Topical Finasteride goes systemic too: who has experienced its sides?

[hair2stay]

i am going to experiment with topical finasteride. i think i am a good research subject because i have over the past two years tried oral finasteride at various times, various doses, 1.25mg ED, EOD, 1mg, 0.25mg, 0.25mg EOD and i pretty consistently get very substabtial reduction in libido at around day 10 and then 2-3 days later i lose the ability to maintain an erection, it is very weak and i have to actually focus keeping it, i could never have sex like this. 2 weeks after stopping i always return to baseline

i have also gotten blood work.(after a month on 0.5mg every day) pretty suprisingly my free testosterone almost got cut in half probably due to the rise in SHBG that was previosuly bound to dht(which has a very hogh affijity for it)
from 19ng/dL to 11.4ng/dL reference range 7-19.

my estradiol is highly elevated at 65ng/dL where the reference range is from 10-45 so way out of the range. my total T was reduced from 584ng/dl to 482ng/dl. its weird bc finasteride is supposed to raise T and not affect SHBG but i calculated that it must have almosz tripled my SHBG so in addition to a 70% reducrion in DHT i got a 40% reduction in free testosterone and a 50% raise in estradiol. pretty crazy sh*t and i am not suprised that i have no libido tbh. my T/E ratio is that of a 85 year old man woth hypogonadism no joke

its like finasterde stimulated aromatisation or some sh*t. dht is a 9 on a referencr range of 30-80 so way out as well.

so i guess it will be easy to find out if topical finasteride messes up my hormones in a similar way, i will try 0.05% 1ml ED for at least 2 months and then get blood work done too see the impact.


also i respond extremely well to finasteride(no suprise not only have i barely any DHT but estradiol is good for hair and my free Testosterone is also reduced so very low androgen estrogen ratio, good for hair, bad for erextion and libido) and i notice a few weeks after stopping very apparent itch which finasteride gets completely rid of and strong shedding increase so i efficacy will be very obvious to me as well

I'd love to hear your results too! Please keep us updated! Thank you

 

[hair2stay]

I've been on varying doses of oral finasteride over 13 years; I'm in my mid-40s. 1mg/day stops my hairloss in its tracks. 0.5mg/day causes shedding but I feel better on that dose. 0.67mg/day stopped my shedding and had less side effects than 1mg/day. Latetly, I've been on 1mg EOD and feel fine and my hair doesn't seem to be shedding. I've also been on min 5% 2x/day for the last 13 years and had good regrowth with it.

Starting this morning, I started on a homemade solution of topical finasteride 0.025%/mL and 5% min by dropping three 5mg Proscar tablets in my Kirkland 60mL minoxidil bottle. I'm going to keep taking oral finasteride but only 0.5mg EOD (instead of my current 1mg EOD) to see how things go without going 100% all in on topical because I don't want to lose ground. If I feel like my hairloss continues to be halted and I'm maintaining after a month or two, I'll drop the oral finasteride altogether. I'll report back on this forum on how it goes.

Yes please report back! I'd be very appreciated. All the best!!

 

[hair2stay]

i dont understand how so many people are are literally so illitarate that they can not read a study finding. probably brain fog from finasteride? it goes systemic and after 2 weeks stops accumulating, peak plasma concentrarions are 110-150 times less than with oral finasteride.serum dht is reduced by 35% compared to 55% after 6 months when not more accumulates. that is with 0.5mg applied topically every day. link to the full study that nobody ever talls about:


actually not sure how to upload documents but i have the full study.

after 24 weeks hair counts was similar to oral finasteride, serum dht was reduced by 35% and reached steady state equillibrium after 2 weeks with peak plasma concentration of 48pg/mL and oral finasteride peak plasma concentration was 7166 pg/mL so about a 150 fold less ppasma concentration of finastride.

sample size 160 subjects in placebo and 160 in topical finasteride group, 81 in oral finasteride group

it would be so f*****g weird if a 150 fold reducrion in finasteride concentration in your body does not come with a reduction in negative adverse events. sure dht inhibirion curve is exponential after a low cut off and this is not for dht only as 5AR is saturated around that point.


