Topical Finasteride goes systemic too: who has experienced its sides?

hair2stay

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i am not sure id i want to use ethanol long term on my skin. i still have not found the right vehicle. i would prefer a gel over a watery solution becsuse that will be easier to apply. like higher viscosity would be appropriate without hindering absorption.

you are right i can dillute further but then i am afraid whether it will still even work. in the studies they used 0.25% i am already at one tenth of it, they use tiny amounts however so they ended up applying 0.5mg per day

so maybe i can do 0.025% in 2ml so also 0.5mg

i think what is encouraging is that during the 6 month trial nobody in the topical finasteride group quit due to sides even tho serum dht was lowered by 35% after 2 weeks and remained there constant. in oral finasteride about 5? % dropped due to sides which is consistent eith other studies (sexual sides 4-8% in high quality studies)

furthermore 4% reported no libido on oral finasteride while nobody reported this on topical shich was even better than placebo.

as i said before i think serum dht is only half important, in my case obviously my elevated estradiol and lower free T due to increase in SHBG due to not binding to DHT anymore may be the culprit and a 1/3rd less reduction in DHT may do the trick especially if tissue dht is even less suppress than serum(penis tissue)

so i am still semi hopeful about it but the application mess really bumbed me out so i am continuing on 1.25mg oral until christmas holidays and then i try to get all the materials to make my own topical solution
I'm thinking a coconut oil.. I get you on the idea of using ethanol long term...

I think I'm misunderstanding the study. Let's say I mix a 0.25mg pill in 5 ml of liquid. This is now far less than 0.0.25% BUT I'm still applying a 0.25mg tab right?

So does percentage matter or is it total mg per liquid? Does it matter if I use only a 0.25 mg per day in 1ml or 5ml

I see though that the study WAS 0.5MG total per day. Good point. You think twice a day or once a day makes a big difference?

Thanks - I'll keep my eyes and mind open for a gel like solution. I think a little ethanol will help absorption. I also think a gel will sit longer on the scalp allowing more time to absorb whereas say a water solution would just drop off quickly with little absorption
 

badnewsbearer

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i have read a lot of people on reddit getting sexual sides from ropical finasteride as well. strange that in the study referenced nobody quite due to sides yet people have these unbareable sides with even bad ED. i cannot comprehens how some can take 5mg dutasteride and RU and others cannit even use a micro dose of finasteride, genetics is indeed the most retarded and fucked up thing on planet earth. intelligent designer my ***
 

badnewsbearer

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but peopke who argue "topical still go sytemic" are the height of creating in low iq, its obviously not as easy as that. when someone applies 0.005% a day i dont think its even possible for enoigh finasteride to accumulate in tissues over time, pharmacodynamics can not support this
 

hair2stay

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i honeatly dont know but i feel lime those gels might hinder absorption

but peopke who argue "topical still go sytemic" are the height of creating in low iq, its obviously not as easy as that. when someone applies 0.005% a day i dont think its even possible for enoigh finasteride to accumulate in tissues over time, pharmacodynamics can not support this
But it does go systemic right? How else do we get sides from topical?
 

badnewsbearer

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But it does go systemic right? How else do we get sides from topical?
well even if it does not go into circulation serum dht will b lower. why? dht is not a classical hormone that us produced by a type of cell and then released into the blood, it is locally acting and the serum dht is 20% testicle release and 80% washaway from various tissues. so if you inhibit scalp dht by 70% that alone will have an effect on circulating dht but that leaves no clue about the dht in your penis or your brain.

of course that is very dose dependent and there will be doses like more than 1mg applied topically where there will be accumukation and thus dht reduction in other tissues leading to rapid decline in seruk dht and side effects. hiwever accumulation is not indefinite contrary to what people on tressless like to claim, finasteride has a short halflife of 6 hours and 5AR will be synthesized continously anyway. as the study above has shown after around 2 weeks you will reach peak plasma levels that means there is no more accumulation after 2 weeks and dht is maximally suppressed. at 0.5mg that is 35% and at 2.5mg its 60% ao it shows how dosing does have an effect with topical finasteride more so than with oral. dosing is key


and again even with oral, 1mg leqds to superior hair counts than 0.25mg despite almost the same serum dht reduction. but it seems to me that tissue dht and 5AR activity is more affected ny dosage than serum levels. thus ifbyou have less hair growth by logica you should also have less sides. topical should provide an intermediate, good hair and low sides.

