 1-2 year mark with 2%?

Hey, when you say "you guys", don't include ME in that! I think it WILL work better for you at the later date.

I would think that the 5% would cause those remaining vellous hairs to shed and them come back stronger and thicker and continue to cause regrowth to a new greater peak than the one i achieved with 2%.

I disagree with a couple of the particulars of what you say, but I do agree with the basic idea.

IF that is the case, and 15% is really 3 times better than 5%, then i would wait several years to add the 15%.

Why? Wouldn't you want the better results right from the beginning?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

IF that is the case, and 15% is really 3 times better than 5%, then i would wait several years to add the 15%.

Why? Wouldn't you want the better results right from the beginning?

Bryan

Well i would hold off on the 15% because of the cost first of all. Second, if i get nearly complete regrowth with the 5% then if after a few years as results start to wane, i figure i could switch to the 15% and have that bring me regrowth. If i start off with the 15% and it gives me nearly full regrowth, the results will peak then start to dip again, then what will i have left to go to? And Gardener, didn't you say you have your own opinion on this? What is your opinion?

 

[The Gardener]

Yes, I do have an opinion on this.

Basically, there are two aspects to minoxidil... absorbtion into the skin, and exposure to the follicles. In my opinion, this balance was perfected in 5% minoxidil, period.

Using higher concentrations of minoxidil might aid absorbtion, but as far as follicle exposure is concerned, minoxidil is not a matter of 'more exposure equals more growth.' I believe the amount of minoxidil that reaches a follicle is not important. What IS important is that the minoxidil gets to the affected area, the follicle, and is absorbed.

If a follicle is exposed regularly to minoxidil, it will regrow for however long it can. Adding higher concentrations of minoxidil to this already minoxidil-exposed follicle will not help it grow more.

So, yes, I believe that we all have our two years of glory as minoxidil users. After that, it is all about maintenance. That is why I believe that it is CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT that minoxidil users STRONGLY ADHERE to a twice -daily application regime to maximize the effect of the drug during these first two to three years where the virgin follicles have their best chance of being jump-started into life.

After that, using higher concentrations of minoxidil might help in maintenance. That is, someone switching to 15% might be able to keep minoxidil-induced hair a bit longer, but the 15% will NOT add any NEW REGROWTH that was not ALREADY THERE after the first two years of minoxidil-exposure to the follicles. That's Gardener's stand.

Basically, I am a HUGE fan of Dr Lee for his quick-drying 5% formula, and for his spironolactone.. but I think his 15% Xandrox is a pipe dream. People should have fewer wet dreams about 15% Xandrox, and should concentrate MORE on making sure they get in two applications of their tried and true 5% each day, in my opinion.

 

[Bryan]

Second, if i get nearly complete regrowth with the 5% then if after a few years as results start to wane, i figure i could switch to the 15% and have that bring me regrowth. If i start off with the 15% and it gives me nearly full regrowth, the results will peak then start to dip again, then what will i have left to go to?

I really don't see the logic in that. What do you think are the odds that the 5% will get you "nearly complete regrowth"? NONE of these treatments are all that effective for regrowth, when you get right down to it. Rather than worry about maxing-out my regrowth and having nothing to fall back on at a later date, I'd go for the maximum possible effect from the beginning.

If your hairloss is at such an early stage that maxing-out IS actually a serious issue, then you shouldn't be thinking about minoxidil in the first place. You don't use minoxidil in an effort to maintain; you use an antiandrogenic approach (Propecia, spironolactone, fluridil, RU58841, etc.) to maintain.

Bryan

 

[Bismarck]

Bryan, I'd like to know your personal opinion of Dutasteride. It is perhaps the perhaps regrowth treatment in combination with Minoxidil. I've heard of people who said that Dutasteride has shedded their complete front away. What do you think of it ?

BIS

 

[Bryan]

If a follicle is exposed regularly to minoxidil, it will regrow for however long it can. Adding higher concentrations of minoxidil to this already minoxidil-exposed follicle will not help it grow more.

Gardener, there's no evidence for making such a GENERAL claim as that.

While I believe that there is a natural maximum limit to minoxidil doses beyond which further increases will produce no further benefits, you didn't bother to make that clear in your statement. For example, I believe that if you use a 0.1% solution every day for 10 years, you will have achieved a certain maximum effect after that period of time FOR THAT PARTICULAR LOW DOSE. But I believe that if you then switch to a standard 5% solution, your results WILL improve, even after 10 years!

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I've heard of people who said that Dutasteride has shedded their complete front away. What do you think of it ?

I just don't have any explanation for such reports. I don't know what to make of it.

Bryan

 

[The Gardener]

Gardener, there's no evidence for making such a GENERAL claim as that.

I agree that there is no evidence for making the claim that I made... that is why I stated twice that what I said is an opinion, and not a claim. I hope that people who read this understand that what I say is just from my contextual knowledge from reading that I have done... it's just a personal hunch.

While I believe that there is a natural maximum limit to minoxidil doses beyond which further increases will produce no further benefits, you didn't bother to make that clear in your statement.

THAT is exactly what I was trying to say in my 'opinion' but could not express it as concisely as you did.

I believe that if you use a 0.1% solution every day for 10 years, you will have achieved a certain maximum effect after that period of time FOR THAT PARTICULAR LOW DOSE. But I believe that if you then switch to a standard 5% solution, your results WILL improve, even after 10 years!

I agree with the first part of your statement relating to the transition from a .1% to 5%.. but what I am saying, in my 'opinion', is that I have very strong doubts about a long time user of 5% getting any additional improvement in switching to a 15% solution. Now, this person MIGHT get benefits if they had a lack of proper scalp absorbtion of the 5% and the 15% allowed more to absorb into the scalp.. but assuming that the scalp was sufficiently absorbing the 5%, bumping up to a 15% solution would be overkill, in my opinion.

Another way of stating what I am saying is that there is good scientific evidence to show that the results of using 5% is an improvement over using the 2%. But, I have doubts about the results of using 15% over 5%, especially if the user has used the 5% for a long period of time already and his follicles are already past their 'minoxidil peak' period of the first year or two.

Not trying to make a scientific claim here... just throwing out an opinion over a topic that some people here take as gospel, but I have serious doubts about.

 

[The Gardener]

Once we add in DHT inhibitors (I know you hate that term Bryan) we need to throw out the 1 to 3 year “peakâ€￾ would you not agree?

I agree COMPLETELY, Cassin.

 

[Guest]

last orders

I find that after the minoxidil 'peak' has passed alcohol does the trick.

Ty

 

[The Gardener]

Holy sh*t, Ty, is that you?!?

 

[Guest]

It's me Mr G, I'm back!!!

with a new layer of fluffy light velus hair a new suit and a step in my walk, ready to tell the truth and deliver some edutainmant (got that one off one of the many hip-hop self-help forums I visit)


Ty