Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless
Because all this fibrosis crunching nonsense is 100% speculation and broscience
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- 292
Would be great if the @ZenHead could add a link to the FAQ in the first post that started this thread, people still fill this thread up with a lot of questions that are already answered there!
FAQ
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/microneedling-faqs-procedures-studies-and-such.119653/
Progress pictures (first 150 pages)
https://imgur.com/a/9moOBwA
FAQ
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/microneedling-faqs-procedures-studies-and-such.119653/
Progress pictures (first 150 pages)
https://imgur.com/a/9moOBwA
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- 18
Well here is my "progress". I think nothing happend since I started the end of november. Of course I did not expect something to happen in this short amount of time. I use a Dermapen at 1.5mm and rosemary oil. I'm an NW3.5 and started losing hair about 3 years ago. What confuses me are the tiny little vellus hairs in both temples, but I think they are just leftovers from my receding hairline. However I'll keep an eye on them.
Attachments
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I can't tell yet, and I'm not even sure about the shedding, since I have to wash my hair 2 times a day to wash out the oil. When I try to pull out some hair with my hands I think it's less than before, but it could be the shower which washes out the loose hairs.
Really? I thought there was some evidence hinting that fibrosis was an outcome of the inflammation of DHT. Can anyone confirm this with some papers? Is this really just an untested hypothesis?
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
"Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) is a dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-mediated process, characterized by continuous miniaturization of androgen reactive hair follicles and accompanied by perifollicular fibrosis of follicular units in histological examination. "
They say T induces TGF-Beta1 for fibrosis, but it's more likely T --> DHT = fibrosis
I don't really know for sure,I'm at this for nearly 2 months don't get the crunching noise any more and no flaking either now so something is happening???
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The forum! Session 2 is in two days, so way too early to tell.Not sure if talking about the forum or about needling.
In the latter case we would like to hear some specifics
Gotta love how, when presented with the fibrosis/calcification theory or something similar, some people in this forum either tell you that:
1.- It's broscience but I won't tell you why or present anything refuting it. Muh DHT.
2.- And when they do, it's the bullshit *** straw man argument of "they transplanted a balding hair into a forearm and it continued to miniaturize".
Yeah, yeah, we get it. You gotta address DHT, we all know that.
And sure, balding hairs were transplanted into a forearm and continued to miniaturize at the same rate. But recent research suggest that doing this with full hair follicle units does effect their survival rate. In other words, follicles can be affected by their sorroundings.
The study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1524-4725.1997.tb00411.x
Also, it might be worth noting that not even f*****g researchers have refuted all questions regarding the scalp environment and such affecting hair growth, so I doubt some random dude on this clusterfuck of a forum can.
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So here's my plan. If everything except for my temples thicken up nicely in 9 months, I'll just get an fue for my hairline and temples (like 1000-1500 grafts) and then hope I can maintain by microneedling alone.
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Hahaha. It does look like Ben Barnes is the one ranting.
Hi, long time lurker on this thread, very interesting.
TLDR: I think the key, from a practical perspective to reverse Androgenetic Alopecia is getting ahead of the rate at which fibrosis is accumulating
Here is my perspective, based on what I have learned thus far from various posts and my own experience/research. I believe the current most popular theory regarding Androgenetic Alopecia is correct: androgen receptors in the follicles are sensitive to DHT, which leads to inflammation, which leads to fibrosis, and thus continuous miniaturization of the of the hair follicles. After reading up more on the effects of needling, i feel it provides more evidence for this popular theory of Androgenetic Alopecia.
So in medicine, there is treating the disease, and treating the symptoms. Applying this analogy to Androgenetic Alopecia, I believe treating the "disease" would be either 1) finding a way to make your androgen receptors less sensitive to DHT (which I don't think exists), or replacing the hair follicles all together with a hair transplant.
As I mentioned above, I am more convinced now based on what I have learned about microneedling that the combination of minoxidil, finasteride, and microneedling is an effective treatment to handle the symptoms of the disease, depending on how far you have progressed. They all work in 3 different ways to reduce or halt fibrosis accumulation. Ultimately, if fibrosis accumulation can be decreased, I believe hair loss can be reversed. The key here, I think is the extent to which fibrosis has accumulated. This is why, treatments of minoxdile and finasteride are more effective in early on hairloss, rather than late hair loss. Both minoxidil and finasteride impact the rate at which fibrosis accumulates. Minixodil does this by increasing blood flow (a lack of blood flow results in fibrosis), finasteride does this by decreasing dht, thereby decreasing rate of fibrosis accumulation as well. However, keep in mind, your androgen receptors are still sensitive to dht, and since dht isnt completely halted, you are still accumulated fibrosis
I think my own example demonstrates this fairly well, which I believe many others have experienced. Like many others, I got on finasteride and minoxidil at my second shed of of noticeable hair loss. my hair regrew fully within a few months, and this was because my fibrosis had not accumulated as much. As time went on, however, my hairloss came back again, but its very slow. Ive been losing hair for the last 7 years, diffuse, but i still have quite a bit left. I have no doubt that it would have been much quicker hair loss, had i not been on minoxidil and finasteride.
Often times, it is thought that hairloss progresses because the treatment is just less effective over time. I do not think this is the case. Rather, its simply because fibrosis as accumualted to such an extent, making it less effective. So if there is a mechanism to break down the fibrosis (e.g., microneedling), minoxidil and finasteride will remain just as "effective".
