UCman i'm callin you out!

[uncomfortable man]

Fair enough. Im sorry that it hit you so hard. Like I said Im on your side when it comes to this, and I would be a severe hyprocrite (which i sure i probably am anyway) to say otherwise as I sit here having just ingested propecia and have minoxidil dampening my scalp!
Just for the record Im one of those NW2 going on NW3 guys who i know can get on your wick sometimes so im keen to avoid that. As I said in my introductory thread, i believe bald and balding to be two different things and wouldnt dream of supposing i have any clue of what its like to be in your position and thus, presume to give advice as to 'cheer up' etc.

I completely believe you when you say there is a negative stigma toward baldness because I do see it myself directed toward other men, im often insulted that people think its acceptable to act toward it the way they do, but as you know stigmas are not exclusive toward baldness, mankind is generally pretty ignorant, even the smartest people, we know so much less than we realise. Ironically I do not myself feel this stigma toward balding men or women, rather i am fearful of it. I genuinely mean it when i say so long as whats left of the hair is buzzed or shaven that it generally looks fine, but i do believe a lot of people dont see it that way, they see it as a weakness, a stick to beat you with. Therefore I think that the reason I take medications to cling to my hair is for the fear of experiencing what you say you are going through.

Like I said in an earlier post i think it affects some people more because i believe different people go through life with different levels of consciousness. I think the fact that you can read people and body language well is actually a detriment to you whereas if you were less conscious to the way people are then you would probably go round with a more open demeanour and then in turn receive less stigma if that makes sense. Not less stigma for being bald, but less any additional stigma that may be being induced through how your behaviour has been affected by your internalising your pain, if that makes sense. Anway this is all hypothesising, I dont suppose to know anything!

It's been said that the most intelligent claim to know nothing or the smarter you are, the less you know. Your posts tell me you are intelligent but also sympathetic. I think the real reason men fear going bald (besides the way it looks) is how it changes the way other people perceive you and how that informs the way they interact with you. On the whole, people treat you with less respect. So in that sense, being bald is a challenge many should fear imo.

 

[CaptainForehead]

I think the real reason men fear going bald (besides the way it looks) is how it changes the way other people perceive you and how that informs the way they interact with you.

This is true

On the whole, people treat you with less respect.

This is so not true.

People dont treat a bald doctor/engineer/scientist/soldier/policeman with less respect than a NW1.

The ONLY thing baldness affects negatively is your mating rating.

In many cases, baldness actually boosts certain perceived qualities, namely intelligence and maturity.

Your (and many baldies) problem is that they have fixated on the negative mating rating effect and internalised it to feel inferior. And THIS leads to other people treating you negatively. Not baldness.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Fox
Its popularity, and its stars
http://kommissar-koester.blogspot.com/2 ... en_08.html
http://www.welt.de/fernsehen/article775 ... ndort.html
340 episodes according to the wiki.

 

[Man in Space]

but yea UCMan, to temporarily get over the trauma of hair loss i do dissociate a lot . . . . . . which is just taking your emotions and making yourself feel absolutely nothing, barely a solution.

Be careful with this, this can cause a pattern of de-humanisation which can lead to social anxiety. Your hairloss can cause anxiety which causes you to disassociate from yourself and other people as you say, this can turn into social phobia. This is very dangerous path as once you go down it, you can find it hard to get back, it often requires cognative therapy, so be careful with that. Just looking out for you buddy, as someone who has had his own demons through developing some bad mental habits!

I think the real reason men fear going bald (besides the way it looks) is how it changes the way other people perceive you and how that informs the way they interact with you. On the whole, people treat you with less respect. So in that sense, being bald is a challenge many should fear imo.

I completely agree.

 

[uncomfortable man]

I think the real reason men fear going bald (besides the way it looks) is how it changes the way other people perceive you and how that informs the way they interact with you.

