All we need to know about RU58841

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antone

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Hi all, i'm new here, but i'm not new in MBP.

Ok, i'm on Propecia (9 month) , Ketokonazole cream but i it is not enough...

I'm planning to get RU, but the problem is the price. I know that it's not so expensive for 1 years treatment but we know we have to pay minimum 400$ - 10 gr all of a sudden. i can't afford this amount of money.
So, what can i do ? There is a way to get less quantities and so less money ??? there is any site??

Thank you guys!
 

MrBastard

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Enden said:
Of course. I assume they had separate solutions with minoxidil and RU, but they used the same vehicle. Applying the drugs at the same time, shouldn't be a problem unless there's an interaction between minoxidil and RU, and I don't think those drugs interfere with each other. I also assume that they did apply M and RU together, as they were researching mixes vs 5- and 2% M, and 5% RU.

I know assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups, but you've got to take some chances now and then, and I honestly don't see the problem in this case. However, I do appreciate advice. :)

Did you respond well hairvice when you was on finasteride? Just thinking of figuring out if that vehicle work good based on how you respond to it + el dutasteride's good on finasteride good on ru theory
 

Ende

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I've only been using 1 mg finasteride continuously from march to desember 2010. I was unable to hold the optimum testosterone/estrogen ratio for more than a couple of days at most, despite of all the tools I had (AI's and steroids; testosterone, androstanolone and estradiol), so I was forced to cut down the dose to 0.25 mg. I did a couple of more attempts, but the ratio is very sensitive, and it's hard to maintain without enough DHT. I'm a little overweight, so aromatase is probably more active in my case. Without Andractim, I get symptoms of deficiency, like transparent prostate fluid. I've been off finasteride for almost a week now.

My hair is still a little bit thin (diffuse), especially at the left side of the crown. I had a lot of miniaturized hairs in a NW6 pattern, and finasteride improved the condition of those hairs a lot. I'm wondering how the result would be after 1 or 2 years on, but I'm forced to deal with the sexual side effects. I definately respond to finasteride treatment, but I've been suffering from heavy side effects. I've been able to manage all side effects but ED properly. I know muscle atrophy is involved as well, but I don't know how severe the damage is, before my testosterone/estrogen ratio is optimal, and stable.
 

antone

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antone said:
I'm planning to get RU, but the problem is the price. I know that it's not so expensive for 1 years treatment but we know we have to pay minimum 400$ - 10 gr all of a sudden. i can't afford this amount of money.
So, what can i do ? There is a way to get less quantities and so less money ??? there is any site??

Thank you guys!


Anyone???
 

Ende

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No, 10g is minimum everywhere. If you want less, you have to buy from someone who's selling their stuff.
 

Ende

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Investigational medications in the treatment of alopecia
February 2005, Vol. 14, No. 2 , Pages 177-184(doi:10.1517/13543784.14.2.177)

3.1.2.4 PSK-3841: Phase II

A topical, non-steroidal androgen antagonist, PSK-3841 (formerly HMR-3841 and RU-58841), is being investigated in France by Proskelia for possible therapeutic value in Androgenetic Alopecia and acne. The compound was is Phase II clinical trials as of January 2004, and was originally researched by Roussel-Uclaf and Hoechst Marion Roussel. When compared with the antiandrogenic compound cyproterone acetate, PSK-3841 exhibited a 20% increase in AR binding. This compound binds to both the ligand and regulatory domains of the androgen receptor. PSK-3841 exerts allosteric binding effects and may provide a unique mechanism of action in the treatment of alopecia.

Imamura et al. noted that this compound prevents androgenetic follicular regression in bald stumptailed macaques; however, it does not promote follicular cell growth directly. Photographic and folliculogram evaluations of combined PSK-3841 5% plus minoxidil 2%, or minoxidil 5% versus previous results from each compound’s performance alone were compared. The most rapid hair regrowth in 1 month was observed in the PSK-3841 5% plus minoxidil 5% group, followed by 2 months for the PSK-3841 5% plus minoxidil 2% group. At 3 months, hair regrowth was comparable for both PSK-3841 5% and minoxidil 5% alone. At the 3-month interval, the researchers noted that both combined groups had regrowth of long-terminal hairs that persisted for 6 – 12 months. The combined groups also boasted greater anagen conversion and follicular enlargement over the individual compounds alone. It was concluded that the combined treatment groups experienced the greatest impact early on; however, after 1 year had elapsed, no difference was observed in the combined treatment groups versus PSK-3841 or minoxidil used alone.

