Are you suggesting the histology of everybody's penis will change?
Why Propecia Doesn't Cause Side Effects for Some?
- Thread starter thiswomps
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Are you suggesting the histology of everybody's penis will change?
Fanjeera said:
No, not "of course"! FFS Fanjeera!
Fanjeera said:
RAT STUDIES!!!
Finasteride is clearly bad for the rat penis, and rat doctors should certainly not prescribe the medication to balding rats.
Not only are you citing two primary studies, you are citing two primary ANIMAL studies, then saying "of course" these findings apply to all humans. What's even more confounding is your second source isn't even certain these findings apply to rats!
"However, the interrelationship between androgen and the structure and function of the erectile tissue is not quite clear and sometimes even controversial, and further investigation is needed"
Not to even mention the physiology of the rat penis is quite different from humans. Rats have a little thing called a baculum (penis bone) which i'm fairly certain is absent from the human penis.
Seriously man, I appreciate you are involved in these discussions and doing some of your own research, but when you post stuff like this it's just ridiculous.
Fanjeera
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It's clear that with finasteride you get such ultrastructural changes. Read the study again! I don't think the penis bone changes that much. We both still have corpora cavernosa. Alright, it's not 100% for humans, but it's very-very probable. Rats and humans are not that different. Hopefully you still have a choice, if you want your old penis back or not and by quitting the drug, as the androgens shift back in place, the ultrastructure does as well. Seems likely, but perhaps it's not like that. Then that could be the whole base for pfsfoundation.org, propeciahelp.com and the concept of post finasteride syndrome.
Now you have obviously researched more then I have but how on earth can you suggest their is a 100% chance when we were just discussing the possible reasons on why finasteride has different effects on different people?
I recall reading the histology of your penis changed? Perhaps thats your basis?
Fanjeera said:
Why do I need to read them again? I don't disagree with the studies at all.
Fanjeera said:
It doesn't matter how probable you perceive it to be. I am not aware of any human studies that corroborate these findings in any way. This lack of evidence doesn't automatically make poor evidence (these rat studies) fact; it still means we don't know yet until it's been verified in humans.
Fanjeera said:
Stand a rat and a human side-by side. Honestly, you think they aren't that different? I think what you mean is that rats and human carry a similar genetic make-up. Plus they are cheap, age quickly and reproduce readily. This makes them great test subjects
Fanjeera said:
Again, there is NO evidence that taking finasteride causes temporary or permanent damage to the ultrastructure in a human. You are suggesting that PFS and all associated symptoms (decreased libido, brain fog, fatigue, decreased muscle mass, etc) simply result from changes in tissue structure in the penis?
Quantum Cat
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why would I want my old one back? My penis is fine (and much bigger than a rat's penis)
where is the confirmation that this happens to humans?
what they should do is feed Finasteride to a lot of Chimpanzees/gorillas - our nearest relatives - and see what happens to their penii
Quantum Cat
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Fanjeera does study medicine, so he clearly has some actual biological knowledge (unlike many of the Propecihelpers who come over here purely to scaremonger), but he's already admitted he has a bias against Finasteride.
He took Propecia for only a few days and apparently got watery semen. Years later he claims the problem hasn't resolved and he still has watery semen. Not saying he's lying, but it does sound unlikely tbh
Honestly i'm not trying to be mean, but I have a really hard time believing that. A huge part of studying medicine is to understand how medical sources work and how to weight them properly. Someone who is studying medicine shouldn't have to be explained why animal studies are not applicable to humans, and he has completely misinterpreted other studies many times. Again, I don't call him out to be an a**h** by any means, but the obvious misinformation and misinterpretation gets to me.
Quantum Cat
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well I'm just going on what he has said - he could be lying. But he has been 'burnt' by Finasteride before, so that may explain why he twists studies to fit his anti-finasteride agenda, but he isn't as bad as some who come here
to the lost
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ok, I got myself tested way before in january, had abnormally low DHT (3x less than minimal for man).. I asked my endo and he replied that he can't use DHT value, taht is medicaly usless for him as endo and taht they even don't do the DHT no more, cuz it's not "correct" (the measurment that is)
so he just ignored my finasteride questions.. I asked him if he would recomend someone with low DHT to use finasteride (so I can warn others, but no...)