but serum dht only tells half the picture.

your serum dht is already lower when your scalp dht is reduced because 5AR is highly expressed on scalps of men with AA. so if you nuke thag you already have systemic reduction because the makeup of dhtbin the body is as follows:

20% of dht is synthesised by the cells in the testicles and directly releases into the blood stream as an endeocrine like hormone. the other 80% are as i understand "leakage" from dht rich tissues. dht is a paracrine and autocrine hormone which means various tissues produce it locally and it is being used locally as well.


why do men take 5mg for prostate problems when 0.5mg reduces serum dht almost as much? why do hair counts differ(they do read studies on this) between 5mg, 1mg and 0.25 mg finasteride? people say the serum dht suppression is almost the same yet hair count and prostate size reduction correlates with a higher dose

that is because serum dht means nothing here. tissuedht is all that matters and there is reaskn to believe that there is differences with dosage. 0.25mg EOD nukes serum dht by as much as the full dose yet this is not effecrive for prostate hyperplasia

now the theory, side effects on finasteride come from lower dht in target tissues, for ED the target is the penis, the epithelial cells and the neurons in the penis.

andeogens are important for regulating expression of nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) and PDE. as i understand thsy also have non genomic(act in the cytoplasm and not over transcription factors) on smooth muscle relaxation by regulation of kalium ion concentrations

this is what gives people ED. also tissue integrity but that is a long term effect not short term

so if the theory i suppose is solid, penis tissue may not be different than prostate tissue and a lower dose especially topically may not reduce dht levels in these tissues far enough to have the ED effect.

also notice that in addition to not the entire dose penetration, many of the 5AR molecules, what is the first target tissue they meet? scalp which is rich in 5AR.so low dose topical, a lot od the finasteeide molecules should go into binding with scalp 5AR and thus are useless to bind and reduces dht in the penis or the brain for example


i think people who just state the serum dht reduction are beinf dishonest because of that. sure, to get a really good result we wpuld need to measure tissue dht levels with various doses. for example if scalp dht is higher in 0.01mg oral finasteride than in 1mg oral finasteride then in my opinion it is reasonable to assume that this also occurs in the penis and brain and thus sides might be mitigated and avoided while scalp dht is still low befause it is applied on scalp skin and not the penis skin

You wrote:

"serum dht was reduced by 35% and reached steady state equillibrium after 2 weeks with peak plasma concentration of 48pg/mL and oral finasteride peak plasma concentration was 7166 pg/mL so about a 150 fold less ppasma concentration of finasteride"

Quite a substantial difference! What is the name of the study? Please keep us posted!

 

[badnewsbearer]

You wrote:

"serum dht was reduced by 35% and reached steady state equillibrium after 2 weeks with peak plasma concentration of 48pg/mL and oral finasteride peak plasma concentration was 7166 pg/mL so about a 150 fold less ppasma concentration of finasteride"

Quite a substantial difference! What is the name of the study? Please keep us posted!

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[badnewsbearer]

the studies hqs a conflict of internest for sure but it is randomized placebo controlled and in addition double blinded so the oatients as well as investogators did not know who has the drug. thats the highest form of clinical evidence ans they also have many end points likr appearance and hair count, self assesment and investogator assesement and blood drawn too

 

[hair2stay]

the studies hqs a conflict of internest for sure but it is randomized placebo controlled and in addition double blinded so the oatients as well as investogators did not know who has the drug. thats the highest form of clinical evidence ans they also have many end points likr appearance and hair count, self assesment and investogator assesement and blood drawn too

Very interesting! I'll have a look. I wonder why previous studies showed a higher spike in plasma DHT... It is a solid study even with the conflict you're right: a double blind randomized trial is a SOLID as any form of research AND sample size is high.

Ultimately, you're experience - anecdotal albeit - will be a really neat expirement. Please keep me posted.

