Analyzing the mature hairline

[Eureka]

My hairloss was triggered too early as well..

Accutane.. the devils capsule.

I'm not sure how conclusively the studies so far have shown as to how much of a role lifestyle plays. There are countless ones out there, and I'm anything but informed in the differing theories.

Got any links to some conclusive ones?

 

[s.a.f]

If I lead healthier lifestyle in the past, I might have managed to make my hair last longer, but the damage is done... My only hope for the future is that my more balanced lifestyle slows male pattern baldness down and I have some hair in my wedding pictures :whistle:

Here's the thing, since everyone has different levels of aggressiveness with balding, what might work for one person will do nothing for the other. No amount of diet or exercise will bring my hair back or improve it in the slightest. To the gp (who knows dip about hair loss) this idea that lifestyle effects your hair is detrimental to guys like me because it directly insinuates that we baldies are the scum of the earth who refuse to take care of ourselves and are undeserving of dignity.

Dude, come on!!!!!!!!

There are 1000s of articles out there that show smoking MAY cause hairloss, lifestyle MAY cause hairloss, fatty food MAY cause hairloss, etc... I smoke, I don't sleep enough, I don't eat enough, I am under stress, etc... I have a sh*tty lifestyle, and I'm working hard to change it.

No one implies that bald people are scum of the earth. You said it, we all have different level of aggressiveness with balding.

We all agree its genetic. Some of us are preprogrammed to be bald at 20 and some at 40. All I was saying is that, I think I was supposed to be in the group that goes bald at 40, but my lifestyle triggered an irreversible process 10 years too soon.

Do you want me to say sorry for not being as bald as you are?

Its genetics!!!!!
Do you really believe that a few cigs would speed up your hairloss by 20yrs?
Has it sped up the ageing of your skin or the rest of your body by 20 yrs?
I have always lived a healthy life, never smoked, rarely ever drank alcohol (did'nt have a drink for over 10 yrs) excercise regularly had a very strict diet the past 15 yrs.
And yet I was balding at 19 and nw6 less than 10 yrs later. Good job I wasnt a smoker I'd have been bald at 20!! :roll:

And although UCmans views may seem very negative and a bit extreme there is some truth in what he says.
The general public do have no idea about hairloss and a thick full head of healthy looking hair is one of the things that people always associate with youth and health and virility. (the Samson theory).
Ever seen an old man with a NW1? go and comment on his hair and see what kind of smug reaction you get.
People (who dont suffer m.p.b) really do associate in the same way as obesity due or someone who has lost their teeth due to poor dental care.

 

[ali777]

Its genetics!!!!!
Do you really believe that a few cigs would speed up your hairloss by 20yrs?
Has it sped up the ageing of your skin or the rest of your body by 20 yrs?

I didn't say 20 years. I said 10 years, but that was just for the sake of argument.

Smokers do die younger, so they do age younger. I'm not talking about smoking only, I'm talking about the whole lifestyle package. There are so many of us that are under constant stress to do this and that.

The answers to your questions:
Do I believe smoking accelerates aging? YES
Has it accelerated aging of my skin and my body? YES
By 20 years? That's pushing it...

 

[s.a.f]

You said you believed you should have started balding at 40 but instead you started at 20.
Smoking does not speed up ageing. Yes it damages organs ect but that damage is not ageing.
Someone who smokes heavily could get heart disease or lung cancer and die aged 40 but they would'nt have the body/face of a 80 yr old or the heart or lungs of an 80 yr old just a 40 yr olds organs that have been damaged due to smoking.
How can you explain all the heavy smokers with NW1's or the smokers who live into their 80's and 90's? Were they destined to live to 120 or something.

 

[ali777]

You said you believed you should have started balding at 40 but instead you started at 20.
Smoking does not speed up ageing. Yes it damages organs ect but that damage is not ageing.
Someone who smokes heavily could get heart disease or lung cancer and die aged 40 but they would'nt have the body/face of a 80 yr old or the heart or lungs of an 80 yr old just a 40 yr olds organs that have been damaged due to smoking.
How can you explain all the heavy smokers with NW1's or the smokers who live into their 80's and 90's? Were they destined to live to 120 or something.

