Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[Spanishboy97]

My hair is alot longer in after picture but microneedling has thickened my hair up drastically.

How long have you needle?

 

[Rudi]

This is one of the best posts I have seen, and a very good example of healthy and well argumented criticism (I'm looking at you, @roberta)

This is exactly my take on this whole microneedling thing. At first, I was very exited to try this thing coz the scientific evidence firm the published study was promising. If science is properly done, results MUST be able to be reproduced if the same methodology is followed. Most people here actually followed the same methodologies as the first Indian and Chinese studies, and the outcome was FAR from the same.
Now, some people will argue that "everyone is different" to justify the fact that there are a lot non-responders here, but they fail to realize that this argument is a bad one, because given the results of the study, we SHOULD NOT expect this amount of non-responder. Following the numbers of the studies, we should expect a very small amount of non-responders, because according to those two, every single subject responded to the treatment at least to a degree.

What we should be discussing is WHY are we seeing this kind of non-reproducibility? I can think of some reasons:

1) a degree of dishonesty by the researchers, such as conveniently selecting good responders and ignoring the bad ones to skew their conclusion AFTER conducting the trials, which might make sense if there are competing interests. Rachita Dhurat, for example, allegedly has a dermarolling business. However, I cannot say the same for the Chinese authors of the second study.

2) non-random racial sampling: this has been discussed before. Every single needling study published so far (as far as I know) has been made by Asian researchers. As such, all the subjects are either Indian or Chinese individuals. Where are the damn western studies? Are there some genetic factors exclusive to Asian groups that make them more prone to respond to needling than predominantly European groups? That is something we cannot rule out yet.

3) small deviations from the original methodologies:
We are trying our best to imitate their methodology, however, what we cannot properly reproduce is the way the researchers have measured progress. That is, hair count by square cm and hair thickness. We simply lack the equipment to measure these variables, so we are left with no other options than to rely on the subjective self assessment. The thing is, the studies have also employed self assessments and even so, the outcome between them and this trial has been largely different. In the Dhurat and Chinese studies, the self-assessment reports are mostly positive, with close to zero unsatisfied subjects. There is no question that this is NOT the case here.
However there is an important detail we should take into account, as pointed out by another user the other day. In the Dhurat study, every subject had their head shaved. Here, a lot of us are doing this with our non-shaved hair. Shaving a subject's hair may make it easier to note progress because you can notice new follicles and increasing density in the absence of dense hair obstructing our view.

It should be noted though, that the new micrineedling study (another Chinese one, LOL) published this year produced results that are more in line with what we are seeing here, but I would also dare to say that even then, response rates are somewhat higher in that study than in this trial.

What else do you think that might be happening to explain the discrepancy between the published studies and our reality? I think this is something worth discussing.

Indeed, it is a bit weird that the studies are mostly Asian studies. We only have a small Brazilian study and there are three Follica studies that are not accessible. I could imagine that in Asia there is more acceptance for this kind of treatment. Acupuncture originates from Asia. Thus wounding your skin is probably less seen as a 'voodoo' treatment. In addition, personal looks is perhaps more important in Asia than in Europe thus more focus on hair loss solutions. (Just look at Chinese politicians lol )
The other problem is participant selection. I have no idea how that is done. But I admit that if I were selected for a hairloss study, I would take part hoping it works for me and that I don't get the placebo. I dont know if they actually test if you are on anti-androgens. If not, would you give up antiandrogens that are beneficial for you during the study duration? Some would not-hoping it provides synergies. Consequently you have participants that perhaps are cheating.
You can read at times posts where guys in desperation try to inquire if they can be selected for a particular study. We must not forget that hairloss is a very emotional issue for many balding people.
The ideal participants are people who dont care about their hairloss!!!
If we now assume that the study participants are on anti-androgens then its no suprise that microneedling does not work for many here on HairLossTalk.com. Many here are not using them due to side effects.
I firmly believe we are also not the average hairloss person. For most people eg finasteride works and they move on. But some have extreme agressive hairloss and/or have also bad side effects and they-in their desperation-seeking advice here.

 

[kiwi666]

The same thing happened to my friend at 30. He was even more slick bald than you and he has been this way since 22-24. As soon as he started needling(he was on the big 3 for years) he started sprouting tiny hair that you could see only at a particular angle and to see the density you had to project flash light from a certain angle. He is on his way to NW1 without a doubt.


I've read the entire thing and I've come to the conclusion that I gotta try this for 2 years straight or I'll just never know if it works for me or not. I remember being so jealous even though he's my friend because those tiny hair started sprouting on his head just after one session and yet we even see evidence of people who take much longer to get results. I'm starting to get the results but jealousy taught me that it's different for everybody, and yet f*****g trolls are trying to derail this thread again.

I suspect the trolls are just bitter and upset people suffering from male pattern baldness.

I too wish they would just go away and let us share notes and experiment.