This is true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Fox[/url]
Its popularity, and its stars
http://kommissar-koester.blogspot.com/2 ... en_08.html
http://www.welt.de/fernsehen/article775 ... ndort.html
340 episodes according to the wiki.[/quote:9d37j5rb]

 

[CaptainForehead]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Fox[/url]
Its popularity, and its stars
http://kommissar-koester.blogspot.com/2 ... en_08.html
http://www.welt.de/fernsehen/article775 ... ndort.html
340 episodes according to the wiki.[/quote:26hfy1iz]

1. You would lose your bet. Out in the street, you are just another dude. Nobody cares. You are bald?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLk4Ia0otko

2. What other things does baldness effect?

3. I am not talking about who I would rather be, but rather whether society perceives me as defective, and makes faces at me --- and these other stereotypes say otherwise.
Regarding employers: Oh MY GOD. Maybe in brain dead professions, but for skilled positions(engineering, medicine, science, finance) they only care about the value you bring to the table. And value is brains, work ethic, personality etc; and not whether you are sexually attractive. TBH attactiveness does play a role, but only a minor one. Nobody cared that Henry Paulson is bald
Or about the hair on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Cramer

 

[Man in Space]

The argument between UM man and Captain Forehead in this thread seems to me to be the argument between a realist and an idealist. Captain Forehead seems to have good intentions and progressive ideals about how the world should be but UM man is concerned with how the world really is and he doesnt compromise from that, regardless of it involving facing up to the innate negativity he recieves as a result of being bald.

Arguments between realists and idealists are difficult to resolve, You see the world in fundamentally different ways. I find it fascinating how we all live such different lives because of our outlooks.

 

[CaptainForehead]

Hmmm, I would have thought I was the realist (accepting that the world has many many problems and doesnt care about baldness), and UCman was the idealist (longing after an ideal personal appearance).

 

[Man in Space]

Hmmm, I would have thought I was the realist (accepting that the world has many many problems and doesnt care about baldness), and UCman was the idealist (longing after an ideal personal appearance).

I can definately see why you may think that but i will try to explain why I believe you are an idealist (btw there is nothing wrong with being an idealist and I could very well be wrong, but it is more complex than how you have framed it)

The first problem with your argument is that there is no causation between the two statements. Just because the world has other problems is not evidence that baldness is not one of them. Your ideal is predicated upon an assumption. That the world has many problems, therefore it doesnt care about baldness, thus you have an ideal conception of the world. You also have not used any evidence that the world doesnt care about baldness other than your ideals.

Secondly, that UM might 'ideally' want his hair back does not mean that he is an idealist. His desire for hair is a symptom, not a cause of of his realist position that unfortunate as it is, it is undeniable that baldness is seen as a negative trait. It is undeniable that baldness is a stimulus which creates a reaction in people that is contrary to the reaction you recieve if you have hair. So UM man accepts that and then rationalises in response to that premise.

Im aware this level of argument is totally ridiculous thing to apply to a topic such as balding and im laughing as i write this, this is absurd behaviour on my part!!

 

[CaptainForehead]

I did not mean to present as "arguments" the things you mention, but rather supporting evidence. Of course the world may view baldness very negatively, but it would be illogical in the presence of massive problems. Now, this does not mean that the world is logical and does not view negatively yak yak to the point of staring, but based on my experience this is what I perceive. IMHO UCMan's view of reality is twisted.

Another line of though: surely we must all encounter people that are not that aesthetic (but have hair). Do we stare at them? View them with hostility? Or rather just ignore them and stare at the other hot pieces of *** walking down the street?

 

[Man in Space]

Sorry I meant 'this level of argument' as in what i was doing by rationalising this to such a degree with regard logic of thought, no offence intended toward you at all.

Another line of though: surely we must all encounter people that are not that aesthetic (but have hair). Do we stare at them? View them with hostility? Or rather just ignore them and stare at the other hot pieces of *** walking down the street?

This is actually the presumption that Im talking about. That is precisely what we do, and baldness is one of those things. That is the realist premise that im saying is the foundation of how people like UM appear to me to think. That people treat them differently, in his instance because of his hair. Of course baldness is not the only stigma, but it undoubtedly is 'a' stigma. This stigma, no matter how small or large, is always there and manifests itself in different ways, and thus it is inescapable though it is as you say variable, not everyone will hate it, but they will process it as a stimulus and react to you accordingly. That is the realist position. There is a stigma, and it effects how people react to you.

 

[CaptainForehead]

Ah, I see. If I understand you correctly, if someone treats me not so well (happens to everyone), I think "another encounter with an a**h**" and move on, whereas UCman gets depressed ascribing the assholeness to him being bald.

This certainly is a difference in viewpoints, but I wouldnt call it realist vs idealist.