Thank you very much!!

 

[badnewsbearer]

Very interesting! I'll have a look. I wonder why previous studies showed a higher spike in plasma DHT... It is a solid study even with the conflict you're right: a double blind randomized trial is a SOLID as any form of research AND sample size is high.

Ultimately, you're experience - anecdotal albeit - will be a really neat expirement. Please keep me posted.

Thank you very much!!

likely because a much highef amount was applied. in other topicak f studies dosages used were 2.5-1mg in this study they uses 0.45mg

i have encountered a problen with making the solution thoigh as i was crushing the proscar tablets into the topical minoxidil bottle it seems to f*** up the dropper and clogs up irreversibly. i need to buy new bottles now

can anybods recommend a good bottle for topicak not this low quality garbage? or a dropper thag is preferably more sensitive and were you can drop small amounts not just 1/6th of a ml? my supplies here are pretty garbage

 

[hair2stay]

likely because a much highef amount was applied. in other topicak f studies dosages used were 2.5-1mg in this study they uses 0.45mg

i have encountered a problen with making the solution thoigh as i was crushing the proscar tablets into the topical minoxidil bottle it seems to f*** up the dropper and clogs up irreversibly. i need to buy new bottles now

can anybods recommend a good bottle for topicak not this low quality garbage? or a dropper thag is preferably more sensitive and were you can drop small amounts not just 1/6th of a ml? my supplies here are pretty garbage

I'm certain I saw a study with 0.2% DHT....maybe not..

I've gotten glass droppers off of Amazon but I'm not sure. I'm going to have same issue with filler clogging. At least with glass I can wash out, maybe boil.

You refer to serum and plasma DHT. these are both measures of systemic DHT right? Can you explain? Thank you

 

[badnewsbearer]

I'm certain I saw a study with 0.2% DHT....maybe not..

I've gotten glass droppers off of Amazon but I'm not sure. I'm going to have same issue with filler clogging. At least with glass I can wash out, maybe boil.

You refer to serum and plasma DHT. these are both measures of systemic DHT right? Can you explain? Thank you

yes I am referring to DHT circulation in the blood

Difference between Serum and Plasma

Difference between Serum and Plasma. Serum is the fluid from blood without the clotting factors while Plasma is the fluid that contain clotting factors.

microbiologyinfo.com

note that just like testosterone, dht is bound to SHBG even more so than T so free DHT is what your body would actually have available. also not that serum dht is not the entire picture, I think the best predictor would be tissue dht and for side effects, the best predictor to not get any sides is if you have low impact on localized dht in organs like the penis and the brain. you can have marked serum dht reduction but a less evident decrease in certain target organs. you want to maximize the DHT reduction in the scalp and minimize it in the penis and the brain.

sure, very small doses like 0.2mg of finasteride can cause 60% reduction of plasma, just about 5-10% less than 1mg. but what about those tissue dht? evidently 0.25mg causes less hair count recovery as 5mg, markedly less so which means there is higher localized androgenic activity in the scalp with lower dose despite comparable serum impact. if this is true for scalp it can be true for the penis and the nervous system as well. basically when people say it goes systemic they dont know what they are talking about.

however sides I think cannot be totally avoided but the study I posted I think had a higher drop out rate due to sides in the placebo group and despite high dropout rate in all groups this was quite evident.


i am going to try the glass droppers as well. it is very hard to use spray when you need to cover a NW5 area if you only want to use 1-2ml

 

[hair2stay]

yes I am referring to DHT circulation in the blood

Difference between Serum and Plasma

Difference between Serum and Plasma. Serum is the fluid from blood without the clotting factors while Plasma is the fluid that contain clotting factors.

microbiologyinfo.com

note that just like testosterone, dht is bound to SHBG even more so than T so free DHT is what your body would actually have available. also not that serum dht is not the entire picture, I think the best predictor would be tissue dht and for side effects, the best predictor to not get any sides is if you have low impact on localized dht in organs like the penis and the brain. you can have marked serum dht reduction but a less evident decrease in certain target organs. you want to maximize the DHT reduction in the scalp and minimize it in the penis and the brain.