Indeed, it is a bit weird that the studies are mostly Asian studies. We only have a small Brazilian study and there are three Follica studies that are not accessible. I could imagine that in Asia there is more acceptance to this kind of treatment. Acupuncture originates from Asia. Thus wounding your skin is probably less seen as a 'voodoo' treatment. In addition, personal looks is perhaps more important in Asia than in Europe thus more focus on hair loss solutions. (Just look at Chinese politicians lol )
The other problem is participant selection. I have no idea how that is done. But I admit that if I were selected for a hairloss study, I would take part hoping it works for me and that I don't get the placebo. I dont know if they actually test if you are on anti-androgens. If not, would you give up antiandrogens that are beneficial for you during the study duration? Some would not hoping it provides synergies. Consequently you have participants that maybe cheating.
You can read at times posts where guys in desperation try to inquire if they can be selected for a particular study. We must not forget that hairloss is a very emotional issue for many balding people.
The ideal participants are people who dont care about their hairloss!!!
If we now assume that the guys are on anti-androgens then its no suprise that microneedling does not work for many here on HairLossTalk.com. Many here are not using them due to side effects.
I firmly believe we are also not the average hairloss person. For most people eg finasteride works and they move on. But some have extreme agressive hairloss and/or have also bad side effects and they-in their desperation-seeking advice here.

Agreed. These people are our desperate peers. Nobody needs to see post after post from sceptics. It’s fine in my view for sceptics to share their opinions and / or failed / and or short lived experiments BUT please just once. Have your say and go away

Then we can all be happy!

 

[Rudi]

The same thing happened to my friend at 30. He was even more slick bald than you and he has been this way since 22-24. As soon as he started needling(he was on the big 3 for years) he started sprouting tiny hair that you could see only at a particular angle and to see the density you had to project flash light from a certain angle. He is on his way to NW1 without a doubt.


I've read the entire thing and I've come to the conclusion that I gotta try this for 2 years straight or I'll just never know if it works for me or not. I remember being so jealous even though he's my friend because those tiny hair started sprouting on his head just after one session and yet we even see evidence of people who take much longer to get results. I'm starting to get the results but jealousy taught me that it's different for everybody, and yet f*****g trolls are trying to derail this thread again.

I will continue my low intensity microneedling too...until a 'real' cure is released..regardles of other treatments.

Certainly, I dont get scared by cancer claims etc..

 

[tressful11]

this is ridiculous, look at the lighting and your hair cut. you just can't compare these two pics.



i asked you for evidence not some anecdotes "i heard my friend bla bla bla" no one is intersted in that. show as some hard proof and facts



this is a forum so everyone can share their point of view and i will continue to do so. you must have some personal self esteem issues when you can't handle valid critisism.

The problem here isn't that people don't want you to share your opinion, the problem is that you are an absolutely bitter troll. You claim everyone is a scammer. The youtube guy is trying to sell something, numberguy is trying to sell a serum. According to you, everyone except you is a scammer. Get your facts together before you bring them here. None of your claims make sense.
There are a lot of people on this thread who have valid criticism of dermarolling and the believers here take it like a good sport. You on the other hand just propagate bitterness and ill-will.

 

[spring15]

My hair is alot longer in after picture but microneedling has thickened my hair up drastically.

Nice pal. How many times a week are you needling & applying minoxidil? Do you apply minoxidil right after needling?

 

[samantha3333]

Good to see many people here are not blinded and consumed by hair loss induced bitterness. I remember there’s a woman on Heralopecia. She spent years and years commenting on posts telling people spironolactone and rogaine dont work so now she’s in a hair system. Literally majority of her comments are just that.

 

[Jamesdunn]

Nice pal. How many times a week are you needling & applying minoxidil? Do you apply minoxidil right after needling?

Once a week and minoxidil twice a day. Yes I apply straight after

 

[Jamesdunn]

Right temple progress.

 

[Necr0sis]

I really want to know what the consensus is on what is the appropriate and optimal amount of wounding, for the derminator 2 in particular.

With the D2 set to fast at 1.5, the slightest amount of pressure can change my wounding from “just like sunburn” like many people claim is correct, and bleeding.

I’m sure mild bleeding is normal due to preexisting skin lesions on the scalp (zits, ingrown hairs, etc) that may be hit while derma rolling. I just hate getting paranoid after my sessions when I see blood and worry I’m causing some damage that may worsen hair loss

 

[RU serious]

Are you doing some of the suggestions. Like not doing it right before bed? Thoroughly washing your forehead?

Yes applying in morning washing head at night and changing pillow cases every 2/3 days. Also using retinol cream and staying active and healthy as f***, still eyes as dark as midnight on a moonless night.

 

[Headdy]

To @kiwi666 and all of the other nice dudes who evaluated my progress, thank you. I should confess that not a single person picked the corect "before pic", which means that either 6 months of needling did NOTHING for me, or if it did something, it is cosmetically unnoticeable, and therefore equal to nothing. Personally, I think I didn't improve at all.