Mate, you think I put all the hairloss down to lifestyle. I don't... I do admit it's genetics and hormones, however, I still believe as studies show lifestyle can speed up hairloss.

We apply minoxidil to improve blood circulation, but smoking has exactly the opposite effect of clogging arteries. It just doesn't make sense for a smoker to use minoxidil :dunno: .

Likewise, one can also reduce free testosterone in his body by exercising and reducing fatty acids in his diet. Again, in no shape or form do I mean to imply that all bald people are lazy bastards, but someone with mild thinning can probably lengthen the process by making subtle changes to his lifestyle.

Also, someone that smokes heavily enough to die at 40 will probably have the face of a man in his 50s. Smokers' skin looks older than non-smokers.

 

[kerzyguy]

my grandpa, smoked all his life, lived to 91, had 0 hairloss till 85(and thats when it started to even happen), so yeah, its pure genetics

 

[Thickandthin]

My hairloss was triggered too early as well..

Accutane.. the devils capsule.

I'm not sure how conclusively the studies so far have shown as to how much of a role lifestyle plays. There are countless ones out there, and I'm anything but informed in the differing theories.

Got any links to some conclusive ones?

Accutane did not accelerate your hair loss.

Accutane induced hair loss is more like a telogen effluvium.

Of course the internet is full of Accutane related male pattern baldness stories, but its the same logic as blaming weight lifting for baldness: it all just naturally happens around the same time. Teen wants to put on muscle, teen begins weight lifting, teen begins balding. Correlation does not imply causation.

Teen has acne. Teen takes Accutane for it. Teen begins balding. Again.....correlation, not causation. I could say that Accutane caused me to develop a receding hairline at 21, despite having took it at 16. Yeah, because it was stored up in my blood, and then decided to release itself at a later date only to manifest in the form of hair loss. Right.

 

[diffuse propecia]

This is a small section from my genetics professors hand-out, thought somebody may be interested:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a tendency, particularly among the lay public, to assume that the presence of a genetic component means that the course of a disease can not be altered ("if it is genetic, you can't change it"). This is incorrect, most of the diseases have both genetic and environmental components. Thus, environmental modification (e.g., diet, exercise, stress reduction) can often reduce risk significantly. Such modifications may be especially important for individuals who have a family history of a disease, because they are likely to develop the disease earlier in life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is fun to be in medical school, all I do is try to relate my lessons to Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[Thickandthin]

But male pattern baldness isn't really a disease. It's like greying of hair. It's absolutely all genetic. That's why is occurs even when the body is in top physical condition.

The only people to ever stave off genetically predetermined baldness in HISTORY are people who have reduced DHT levels in their scalp by taking a 5AR2 inhibitor.

No amount of cardio or healthy eating or stress reduction will ever change your balding genetics. I'm not really even open to the idea that those 3 can even SLOW it down. It seems to be a process that is completely independent of a person's overall health.

 

[uncomfortable man]

If I lead healthier lifestyle in the past, I might have managed to make my hair last longer, but the damage is done... My only hope for the future is that my more balanced lifestyle slows male pattern baldness down and I have some hair in my wedding pictures :whistle:

Here's the thing, since everyone has different levels of aggressiveness with balding, what might work for one person will do nothing for the other. No amount of diet or exercise will bring my hair back or improve it in the slightest. To the gp (who knows dip about hair loss) this idea that lifestyle effects your hair is detrimental to guys like me because it directly insinuates that we baldies are the scum of the earth who refuse to take care of ourselves and are undeserving of dignity.

Dude, come on!!!!!!!!

There are 1000s of articles out there that show smoking MAY cause hairloss, lifestyle MAY cause hairloss, fatty food MAY cause hairloss, etc... I smoke, I don't sleep enough, I don't eat enough, I am under stress, etc... I have a sh*tty lifestyle, and I'm working hard to change it.

