All we need to know about RU58841
- Thread starter waynakyo
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I've been thinking. Since most users of RU turn to it as a last resort, when reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride (!) fails, I wonder how someone who gets great response from finasteride, but chose to quit because of side effects, would respond to RU.
During the trial, they used 25 mg once a day, spread out on an area of 50 cm2. They used a vehicle which is identical, or at least very similar to the vehicle which supports minoxidil in Rogaine (50% PPG, 30% alcohol, 20% water). I don't think this is a coincidence. Rogaine was approved long before the study. I believe that the vehicle is just as important as the drug itself, and there is no doubt in my mind that they used a lot of time in the laboratory with Rogaine, to find a good solution, to make sure that sufficient amount of the drug penetrated the skin. Now, my point is that a lot of people are making their own vehicles to support the drug, without any knowledge of efficiency in terms of absorption. This would be a waste of the drug, and affect the result negatively, if they do it wrong.
Regarding claims of rapid degradation once it's mixed; I don't think mixing it every day is necessary. I think Bryan is right. However, to be fair to those with first hand experience, who claims that it does infact degrade rapidly, I think the solution should be mixed once a week. The animals were given 5 applications a week, and it's highly unlikely that they made a new solution every day. It's a waste of time. I assume they made at least enough for one week at the time. Most likely, they made all at once, enough for the whole experiment, and kept it refridgerated.
As for my thoughts about why RU58841 never reached the market as a hair loss treatment; I think they concluded that it's too similar to Rogaine. Why make somthing new, which apparently gives the same result after one year, as another product which already owns the market? Sadly for all of us, they were wrong if that's the case. It seems like minoxidil and RU would be a very good mix.
During the trial, they used 25 mg once a day, spread out on an area of 50 cm2. They used a vehicle which is identical, or at least very similar to the vehicle which supports minoxidil in Rogaine (50% PPG, 30% alcohol, 20% water). I don't think this is a coincidence. Rogaine was approved long before the study. I believe that the vehicle is just as important as the drug itself, and there is no doubt in my mind that they used a lot of time in the laboratory with Rogaine, to find a good solution, to make sure that sufficient amount of the drug penetrated the skin. Now, my point is that a lot of people are making their own vehicles to support the drug, without any knowledge of efficiency in terms of absorption. This would be a waste of the drug, and affect the result negatively, if they do it wrong.
Regarding claims of rapid degradation once it's mixed; I don't think mixing it every day is necessary. I think Bryan is right. However, to be fair to those with first hand experience, who claims that it does infact degrade rapidly, I think the solution should be mixed once a week. The animals were given 5 applications a week, and it's highly unlikely that they made a new solution every day. It's a waste of time. I assume they made at least enough for one week at the time. Most likely, they made all at once, enough for the whole experiment, and kept it refridgerated.
As for my thoughts about why RU58841 never reached the market as a hair loss treatment; I think they concluded that it's too similar to Rogaine. Why make somthing new, which apparently gives the same result after one year, as another product which already owns the market? Sadly for all of us, they were wrong if that's the case. It seems like minoxidil and RU would be a very good mix.
I've been looking closer at a couple of popular sources for RU; "FE" and "K".
FE: Complaints about impurity and smell. Brain fog seems to be a common side effect.
K: No reports of brain fog. Attempt of fraud. Story at HLH. A guy ordered custom synthesis of a chemical. Payed thousands of dollars. Never recieved what he ordered. Lies. Didn't get his money back before he told his story at HLH, although it was 1000 dollars less than he payed. Ships with false documentation. I read about a guy in Canada who got in trouble with the customs, because the chemical wasn't the same as stated, and the company which he supposedly recieved the shipment from, didn't exist.
Anyone want to comment on that?
FE: Complaints about impurity and smell. Brain fog seems to be a common side effect.
K: No reports of brain fog. Attempt of fraud. Story at HLH. A guy ordered custom synthesis of a chemical. Payed thousands of dollars. Never recieved what he ordered. Lies. Didn't get his money back before he told his story at HLH, although it was 1000 dollars less than he payed. Ships with false documentation. I read about a guy in Canada who got in trouble with the customs, because the chemical wasn't the same as stated, and the company which he supposedly recieved the shipment from, didn't exist.
Anyone want to comment on that?