So where does microneedling come into play. Well i think, microneedling not only physically breaks down the fibrosis, it also increases the blood flow, which also breaks down the fibrosis. This is why i think these studies that have groups with minoxidil and microneedling see a synergistc effect. This is also why i think we see hair growth in reverse and for the areas that have tons of fibrosis accumulation, why it will take quite some time to see improvement, for three reasons : 1) you are still following the 3 -6 month shedding cycle, 2) every shedding cycle will result in a hair that is slightly thicker, just as it took multipel shedding cycles for it to miniaturized.3) most importantly, two repairs need to take place. The first is the fibrosis, the second is the recreation of your arterial network that feeds the follicles. I dont think the latter can happen until some degree of the skin is re ecoveree from the fibrosis
However, I also think that halting microneedling will result in the accumulation of fibrosis again, so this is why i still think this is still treating the symptom rather the disease, but still a good treatment nonetheless.
As for me, I started needling a month ago, and I am experiencing everything as others have posted. My scalp feels great, my hair looks soo much healthier and i think these are the effects of the increased blood flow. My scalp also was in a constant inflammatory state (burning sensation), especially around the times when my shedding increased, this has also decreased. So i will certainly post updated pics at the 3 month mark.
TLDR: I think the key, from a practical perspective to reverse Androgenetic Alopecia is getting ahead of the rate at which fibrosis is accumulating
Here is my perspective, based on what I have learned thus far from various posts and my own experience/research. I believe the current most popular theory regarding Androgenetic Alopecia is correct: androgen receptors in the follicles are sensitive to DHT, which leads to inflammation, which leads to fibrosis, and thus continuous miniaturization of the of the hair follicles. After reading up more on the effects of needling, i feel it provides more evidence for this popular theory of Androgenetic Alopecia.
So in medicine, there is treating the disease, and treating the symptoms. Applying this analogy to Androgenetic Alopecia, I believe treating the "disease" would be either 1) finding a way to make your androgen receptors less sensitive to DHT (which I don't think exists), or replacing the hair follicles all together with a hair transplant.
As I mentioned above, I am more convinced now based on what I have learned about microneedling that the combination of minoxidil, finasteride, and microneedling is an effective treatment to handle the symptoms of the disease, depending on how far you have progressed. They all work in 3 different ways to reduce or halt fibrosis accumulation. Ultimately, if fibrosis accumulation can be decreased, I believe hair loss can be reversed. The key here, I think is the extent to which fibrosis has accumulated. This is why, treatments of minoxdile and finasteride are more effective in early on hairloss, rather than late hair loss. Both minoxidil and finasteride impact the rate at which fibrosis accumulates. Minixodil does this by increasing blood flow (a lack of blood flow results in fibrosis), finasteride does this by decreasing dht, thereby decreasing rate of fibrosis accumulation as well. However, keep in mind, your androgen receptors are still sensitive to dht, and since dht isnt completely halted, you are still accumulated fibrosis
I think my own example demonstrates this fairly well, which I believe many others have experienced. Like many others, I got on finasteride and minoxidil at my second shed of of noticeable hair loss. my hair regrew fully within a few months, and this was because my fibrosis had not accumulated as much. As time went on, however, my hairloss came back again, but its very slow. Ive been losing hair for the last 7 years, diffuse, but i still have quite a bit left. I have no doubt that it would have been much quicker hair loss, had i not been on minoxidil and finasteride.
Often times, it is thought that hairloss progresses because the treatment is just less effective over time. I do not think this is the case. Rather, its simply because fibrosis as accumualted to such an extent, making it less effective. So if there is a mechanism to break down the fibrosis (e.g., microneedling), minoxidil and finasteride will remain just as "effective".
So where does microneedling come into play. Well i think, microneedling not only physically breaks down the fibrosis, it also increases the blood flow, which also breaks down the fibrosis. This is why i think these studies that have groups with minoxidil and microneedling see a synergistc effect. This is also why i think we see hair growth in reverse and for the areas that have tons of fibrosis accumulation, why it will take quite some time to see improvement, for three reasons : 1) you are still following the 3 -6 month shedding cycle, 2) every shedding cycle will result in a hair that is slightly thicker, just as it took multipel shedding cycles for it to miniaturized.3) most importantly, two repairs need to take place. The first is the fibrosis, the second is the recreation of your arterial network that feeds the follicles. I dont think the latter can happen until some degree of the skin is re ecoveree from the fibrosis
However, I also think that halting microneedling will result in the accumulation of fibrosis again, so this is why i still think this is still treating the symptom rather the disease, but still a good treatment nonetheless.
As for me, I started needling a month ago, and I am experiencing everything as others have posted. My scalp feels great, my hair looks soo much healthier and i think these are the effects of the increased blood flow. My scalp also was in a constant inflammatory state (burning sensation), especially around the times when my shedding increased, this has also decreased. So i will certainly post updated pics at the 3 month mark.
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Although all of these ideas have already been stated by other members in this forums (in this and other threads), this is an awesome post and a great summary. Nice way to start in the online hairloss community. Welcome my friend, and best of luck with the beginning of the needling journey.
Thanks! I really think the community is on to something here. I find it really interesting that a common theme we are finding is that people's scalp at the very least feel better and healthier despite even when there are no actual results. People feel optimistic within a few weeks of needling. And if you think about it, that is an actual a response from your body when your body is begining to recver from an illness. For example, when you are sick and are beginning to enter recovery, often times you feel better mood wise and jist healthier, despite still having symptoms of the illness.
There are different types of inflammation. The inflammation you have from an injury is not the same inflammation as perifollicular inflammation. At this point, it is more widely accepted that inflammation from Androgenetic Alopecia leads to fibrosis. Additionally, There are many types of fibrosis, that have vastly different mechanisms. Fibrosis is a general term referring to excessive fibrous tissue. How it get theres and at what level varies.
Here are some referrences:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16755026/
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-02636-2_3
Theoretical model, but good info:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987717310411
If he is using three different treatments at the same time, or even one after another, there is literally no way to conclude which treatment was the factor to regrowth as he is concluding.