No one implies that bald people are scum of the earth. You said it, we all have different level of aggressiveness with balding.

We all agree its genetic. Some of us are preprogrammed to be bald at 20 and some at 40. All I was saying is that, I think I was supposed to be in the group that goes bald at 40, but my lifestyle triggered an irreversible process 10 years too soon.

Do you want me to say sorry for not being as bald as you are?

Your misunderstanding me bro. I'm not trying to elicit an apology from you. S.A.F. has the right idea. To the average person out there who knows squat about hair loss, if they get the idea in their head that lifestyle choices and hair quality are directly related (instead of genetics) then they look at me and assume I am living some sh*t lifestyle and come to the decision that I must have no self respect. Yes, this has happened to me before. I've had people ask me if I am sick. I've had people ask me why don't I care about how I look. They are all suggesting that I did this to myself somehow and can't understand why I would choose to live in such a way that I go bald. I think that alot of people want to make it our fault, because then they can feel better about hating us and judging us accordingly. It IS genetic. I can't help it. I'm not a creep. I would like to assume that genetics are common knowledge, but there are still idiots out there that surprise me.

 

[diffuse propecia]

Androgenetic Alopecia is a disease, although if it is multi-factoral or not it would be impossible to tell until we know the entire mechanism of balding not just the DHT part, It is quite hard to tell to what extent life style affects male pattern baldness because it seems to speed up and slow down at random intervals. Even if a healthy person goes through male pattern baldness and turns to NW6 in two years, that is not an excuse to claim that lifestyle had no effect on his hair loss, for all we know he could of hit NW6 in one year if his lifestyle was terrible.

 

[uncomfortable man]

To someone with aggressive balding (destined to be bald), lifestyle choices don't make a bit of difference when it comes to saving or preserving your hair. I'm not saying that it couldn't make a difference to someone with less aggressive balding, but to pin us nw6,7 on not being healthy enough is just unfair. Can't you see that?

 

[diffuse propecia]

I realize that is very unfair, I just wanted to point out that lifestyle can possibly have an effect and we will not know until the proper research is done. Even if male pattern baldness is purely genetic then it still wont change people, I am sure if more people knew of propecia then there would be tons of bald men being looked down upon by people wondering why they do not use the drug, are they lazy , do they have some weird beliefs about medications etc.

 

[uncomfortable man]

I'm not saying that it doesn't play a role at all, but for someone with advanced balding, it is of little consequence. I do think that the gp is under the illusion that baldness is easily reversible when they see all the commercials and infomercials about hair regrowth products or transplants. They don't know all the pitfalls and catch 22's that come with this situation. So yeah, that is another reason for joe nw1 to think that it is my fault or I that I deserve this. :shakehead:

 

[Eureka]

My hairloss was triggered too early as well..

Accutane.. the devils capsule.

I'm not sure how conclusively the studies so far have shown as to how much of a role lifestyle plays. There are countless ones out there, and I'm anything but informed in the differing theories.

Got any links to some conclusive ones?

Accutane did not accelerate your hair loss.

Accutane induced hair loss is more like a telogen effluvium.

Of course the internet is full of Accutane related male pattern baldness stories, but its the same logic as blaming weight lifting for baldness: it all just naturally happens around the same time. Teen wants to put on muscle, teen begins weight lifting, teen begins balding. Correlation does not imply causation.

Teen has acne. Teen takes Accutane for it. Teen begins balding. Again.....correlation, not causation. I could say that Accutane caused me to develop a receding hairline at 21, despite having took it at 16. Yeah, because it was stored up in my blood, and then decided to release itself at a later date only to manifest in the form of hair loss. Right.

Mmm, I thought that way.. But Based on some of the things I've read.. And the fact that my hairloss started so early. Obviously it could be mere coincidence, But based on my genetics, and other factors. I find it hard to believe that I started accutane, had a shift in my hair around 3 months later and it continued to go downhill afterward.. And that was all going to happen anyway on the exact same schedule. Although Yes it is possible.