I shall let you know that I will keep needling nevertheless. At least for an additional year just in case there's the small chance of being a late responder (if that's a thing).
However, as I announced earlier, I am going to perform an additional experiment that I'll be sharing with you guys. Just as @longtimelurker did, I am going to needle Everyday. I just ordered 1mm rollers to do so. I will reserve my dermapen for the usual heavy sessions at 2mm,and will do "light" and short sessions with a 1mm roller.
I will do the everyday needling ONLY on one of my temples, just so there can be a fair comparison of needling everyday Vs needing once a week. I really hope this experiment will be insightful for me and for all of you people.

Sounds like a good plan... and you're keeping track with photos and everything so that's good.
Keep needling. If sometime you'll need plan C then you can try lowering the frequency of the low frequency side to once every 2-3 weeks.

 

[samantha3333]

Has anyone tried Zix here? I been told Zix and Needling don’t work together so I’m gonna try needling for 6 months first.

Am I the only here who actually appreciate research on alternative treatments? Antiandrogen that I tried (spironolactone and finasteride) gave me terrible sides like brain fog and headaches. I stopped taking them continuously and my hair has been the worst. I now jumped back on spironolactone and my sides all came back.

 

[samantha3333]

I really want to know what the consensus is on what is the appropriate and optimal amount of wounding, for the derminator 2 in particular.

With the D2 set to fast at 1.5, the slightest amount of pressure can change my wounding from “just like sunburn” like many people claim is correct, and bleeding.

I’m sure mild bleeding is normal due to preexisting skin lesions on the scalp (zits, ingrown hairs, etc) that may be hit while derma rolling. I just hate getting paranoid after my sessions when I see blood and worry I’m causing some damage that may worsen hair loss

I would say do what helps with wounding. I don’t bleed at anything less than 2mm. But if you’re doing it for absorption of minoxidil, I read that some users do 0.7mm.

I’ve only been dermrolljng twice with 1.5mm and derma pen once wth 2mm. So far no side effects. I also made sure I inspected my scalp before I needle to avoid problem areas. I think I’m also gonna stop needling the area I need toppik on and see how it works first.

 

[Bill_Russo]

Needling Progress Test #2:

I recently got to the 6 month mark of weekly needling (also on finasteride and min for 3 years) and I took several pictures to assess progress. However, as I said before in the prev test 3 months ago, I want a clean and bias free assessment from you guys, so I am performing this blind test again to address whether this thing is working for me or not.

I am going to post 4 pictures: ONLY ONE of them is the BEFORE (Pre-Needling) picture, and the remaining 3 of them are the after (post 6 months of needling) pictures. I randomized the order of the 4 pics and labeled them with numbers. The idea is that you should try to guess which is THE WORST PIC in terms of hair density of all the four I am posting.

The rationale is this: If needling is working, then the trend should be that most of you guys are picking the real BEFORE pic. If it's not working, then I should expect either no pattern at all, or most people picking one of the AFTER pics (post 6 months needling) as the worst pic.

Keep in mind that in all pics I tried to comb my hair in the worst posible way so my awful crown gets as exposed as possible,and were taken in the same angle, with somewhat the same natural illumination.


I will tell you guys the outcome of this experiment when I get to at least 10 votes.
I would really appreciate some help, please lemme know your opinion.
@Longway886 @kiwi666 @kiwipilu @Bill_Russo @NilesCrane @Headdy @Pigeon @Kagaho @samantha3333 @baldman329 @chen @longtimelurker @Kitedude @benjt2

Gonna go with number 3!

 

[Armando Jose]

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-32233570
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(15)00182-8?_returnURL=http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0092867415001828?showall=true&cc=y=

Regarding plucking and new hairs, but in mouse....

 

[Roland1]

Very interesting article. Please see my first message page 463. I think it's worth a try ! Perhaps, apply minoxidil just after to enhance absorption ?

 

[img.ra]

Antiandrogen that I tried (spironolactone and finasteride) gave me terrible sides like brain fog and headaches. I stopped taking them continuously and my hair has been the worst. I now jumped back on spironolactone and my sides all came back.

Try flutamide.

 

[Necr0sis]

Hmm, is it just me or is the temple especially sensitive to bleeding? I made sure to go very delicate with 1.5 mm at fast speed, and it always ends up pretty damn red https://imgur.com/a/uvj9i3G

 

[luen12]

Hi everyone! Long time no see. I wanted to check back and show you my most recent pics.

Here you can see my last post from march. (Added minoxidil once a day to my regimen since then.)
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...s-from-tressless.117746/page-410#post-1781295

Still needling at 2mm every two weeks, however I want to switch to every 3 weeks in the near future.

I marked my optimal NW0/1 hairline with the green line in both the pic from today and in an old pic from December. I think you can see how a lot of small terminal hairs are starting to grow around that line.
Its almost even more noticeable when I look in the mirror. (For a long time it was the opposite: I could see new hairs on my photos but almost no cosmetic difference in the mirror).
I really hope all these small hairs will grow longer in the following months. But somehow I am optimistic, as most of them are pigmented and don‘t look like vellus hair to me.