MrBastard
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The attempt to scam or something else thread is here:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=92294
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=92294
Generalsim11
New Member
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Enden said:
# 500 Minoxidil 5%
Price: $ 16.65
Quantity and Ingredients: 65 mL. 5% Minoxidil (Minoxidil 50mg / mL) in a liquid base of 50% ethyl alcohol, 30% propylene glycol, and 20% water
Dr. Lee's minoxidil contains almost exactly the carrier that the tests of RU.If u can use 3 or 4 mililiter minoxidil nightly with RU, istendenfor and mix yourself. This is much better if you can do it. RU 50-100 mg in 2-4 ml of minoxidil, then spread over the area you want to treat.
minoxidil's cheap too
One more thing about K, I just read about a guy at HLH which ordered RU, and got another unknown chemical instead. Alarm bells are ringing.
Kouting ru vs. FE ru ?Jiggaman said:
"RU 58841 was dissolved in a vehicle solution consisting of 50% propylene glycol, 30% isopropanol, 2% isopropyl myristate, and 18% distilled water."Generalsim11 said:# 500 Minoxidil 5%
Price: $ 16.65
Quantity and Ingredients: 65 mL. 5% Minoxidil (Minoxidil 50mg / mL) in a liquid base of 50% ethyl alcohol, 30% propylene glycol, and 20% water
Dr. Lee's minoxidil contains almost exactly the carrier that the tests of RU.If u can use 3 or 4 mililiter minoxidil nightly with RU, istendenfor and mix yourself. This is much better if you can do it. RU 50-100 mg in 2-4 ml of minoxidil, then spread over the area you want to treat.
minoxidil's cheap too
"5% (50 mg per mL) (OTC) [Rogaine Extra Strength For Men (alcohol 30% v/v) (propylene glycol 50% v/v) (water){29}]"
The only difference is apparently 2% isopropyl myristate. I'm thinking of mixing RU with 5% Rogaine myself. However, I think I'll mix once a week. 1.25% or 2.5% per ml. I haven't decided yet.
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finfighter said:
Phosgene is used in an early step of the manufacturing process, according to Battmann's 1994 paper on RU58841. I used to have a scan available of that manufacturing process, in case people wanted to read that part of the paper. Unfortunately, GeoCities no longer freely hosts such scans for people, so there's no way I can easily make it available now. If enough people want to see it, I may use one of the other free services.
The bottom-line safety of using these versions of RU58841 from China is anybody's guess. You obviously would have no redress if something went horribly wrong in the manufacturing process, and small, trace amounts of some particularly noxious chemical (like phosgene) were left in the final product. Do you really think you'd be able to hold a Chinese company accountable for any damages? I think that's pretty unlikely!
Recently there's been a bit of a hubbub over the sale of groceries in local stores in cloth bags made in China. The bags were recently discovered to have been made with lead-based paints, and the lead can get onto foods stored inside the bag. In other words, safety and manufacturing standards aren't exactly hallmarks in the Chinese culture! And we expect their versions of RU58841 to be manufactured according to the same high standards as drugs made by American companies??
Bryan said:...You obviously would have no redress if something went horribly wrong in the manufacturing process, and small, trace amounts of some particularly noxious chemical (like phosgene) were left in the final product. Do you really think you'd be able to hold a Chinese company accountable for any damages? I think that's pretty unlikely!
That's what caught my attention about the "Big O" company being that the Canadian manufacturing standards should be more up to snuff with US. But what regulations are there actually, since we're talking about "research chemicals" and not pharmaceuticals/cosmetics?
Generalsim11
New Member
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Enden said:
That's what I think, too, hitting 2 birds with one stone! Is there anyone who has tried this, seems like a safe way. This is secured carrier for minoxidil and really tested chemicals. Bryan has some opinions on this?
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Enden said:
Be careful!! The full study whose abstract you posted earlier wasn't published in the medical journal, just that abstract. It's certainly not clear whether the scientists mixed RU58841 together with minoxidil in the very same vehicle for a single application, or whether the two ingredients were applied separately, at different times of day.
Of course. I assume they had separate solutions with minoxidil and RU, but they used the same vehicle. Applying the drugs at the same time, shouldn't be a problem unless there's an interaction between minoxidil and RU, and I don't think those drugs interfere with each other. I also assume that they did apply M and RU together, as they were researching mixes vs 5- and 2% M, and 5% RU.
I know assumption is the mother of all f*** ups, but you've got to take some chances now and then, and I honestly don't see the problem in this case. However, I do appreciate advice.
I know assumption is the mother of all f*** ups, but you've got to take some chances now and then, and I honestly don't see the problem in this case. However, I do appreciate advice.
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