sure, very small doses like 0.2mg of finasteride can cause 60% reduction of plasma, just about 5-10% less than 1mg. but what about those tissue dht? evidently 0.25mg causes less hair count recovery as 5mg, markedly less so which means there is higher localized androgenic activity in the scalp with lower dose despite comparable serum impact. if this is true for scalp it can be true for the penis and the nervous system as well. basically when people say it goes systemic they dont know what they are talking about.

however sides I think cannot be totally avoided but the study I posted I think had a higher drop out rate due to sides in the placebo group and despite high dropout rate in all groups this was quite evident.


i am going to try the glass droppers as well. it is very hard to use spray when you need to cover a NW5 area if you only want to use 1-2ml

The glass droppers seem to 'drop' much more sparingly so they should work fine. Can you clean your plastic dropper? I'm going to apply a .25 mg in two mil ONE time daily though I might throw in a few more pills to make up for the residue that gets caught in the dropper

I'm going to use 30 ml of minoxidil and 30 ml of ethanol and then throw in 15 - 0.5 mg pills plus a few extra.

Is propylene gycol necessary or coud I subtsutute any other type of oil say a hemp oil? Thanks!

 

[badnewsbearer]

The glass droppers seem to 'drop' much more sparingly so they should work fine. Can you clean your plastic dropper? I'm going to apply a .25 mg in two mil ONE time daily though I might throw in a few more pills to make up for the residue that gets caught in the dropper

I'm going to use 30 ml of minoxidil and 30 ml of ethanol and then throw in 15 - 0.5 mg pills plus a few extra.

Is propylene gycol necessary or coud I subtsutute any other type of oil say a hemp oil? Thanks!

well i am using minoxidil bottles and ths dropper that comes with it but it completely cloggs the dropper and now i need to throw it in the garbage bc its some serious cheap low quakity product

 

[debyne]

well i am using minoxidil bottles and ths dropper that comes with it but it completely cloggs the dropper and now i need to throw it in the garbage bc its some serious cheap low quakity product

Are you in the US? I just started on topical and I'm just using my Kirkland min to mix it, and I've had no problems so far. How many pills are you adding? Proscar is the way to go since it's far fewer pills with filler to dissolve.

 

[badnewsbearer]

Are you in the US? I just started on topical and I'm just using my Kirkland min to mix it, and I've had no problems so far. How many pills are you adding? Proscar is the way to go since it's far fewer pills with filler to dissolve.

3 5mg proscar pills in a kirkland bottle. it cloggs the dropper

 

[badnewsbearer]

tried to apply today ans honestly i might just shave my head at this point even tho i hate it. i am so young and have a completely thinned out scalp, with oral i just takd the pill, topicals suck so much. i have the prince william type hair loss where everything is thinning on top all at once. ihave receeded temples too but everything on top will be gone in a year or two. applyinga ropical is such a mess tbh. andat the dose i use it either wont eork or give me erectile dysfunction and trans woman estrasiol levels. trulyremarkable how genetically screwed one can be from every angle.

how do you even go about applying a topical to a NW6 pattern when you have no buzz cut or arent alreadx shaved? i like my hair at 2 inch length and i have trouble covering the entire scalp areas affected :/

 

[badnewsbearer]

i dont have mich hope in any other treatment eithet they will either all have sexual side effects or will barely work like CB or they will be topical whivh is hard to use if you have a NW6 thinning area. topicalfinasteride could not even outperform oral finasteride in most studies at a 0.25% concentration, imagine using 1/10th of that, you still get erectile dysfunction but little hair improvement, thats fantastic isnt it.