 

[Man in Space]

Thats not really what I mean at all but no problem!

 

[uncomfortable man]

Ah, I see. If I understand you correctly, if someone treats me not so well (happens to everyone), I think "another encounter with an a**hole" and move on, whereas UCman gets depressed ascribing the assholeness to him being bald.

Your phrasing makes it sound like I interpret these looks and decide in my head that baldness is the cause, but you make it sound like it's all in my head. I assert that it is not all in my head, that there is a universally understood message that (amongst other things) baldness is an unattractive trait. Everyone knows it and it just astonishes me how someone who posts on a hairloss forum will fight tooth and nail to prove that baldness is not seen as a bad thing and that people are totally neutral and indifferent about it. Perhaps that is what you want to believe but it is not reality. So if baldness doesn't matter then what are you doing here? Why aren't you off contemplating the vastness of the universe? Anyway, assholes are attracted to me like mosquitoes to a zapper. Why? Because I'm an easy target. It happens to me often enough to rule out coincidence.
I could say fat people are also looked down on and ridiculed by society and you would counter that with "Well Santa is fat and everybody loves Santa" so forgive me if I grow tired of trying to explain myself to someone who only wants to prove me wrong instead of taking the time and effort to understand me. Speaking of which, Man in Space has managed to do in his short time here what some of you regulars still can't wrap your nw3's around.

 

[Man in Space]

I could say fat people are also looked down on and ridiculed by society and you would counter that with "Well Santa is fat and everybody loves Santa" so forgive me if I grow tired of trying to explain myself to someone who only wants to prove me wrong instead of taking the time and effort to understand me

This is exactly what CF keeps doing in the various threads i have been involved in with him. 'There are other problems in the world therefore baldness is not a problem'. 'The universe is incomprehensibly vast therefore baldness is inconsequential. This is a logical fallacy. CF makes a statement and then comes to a conclusion with no proof of causation between the predicate and the conclusion, you dont provide any evidence that your argument is correct, the causation is always presumed and its why I suggested I consider you an idealist. Your ideals are what are leading you to this position, not rational evidence about the condition of baldness.

In simpler terms, Just because there are other problems does not prove anything about the condition of baldness. If a loved one had a terminal illness and at the same time I had just become homeless, that my loved one would soon be passing does not remove the fact that i will be homeless. Obviously the losing of a loved one is a bigger problem and of course that would be cause for some perspective, but ultimately no matter how you sugar coat it it does not improve my situation, i would still be homeless.

Also Just because the universe is large does not negate the reality of our everyday experience as I said in a seperate thread, if i were trapped in a small room and couldnt escape, that there was a vast world outside my trapped room would have little relevence to me, it does not bare upon the reality of my experience, whilst true that the world and space is vast, it is merely an abstraction.

Im not having a pop CF, I believe your trying to be helpful, I just disagree with you and am trying to explain why, hope you dont think im trying to have digs or anything.

 

[CaptainForehead]

[quote="uncomfortable man":c5u72yix]
I could say fat people are also looked down on and ridiculed by society and you would counter that with "Well Santa is fat and everybody loves Santa" so forgive me if I grow tired of trying to explain myself to someone who only wants to prove me wrong instead of taking the time and effort to understand me

This is exactly what CF keeps doing in the various threads i have been involved in with him. 'There are other problems in the world therefore baldness is not a problem'. 'The universe is incomprehensibly vast therefore baldness is inconsequential. This is a logical fallacy. CF makes a statement and then comes to a conclusion with no proof of causation between the predicate and the conclusion, you dont provide any evidence that your argument is correct, the causation is always presumed and its why I suggested I consider you an idealist. Your ideals are what are leading you to this position, not rational evidence about the condition of baldness.
[/quote:c5u72yix]

I disagree. I dont make the argument you mentioned (it is obviously incorrect as you point out). I only offer the "lotsa problems in universe" as supporting evidence, not as conclusive evidence.
Obviously baldness is a problem, and it is a negative. What UCman keeps saying is that random strangers give him negative attention because of being aesthetically not so appealing. My claim or rather hypothesis is that UCMan is giving himself too much credit --- why would people pay attention to people with bad aesthetics? Paying attention requires energy expenditure on part of other people. Unaesthetic people are ignored and blended into the background. Like you go into the supermarket and just ignore the stuff you dont like. If someone likes coke as opposed to pepsi, he doesnt view pepsi with hostlity, he just ignores it.