Pan et al. compared the antiandrogen effects of RU-58841 with other known antiantrogens, hydroxyflutamide, Casodexâ„¢ (bicalutamide) and genisten in human prostate cells. PSK-3841 demonstrated suppression of DHT activation of the androgen receptor competitively, and in a dose-dependent manner similar to the other antiandrogens. Pan et al. applied topical RU-58851 5% to the bald scalp of stumptailed macaques. Researchers evaluated folliculogram results and noted an increase in the number of anagen follicles and a decrease in telogen follicles as compared with baseline. The PSK-3841-treated group displayed progression from telogen to anagen and an increase in follicle size as opposed to the control group. No systemic side effects were reported. PSK-3841, dosed at 100-fold the therapeutic tested range, showed no signs of systemic antiandrogenic effects. Pan et al. described results from RU-58841 as inducing “remarkable effects on hair and folliclar regrowth in the bald frontal scalp of macaques.â€

Brouwer et al. studied the effects of PSK-3841 (1%) in human scalp grafts on testosterone-conditioned nude mice. The PSK-3841-treated grafts were compared with controltreated grafts. The PSK-3841 grafts showed increased recycling. A second hair cycle was noted in 28% of the active follicles of the PSK-3841 grafts versus 7% in the placebo-treated group. PSK-3841 treated mice also had greater linear hair growth rates (LHGR). However, PSK-3841 had no effect on hair diameter.

Battmann et al. investigated PSK-3841 in the intact hamster model in which the flank organ area is evaluated; this organ consists mainly of androgen-dependent sebaceous tissue. PSK-3841 1 – 100 ?g/animal resulted in both a dose- and time-related reduction in flank organ area. No effects on T levels were noted at this dose range or mode of delivery. In contrast, the androgen-dependent sebaceous tissue of the flank organ area of the controltreated hamsters increased. When PSK-3841 was administered via the subcutaneous route, the higher doses of 300 and 1000 ?g/animal were required to yield the antiandrogen effects. Battmann et al. also tested PSK-3841 via percutaneous, subcutaneous and oral routes of administration in the rat model. Results reported that systemic antiandrogenic effects were only seen at the highest titrated dose of 10 mg. Results from the previously described experiments led researchers to conclude that PSK-3841 is a ‘potent local antiandrogen’ with a favourable safety margin.
 

MrBastard

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"It was concluded that the combined treatment groups experienced the greatest impact early on; however, after 1 year had elapsed, no difference was observed in the combined treatment groups versus PSK-3841 or minoxidil used alone. "

Whats the conclution on that one? That RU outperform minoxidil so its benefits are useless?
 

Ende

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No differences between the groups were noticed after one year treatment with RU, M and RU+M. Which means that M is supposedly able to recover everything RU is capable of. However, RU improves the condition much faster, and it will be able to maintain you hair for as long as you're using the drug, unlike M.
 

CCS

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That makes sense, though I'd still try some amemixel and tricomin as well to see how far you can get. I'll get RU later when I have money. This is nice that we now know how powerful it is.

Dutasteride 2.5mg/day regrew more hair than proscar, and probably did not have time to reach its maximum effectiveness. How does its recovery stats compare to minoxidil 5%?

Another thing to remember is that RU only works were you apply it, or withing 1/2 inch of there. Your sides may continue to thin, leaving you a thick patch where the RU is applied. I think you should stay on Nizoral shampoo regardless.

Bryan posted a study that confirmed that RU is more powerful than spironolactone. We no know it is more powerful than cipritone acitate.
 

Rabid

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Bryan said:
Enden said:
RU powder mixed with 5% Rogaine. They used the same vehicle for both minoxidil and RU in the experiment which Bryan posted. 50% PPG, 30% alcohol and 20% water. It's not necessary to mix RU in a separate solution, the way I see it.

Be careful!! The full study whose abstract you posted earlier wasn't published in the medical journal, just that abstract. It's certainly not clear whether the scientists mixed RU58841 together with minoxidil in the very same vehicle for a single application, or whether the two ingredients were applied separately, at different times of day.