some studies suggest there is even higher systemic dht reduction in topical. howcan this be? well, finasteride is metabolized in the liver and those metabolites have lower potency and affinity for 5AR.if you use topical you have no first pass metabolism and thus are draling with a more potent inhibitor directly into the bloodstream. liver inactivates about 40% of finasteride

it is supposed to be the perfect combo, keep hair no sides but i think ironically it is keep some hair and get sides eventually.

there is just not enoigh good date out there because nobody gives a sh*t. plus it is a hell to make, in my topicak finasteride rhere is residue at the bottom of the bottle thats why the dropper is so clogged up, it just did not dissolve, i do not know how to make it perfectly dissolve.

i think i will try oral finasteride very low dose like 0.25mg three times a week and if i still get ED then ill just quit and accept that ill be just unattractive. i cannot win against this perfect constellation of genetics

 

[badnewsbearer]

or ill just try the premade 0.1% version before i give up. sadly in my country there is no compounding pharmacy so i have to rely on capitalist *** rats that have not contributes one bitnto hair loss reseaech but now want to reap the reward with their "in HouSe MaDe ProPriEtArY ToPiCaL finasteride FoRtIfiEd WiTh 3.33% MinoXiDiL" for only 70$ per 50ml

 

[hair2stay]

i dont have mich hope in any other treatment eithet they will either all have sexual side effects or will barely work like CB or they will be topical whivh is hard to use if you have a NW6 thinning area. topicalfinasteride could not even outperform oral finasteride in most studies at a 0.25% concentration, imagine using 1/10th of that, you still get erectile dysfunction but little hair improvement, thats fantastic isnt it.

some studies suggest there is even higher systemic dht reduction in topical. howcan this be? well, finasteride is metabolized in the liver and those metabolites have lower potency and affinity for 5AR.if you use topical you have no first pass metabolism and thus are draling with a more potent inhibitor directly into the bloodstream. liver inactivates about 40% of finasteride

it is supposed to be the perfect combo, keep hair no sides but i think ironically it is keep some hair and get sides eventually.

there is just not enoigh good date out there because nobody gives a sh*t. plus it is a hell to make, in my topicak finasteride rhere is residue at the bottom of the bottle thats why the dropper is so clogged up, it just did not dissolve, i do not know how to make it perfectly dissolve.

i think i will try oral finasteride very low dose like 0.25mg three times a week and if i still get ED then ill just quit and accept that ill be just unattractive. i cannot win against this perfect constellation of genetics

What I recommend is using a 100 ml bottle with 30ml of minoxidil and 30ml of ethanol (+ my 15 * 0.5 pills crushed). Thus you can shake up the bottle every time to prevent just sucking up the pill sediment which will fall to bottom. Then 2ml every day.

I'm sorry for your frustrations....it really does suck being in this position. Are you giving up on topical because of the mess or because you believe it will actually absorb more? What about the recent study that showed drastically reduced plasma levels with topical?

 

[badnewsbearer]

What I recommend is using a 100 ml bottle with 30ml of minoxidil and 30ml of ethanol (+ my 15 * 0.5 pills crushed). Thus you can shake up the bottle every time to prevent just sucking up the pill sediment which will fall to bottom. Then 2ml every day.

I'm sorry for your frustrations....it really does suck being in this position. Are you giving up on topical because of the mess or because you believe it will actually absorb more? What about the recent study that showed drastically reduced plasma levels with topical?

a combination. for example if i just had a thinning crown or hairline i would be extatic about topical finasteride because you do not have to cover much, it is easy to apply and you can use small amounts. with my case i have advanced thinning in NW6 pattern but i still have 2 inch hair length and receesing hairline. it is quitr a mess to apply and really hit all the scalp areas that are actually affected. plussince i need to use 2-3ml i will end up with higher mg of finssteride and since i am sensitive to it i assume it will jzst give me ED again.

the preparation is also a hassle and i do not want to buy this brand sh*t thats been popping up recently because i do not eant to use minoxidil because i want to see how well the finasteride is working. why do thex put in 5% minoxidil? because these hipsters that buy off those home delivery services like hims do not eant to wait until finasteride shows results, minoxidil will give fast results and thus guwrantee higher complience. but how do i know whether its working or whether i am just pumping the last hair s with minoxidil?