some aides i could deal with but not the level of ED i get on oral
 

hair2stay

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well even if it does not go into circulation serum dht will b lower. why? dht is not a classical hormone that us produced by a type of cell and then released into the blood, it is locally acting and the serum dht is 20% testicle release and 80% washaway from various tissues. so if you inhibit scalp dht by 70% that alone will have an effect on circulating dht but that leaves no clue about the dht in your penis or your brain.

of course that is very dose dependent and there will be doses like more than 1mg applied topically where there will be accumukation and thus dht reduction in other tissues leading to rapid decline in seruk dht and side effects. hiwever accumulation is not indefinite contrary to what people on tressless like to claim, finasteride has a short halflife of 6 hours and 5AR will be synthesized continously anyway. as the study above has shown after around 2 weeks you will reach peak plasma levels that means there is no more accumulation after 2 weeks and dht is maximally suppressed. at 0.5mg that is 35% and at 2.5mg its 60% ao it shows how dosing does have an effect with topical finasteride more so than with oral. dosing is key


and again even with oral, 1mg leqds to superior hair counts than 0.25mg despite almost the same serum dht reduction. but it seems to me that tissue dht and 5AR activity is more affected ny dosage than serum levels. thus ifbyou have less hair growth by logica you should also have less sides. topical should provide an intermediate, good hair and low sides.

some aides i could deal with but not the level of ED i get on oral
You know alot about this...do you think taking a few days off after the two week Mark is a good idea? Thus reduce the plasma level again and maintain lower doses.... Thought? Thank you for your knowledge
 

badnewsbearer

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You know alot about this...do you think taking a few days off after the two week Mark is a good idea? Thus reduce the plasma level again and maintain lower doses.... Thought? Thank you for your knowledge
i dont know tbh. uts very comparable after 1 week already anyway so probably if you get sides id judt lower the comcentration further
 

badnewsbearer

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what do people think about this data





basically for this theory to work you have to assume that in the first study with 0.05mg the result is an outliner since it is very unlikely that the negative trend of lower dose lower scale dht does not continue at 0.05mg and the sample size is also high as well as the confidence interval being highest.

so lower dose leads to lower reduction of tissue dht which then leads to lower hair count as shown in the second study, 1mg is superior to 0.2mg on ALL end points(so much to the "lower dose just as effective") which is likely not true. if it was true why would Merck not have made 0.2mg pills? they could have set the price anyway, there was no law what a gram of finasteride should cost. clearly because in this dose ranging study they have found out that 1mg is the best dosage for hair growth

so if it is the best dose and scalp dht is higher in a lower dose, it means there is more local 5AR activity which in my opinion should also mean less side effects because this should hold true for other tissues as well. and because of that 5mg is used in prostate hyperplasia

they have also shown 0.1mg (where some men claim to have side effects on online forums) that serum and scalp dht were not suppressed significantly compared to placebo and that hair count (while better) this was not statistically significant.

so 0.1mg should not lead to systemic side effects even after many months because there is not enough accumulation to outcompete the half life and reproduction of 5AR. now, if you apply topical about 20% should reach the blood stream but the scalp is the first tissue affected so a lot of 5AR should be binding to finasteride immediately. the 20% enters the blood stream so if we apply 0.5mg about 0.1mg should enter the blood stream which has not been shown to markedly impact serum dht in the dose ranging(only 10%). but in the recent study a 35% reduction in serum dht could be seen

this could mean two things: first, topical penetrates more than by 20% but also obviously not all of it penetrates

or since topical finasteride whips out 60% of scalp dht less dht is released into blood hence why we can see a diminished level in serum.


but then there is other things that dont make sense. for example how can finastetie concentration be 1/150th of oral but have similar dht suppression abilities yet when you take 0.01mg oral which is also 1/100th of 1mg you have barely any systemic suppression?