I asked him about neurosteroids, and he didn't respond
taht's that on doctors.. than we wonder why those guys have so manny problems... docs don't know half the sides to thing that they prescribe (cuz the side are not known yet)
Fanjeera
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There is a reason for rat studies. In cases where a chemical has proven its pathological effect on rats, the risk of exposing it to humans is considered too big. We will see in the future where medicine will develop with finasteride.
Animal studies allow scientists to make educated hypotheses about a chemical's effect on humans, but a hypothesis is just that until it's been proven to be applicable. Of course if you feed a chemical to a bunch of rats and they all die, it's going to certainly be risky to give this to humans. Finasteride is a completely different story.
Rats are enormously different than humans. They have a resting heart rate of 400bpm, they consume far more calories than humans do (in relation to body weight), their metabolism is completely different, their hormonal profile is different. In these finasteride studies, rats were given something like 20-50 times the dose of finasteride that humans take in Propecia. It's not shown to be dose dependent in humans, but nobody knows how a rat might respond.
An example I can recall off the top of my head is a drug called Tirilazad. It was shown that when given to rats immediately after a stroke, it protected brain tissue and reduced damage significantly. Promising, right? When it was tested on humans, not only did it not protect against brain damage, it actually made it worse.
Quantum Cat
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do you work in the medical field Wuffer?
A
Allen Parks
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He would be presented with a patient with a gun shot wound and Wuffer would say his injuries are "psychological." I'm going to say no, Wuffer does not work in the medical field.
Quantum Cat
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Well you clearly don't work in the medical field either going on some of the nutty things you've said in your many sock guises. And if Admin is right, you're a parastic lawyer.... :thumbsdown:
Fanjeera
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Talking about studying medicine... we are actually taught here today in school that in MOST target cells, testosterone works through an active metabolite, dihydrotestosterone, to which it is converted locally by 5-alpha-reductase (this info has been in pharmacology books for years now), so that's the basis for androgen functioning. Fortunately we still have 5ar1 to rely on and some cells like muscles can do without it, but that's definitely not enough for a young normal healthily functioning body. I'm still sure that if you study the human body entirely from top to bottom, you will see too that 5ar is very-very prevalent. At the moment there are studies that have only looked at selected tissues, BUT have found 5ar in most of them. That's the way how testosterone works: through dihydrotestosterone. So I can't believe there are people saying dihydrotestosterone is testosterone's useless evil twin brother. It's shown on schemes that finasteride blocks this conversion, so any medical student would say it's a very strong antiandrogen, and it's used against prostate hypertrophy. Thank god, we're not taught to cure balding! But it's mentioned so briefly that no doctor actually knows it anymore, because they are not studying pharmacology actively and just forget. And also, what's very important for doctors and drug developers, is that you have to be extra cautious about side effects, when treating people that are actually healthy and that's what balding men are -- not sick, so especially responsive to the drug's side effects. People with prostate hypertrophy don't care about the sides, though they definitely have them, because they are cured from a serious illness that caused them a lot more problems.
Seriously Allen, enough with this. You and I obviously don't agree, but if you can't be somewhat civil then please either stop posting or just ignore me, and i'll do the same to you. I'm getting sick of all these new members coming here with the sole purpose of discrediting and bullying me. Respectfully man, please back off. I'm happy to debate with you, but enough with this childish stuff. I've put up with probably close to a dozen members that specifically targeted me, and it's getting ridiculous. If you want to get your point across, this certainly isn't the way.
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Nope I don't, but i'm fairly interested in science and medicine. I'm taking some medicine courses through Coursera in my spare time. My brother is a doctor though, and I spend a lot of time chatting with him about it all. It's more of a hobby for me!
Quantum Cat
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you can't say that for sure. My GP says he's prescribed Finasteride for BPH for many men over the years and has rarely if ever had any complaints over sides
Fanjeera seems to speak in absolutes a ton even though many people come forward to say they haven't experienced any sides.