they do not offer topical finasteride only anywhwre and only in 2.5-1% dose anyway.


i would need to make this at home from the ground up which i would if there werent the other concerns i mentioned before. soreally a combination of factors why i am not so excited about it

 

[hair2stay]

a combination. for example if i just had a thinning crown or hairline i would be extatic about topical finasteride because you do not have to cover much, it is easy to apply and you can use small amounts. with my case i have advanced thinning in NW6 pattern but i still have 2 inch hair length and receesing hairline. it is quitr a mess to apply and really hit all the scalp areas that are actually affected. plussince i need to use 2-3ml i will end up with higher mg of finssteride and since i am sensitive to it i assume it will jzst give me ED again.

the preparation is also a hassle and i do not want to buy this brand sh*t thats been popping up recently because i do not eant to use minoxidil because i want to see how well the finasteride is working. why do thex put in 5% minoxidil? because these hipsters that buy off those home delivery services like hims do not eant to wait until finasteride shows results, minoxidil will give fast results and thus guwrantee higher complience. but how do i know whether its working or whether i am just pumping the last hair s with minoxidil?

they do not offer topical finasteride only anywhwre and only in 2.5-1% dose anyway.


i would need to make this at home from the ground up which i would if there werent the other concerns i mentioned before. soreally a combination of factors why i am not so excited about it

Why not add more carrier oil? For example use 60ml of ethanol and 60ml of say MCT oil BUT same amount of finasteride...so it'll be a weaker solution but you are using more of it so same potency... Like drinking 2 litres of 5% beer instead of 1 litre of 10%.....

Maybe you won't get sides from topical. We're not totally sure on what causes sides...so maybe topical - though it goes systemic - may result in less sides.

It's worth a try. You can add different types of oil (castor oil for example) too such that even if it's messy, it's still healthy. 20 minutes before bed.... Or use more ethanol and it will absorb and dry very quickly

You got this man. We can't give up

 

[badnewsbearer]

Why not add more carrier oil? For example use 60ml of ethanol and 60ml of say MCT oil BUT same amount of finasteride...so it'll be a weaker solution but you are using more of it so same potency... Like drinking 2 litres of 5% beer instead of 1 litre of 10%.....

Maybe you won't get sides from topical. We're not totally sure on what causes sides...so maybe topical - though it goes systemic - may result in less sides.

It's worth a try. You can add different types of oil (castor oil for example) too such that even if it's messy, it's still healthy. 20 minutes before bed.... Or use more ethanol and it will absorb and dry very quickly

You got this man. We can't give up

i am not sure id i want to use ethanol long term on my skin. i still have not found the right vehicle. i would prefer a gel over a watery solution becsuse that will be easier to apply. like higher viscosity would be appropriate without hindering absorption.

you are right i can dillute further but then i am afraid whether it will still even work. in the studies they used 0.25% i am already at one tenth of it, they use tiny amounts however so they ended up applying 0.5mg per day

so maybe i can do 0.025% in 2ml so also 0.5mg

i think what is encouraging is that during the 6 month trial nobody in the topical finasteride group quit due to sides even tho serum dht was lowered by 35% after 2 weeks and remained there constant. in oral finasteride about 5? % dropped due to sides which is consistent eith other studies (sexual sides 4-8% in high quality studies)

furthermore 4% reported no libido on oral finasteride while nobody reported this on topical shich was even better than placebo.

as i said before i think serum dht is only half important, in my case obviously my elevated estradiol and lower free T due to increase in SHBG due to not binding to DHT anymore may be the culprit and a 1/3rd less reduction in DHT may do the trick especially if tissue dht is even less suppress than serum(penis tissue)

so i am still semi hopeful about it but the application mess really bumbed me out so i am continuing on 1.25mg oral until christmas holidays and then i try to get all the materials to make my own topical solution