I don't think Accutane could give male pattern baldness to someone who was never going to have it. But I'm not convinced it doesn't trigger it in someone already preordained to lose their hair.



Oh and Ali, Feel better about being a smoker. Past tense though because you quit I think.

[youtube:12hexkfe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9O1Cv7wudU[/youtube:12hexkfe]

 

[ali777]

The only people to ever stave off genetically predetermined baldness in HISTORY are people who have reduced DHT levels in their scalp by taking a 5AR2 inhibitor.

So, you do admit that the cause of male pattern baldness is DHT?

Would you also admit that diet can affect our testosterone and free testosterone levels? Or, you completely deny the link between certain type of fat and DHT?

No amount of cardio or healthy eating or stress reduction will ever change your balding genetics. I'm not really even open to the idea that those 3 can even SLOW it down. It seems to be a process that is completely independent of a person's overall health.

So, you aren't open to the idea that lifestyle can affect DHT levels?

 

[Quantum Cat]

a person's lifestyle has no impact or effect on male pattern baldness.

Superfit athlete = bald. Obese alcoholic = full head of hair. And Vice versa.

However there is some evidence that lifestyle can effect generations' balding patterns. When Japan became more Westernised, rates of baldness increased among Japanese men.

 

[ali777]

a person's lifestyle has no impact or effect on male pattern baldness.

Superfit athlete = bald. Obese alcoholic = full head of hair. And Vice versa.

However there is some evidence that lifestyle can effect generations' balding patterns. When Japan became more Westernised, rates of baldness increased among Japanese men.

So, you don't think that you are contradicting yourself at all?

What does the Japanese study tell you?

 

[diffuse propecia]

a person's lifestyle has no impact or effect on male pattern baldness.

Superfit athlete = bald. Obese alcoholic = full head of hair. And Vice versa.

However there is some evidence that lifestyle can effect generations' balding patterns. When Japan became more Westernised, rates of baldness increased among Japanese men.

So, you don't think that you are contradicting yourself at all?

What does the Japanese study tell you?

that statement is flawed in many ways, it could be correct but until we have proper research done we can not make claims one way or the other,but for arguing sake it would seem that lifestyle does have an effect as there is more research pointing towards that direction starting with the Japanese study and then the fact that most genetic disorders are polygenetic so it is likely that Androgenetic Alopecia falls into this category, and we already know that hormones play a huge roll in activating the Androgenetic Alopecia genes and according to the green tea+soy studies food may have a big effect on hormone levels which would affect the expression of the gene.

the real question we should asking is if the environmental effect is significant, I think not otherwise we would see alot of people who managed to reverse or stop balding through diet but that has not happened to my knowledge yet. In my opinion Androgenetic Alopecia is similar to height which was once a well known gene only trait which is now known to be polygenetic after studies on identical twins reveled that even though they share the same genetic information there height was not equal, although the variation in height was minimal ( in the range of a couple of inches, unless one of the twins was severely malnourished ) this was enough to prove it to be polygenetic but clearly the environmental effect was not very significant a couple of inches does not really change a person from short to tall and attempting to model a lifestyle based on optimizing the environmental side of height development is both pointless and useless to most people. Androgenetic Alopecia could be similar in that there is an environmental effect but one that is so minute that it is insignificant, but it is still there.

 

[fodandahalf]

Right, I have had a sizeable forehead my whole life. I am 18 now and looking at pictures from my 11th birthday, it is no different. Bad haircuts and use of straighteners in the past worried me into thinking this high forehead was the onset of hair loss, but now I have had my first decent haircut in 5 years, I see no thinning, absolutely minimal temple recession, if any, as I cannot remember how straight my hairline was in the first place, and generally no balding whatsoever. However due to my NATURALLY high forehead, it may look like I am experiencing some recession and therefore vulnerable to ignorant guys like some of you in this post, claiming that a mature looking hairline at a young age means balding is inevitable. But no, because I haven't lost any hair whatsoever. Also, my dad has had his same hairline since he was in his early twenties, which includes receded corners. IT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS, not everybody is meant to have a ruler straight hairline.