Anyone have access to the full text, or able to verify the actual protocol used?
 

Ende

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CCS said:
Dutasteride 2.5mg/day regrew more hair than proscar, and probably did not have time to reach its maximum effectiveness. How does its recovery stats compare to minoxidil 5%?

Another thing to remember is that RU only works were you apply it, or withing 1/2 inch of there. Your sides may continue to thin, leaving you a thick patch where the RU is applied. I think you should stay on Nizoral shampoo regardless.
Avodart is probably superior to Rogaine 5%, which makes me wonder, since el_duterino continued to maintain his hair with RU58841, when all other treatments, including dutasteride - failed.

Topical drugs will be distributed around you scalp, below your skin. The drugs are effective where you don't apply too. Systemic side effects are possible with both RU58841 and minoxidil... However, it's important to keep a healthy scalp, and that's where Nizoral comes in handy if you're suffering from seborrheic dermatitis like me.
 

el_duterino

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i have been using RU for almost 3 years and yes, you don't need to apply it exaclty everywhere..the effect will spread a few cm around.
 

Fat-Elvis

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a little bump here, would start my own thread but saw no need.

Is there anyone selling pre-made solutions of RU? Or maybe just smaller amounts? And if you make it yourself, am I correct in that it appears as though buying a batch costs around $400? How long does one batch usually last you? How difficult is it to make compared to Zix, which is what I'm currently using?

Also, I've seen that RU has gone into PhaseII testing. Do we have at least a sense by now of what the long-term effects on the body might be, like cancer?

gracias.
 

MrBastard

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Fat-Elvis said:
a little bump here, would start my own thread but saw no need.

Is there anyone selling pre-made solutions of RU? Or maybe just smaller amounts? And if you make it yourself, am I correct in that it appears as though buying a batch costs around $400? How long does one batch usually last you? How difficult is it to make compared to Zix, which is what I'm currently using?

Also, I've seen that RU has gone into PhaseII testing. Do we have at least a sense by now of what the long-term effects on the body might be, like cancer?

gracias.

Not possible to buy pre made, or under 10g. Your only option is to team up with a friend and split it when it arrives.

If you use 25mg with seem to be the minimum 10g will last you 400 days. 200 days at 50mg per day.

Dont know how you make Zix, but in RU you need a high % alcohol like everclear proof 190 and PG. DMI if you want. A often used ratio seem to be 70%alcohol/30%PG.
Mixed opinions on this one... You can eather mix everyday or make a solution that last you somewhere between 2 - 7 days. Solution stored in fridge

Dont know anything about the phaseII testing. Never heard of any sides that last when you stop using RU.
 

keepinthehair

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after 1 year had elapsed, no difference was observed in the combined treatment groups versus PSK-3841 or minoxidil used alone. "


Damn, I hate to interpret this but it reads like this.

At the end of one year the three groups tested were basically equal to one another as far as growth/maintanence.

PSK-3841 alone
Minoxidil alone
Combined PSK/Min

Sucks.
 

Ende

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What do you think about 5 years...? RU58841 will halt the miniaturization process and won't loose its effectiveness, unlike minoxidil. I had been using minoxidil for half a year or so. Significant regrowth should be seen within 4 months in if you're a great responder. I didn't see much change with Propecia and Rogaine, but 3 weeks with RU58841... I've never seen anything like it. Drastic, cosmetic improvement...
 

keepinthehair

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According to how I read it, after 12 months the results were the same. It is vauge but may be interpreted that everything is maintained. I dunno. Need more people using it for long term. I just hope there is not a sudden drop off at the 12 month mark. What sucks about male pattern baldness treatments is that all the work and discipline for several years (five for me) can literally be washed down the drain if effectiveness is lost. :(
 

waynakyo

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how did this study surface ? I was not aware that there is a study with such conclusions ( that RU didn't do much at the end in addition to what M can do).

I am surprised. what is the comparison between this study and others ? how come we did not hear about this earlier on ? it seems old.
 

Ende

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This thread contains a lot of interesting information as well. You should read it, if you're considering using RU.
 

peloncete1989

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Enden said:
I didn't see much change with Propecia and Rogaine, but 3 weeks with RU58841... I've never seen anything like it. Drastic, cosmetic improvement...

Are you talking about yourself Enden? Or about someone you've seen face2face?
 
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