 

[Man in Space]

I disagree. I dont make the argument you mentioned (it is obviously incorrect as you point out). I only offer the "lotsa problems in universe" as supporting evidence, not as conclusive evidence.
Obviously baldness is a problem, and it is a negative. What UCman keeps saying is that random strangers give him negative attention because of being aesthetically not so appealing. My claim or rather hypothesis is that UCMan is giving himself too much credit --- why would people pay attention to people with bad aesthetics? Paying attention requires energy expenditure on part of other people. Unaesthetic people are ignored and blended into the background. Like you go into the supermarket and just ignore the stuff you dont like. If someone likes coke as opposed to pepsi, he doesnt view pepsi with hostlity, he just ignores it.

You claim it is merely supporting evidence and maybe that is the case yet you never provide any conclusive evidence. If your conclusive evidence is the remark of unasthetic people merely being ignored then it is wrong as it is easily disprovable. We all know that people are often picked upon for various features, it is not merely a case of being ignored, many people recieve actual hostility for their appearence. Secondly your coke analogy is also flawed. A relationship between man and an innanimate object is a completely different relationship between a man and a fellow man. There is a symbiotic relationship between two people often involving status and power, whereas we dont tend to enter in that kind of relationship dynamic with confectionary

 

[Man in Space]

The thing with Ucman is he's a cool looking mofo. Now, I'm sure some chump or even several have been intimidated by his presence, his look and this internalised intimidation they felt manifested itself into some kind of derisive hostility. This hurt Ucman and he subsequently carries himself along with the preconception that this may happen again and as a result, probably does. A self fullfilling prophecy if you will. So in that sense I feel that Ucman is slighly irrational and cannot see it and therefor not realistic but nor idealistic either perhaps!

Monty, you would make a great diplomat!

I agree with a lot of what you say, you definately get more attention if your imposing, Im 6ft 3 and honestly I cant go out without gettin a comment, If im dressed smartly I usually get told 'you love yourself dont you' or 'who do you think you are'. I always have laugh when someone says that and if anything, that tends to get me more grief as i then get told im arrogant! I do think though that UM is rational not irrational, if someone presents you with grief, it is rational behavior to consider why it happened and I bet 9 times out of 10, the grief he gets, he would not have if he was not bald. That is not to say he wouldnt have got a different typr of grief if he had a full head of hair, merely that I believe him when he says he got the grief for what he said he got it for.

 

[seb]

I like you,Man in space,you are an honest,thought-provoking,refreshing addition to this forum,who(along with myself),completely understands and is empathetic too U.mans hostility.

 

[Man in Space]

Thanks Seb, the thing is Im sure that UM comes across as more negative on these forums than he does in his day to day existence. My belief is that a place like this is pretty much the only place you can talk about this stuff so I suspect this is where UM and others like yourself get to vent about it without fear of reprisal....At least thats the idea! It doesnt happen because you get told 'not to feel that way, your twisted'. So you are socially prohibited from talking about it amongst your friends (as it will be stored and used against you when necessary and you) and are also prohibted from doing the same here, I can see how that would get hugely frustrating. People tend to become dehumaised through a computer, but with every message i sent i try not to forget there is a person on the other side, whom is moved enough by their situation to want to come here and try and chat liberated from the social constraints of the everyday world.

What I believe a lot of the people dont realise here, and most of them have good intentions, is that actually you just want to get it off your chest. When Freud started work on psychology, he discovered that by allowing patients to talk, they could often become cured when they opened their mind and verbalised their experiences. Often enough, just talking about these repressed thoughts were enough to see the patients symptoms cured. Im pretty sure Freud didnt keep butting in with 'yeah but the thing is UM, your a bad *** and youll have no sweat getting conkers deep into some tidy birds'!

 

[seb]

I thought rather naively that there would be more like-minded souls on here ie fully bald who have walked the same path as I,however it appears U.man is perhaps the only one,thus is the ONLY one who can relate to what I am getting off my chest.It is not my intention to argue,or berate people on here.Likewise I don't need too hear that I am delusional,paranoid etc,and thus have to validate my feelings through the advice,opinions,beliefs of others(certainly not from people who are NOT bald,thus only speculating on what it is like for a fully bald man in todays materialistic mad society).