I still think it is worth exploring, evidently there are not enough studies so people just need to try out for themselves, mozzarella showed promising results in a 0.005% trial even which should absolutely not affect serum dht and based on his studies claims it did not however I have not seen the full study as off yet. it was 16 month too so it actually says something instead of 5 month Kintor study which barely allows any conclusions.
 

badnewsbearer

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i tested today with the applicator and I need about 3ml to cover all areas affected. and its been quite a mess, takes about 20 minutes
 

hair2stay

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i tested today with the applicator and I need about 3ml to cover all areas affected. and its been quite a mess, takes about 20 minutes
How is it a mess? you mean the white finasteride powder sticky in your hair? Taking a long time to dry? 20 minutes to dry?
 

hair2stay

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no it is hard to part the hair and target all the areas, hard to not let it run off agaim
Yes indeed: I use a glass droppers as it's tip is small and no real need to part the hair. Then I just scrub it in with my finger tips. Maybe a thicker carrier like propylene glycol will stop it from running...
 

badnewsbearer

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Yes indeed: I use a glass droppers as it's tip is small and no real need to part the hair. Then I just scrub it in with my finger tips. Maybe a thicker carrier like propylene glycol will stop it from running...
honestly I dont know. I guess it is all about trial and error. no sane person who can pop a pill of 1mg oral finasteride and live their lives would even bother with this sh*t and yet here we are paying the price once more for weird genetic.

my doctor has said today I have a really strange response on finasteride with half free T, lower total T but still elevated E. seems like my body chose to convert the entire increase in testosterone from inhibiting DHT to estradiol and then even more of it. estradiol however has low binding affinity for SHBG and that explains my drop in free T and most certainly my sexual sides as well. not only are my DHT levels 70% lower, my free testosterone is 40% lower and estradiol is 50% elevated basically have transition to womanhood. I hope topical finasteride will not have these effects.

i am scheduled to get blood work in the 3rd week of January. then we will see what my free T and estradiol really is and how I feel on it. I guess 4 weeks is enough time to properly accumulate especially since the next few weeks or days I will still be on oral finasteride
 

hair2stay

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honestly I dont know. I guess it is all about trial and error. no sane person who can pop a pill of 1mg oral finasteride and live their lives would even bother with this sh*t and yet here we are paying the price once more for weird genetic.

my doctor has said today I have a really strange response on finasteride with half free T, lower total T but still elevated E. seems like my body chose to convert the entire increase in testosterone from inhibiting DHT to estradiol and then even more of it. estradiol however has low binding affinity for SHBG and that explains my drop in free T and most certainly my sexual sides as well. not only are my DHT levels 70% lower, my free testosterone is 40% lower and estradiol is 50% elevated basically have transition to womanhood. I hope topical finasteride will not have these effects.

i am scheduled to get blood work in the 3rd week of January. then we will see what my free T and estradiol really is and how I feel on it. I guess 4 weeks is enough time to properly accumulate especially since the next few weeks or days I will still be on oral finasteride
Keep me posted. Im hoping the best for you and I too friend
 

badnewsbearer

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this is something we would need, a gel like substance



furthermore apparently in the study referenced with the 35% serum reduction they are using a special vehicle so this all may not even work at all..
 
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hair2stay

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this is something we would need, a gel like substance



furthermore apparently in the study referenced with the 35% serum reduction they are using a special vehicle so this all may not even work at all..
I'm certain a mix of oil, ethanol, water, even aloe gel. Look at it this way: if you're not getting sides, keep increasing BUT slowly.

I'll try 0.25Mg per day every 3 days then eventually every two days and then every day. I'll then increase after 6 months if no improvement and no sides to perhaps 0.5mg....im terrified of PFS....I don't care how rare it is. I already take SSRI for depression...so I'm simply concerned.....I dunno. Very discouraging at times isn't it?
 

badnewsbearer

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I'm certain a mix of oil, ethanol, water, even aloe gel. Look at it this way: if you're not getting sides, keep increasing BUT slowly.

I'll try 0.25Mg per day every 3 days then eventually every two days and then every day. I'll then increase after 6 months if no improvement and no sides to perhaps 0.5mg....im terrified of PFS....I don't care how rare it is. I already take SSRI for depression...so I'm simply concerned.....I dunno. Very discouraging at times isn't it?
ive done ao much experimenting with finasteride and talkes ro so many doctors i am not acared of pfs as i believe i have a higher chance of getting hit by a truck today than to get this dubious condition
 

hair2stay

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ive done ao much experimenting with finasteride and talkes ro so many doctors i am not acared of pfs as i believe i have a higher chance of getting hit by a truck today than to get this dubious condition
Well that's good to know. There's a you tube channel PFS network I stumbled on....they were all bald and impotent....like a nightmare...
 
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