Article: male pattern baldness Triggered by Sebum Flow

[Armando Jose]

I think Michael Barry is right.
" As the follicle miniaturizes, the sebaceous gland stays the same size, making just as much sebum as before for the now-smaller follicle, which is too much of course."

Boru write: "explaining why, as in my case, hairs can remain dormant for many years".

Where are located this dormant hairs??, in scalp?

Regards
Armando

 

[Boru]

I think Michael Barry is right.
" As the follicle miniaturizes, the sebaceous gland stays the same size, making just as much sebum as before for the now-smaller follicle, which is too much of course."

Boru write: "explaining why, as in my case, hairs can remain dormant for many years".

Where are located this dormant hairs??, in scalp?

Regards
Armando

Hi Armando
I had a fully developed Norwood pattern last year. The dormant hairs are regrowing in the Norwood pattern area, mainly in the front, top and temples. In my ignorance I assumed that the DHT, which attaches to the peptide receptors in the follicles, is really potent only directly from the bloodstream, but if the potency of the DHT is preserved in the sebum, this may alter the perspective, as there would be both freshly converted DHT and suspended preserved DHT. Do you have any insight on this aspect?
I am struggling to understand exactly how I have managed to grow much of my 20 year dormant hair, so I can improve my technique and pass on my experience, as do you and others here. There are many gaps of knowledge to fill in. Are you getting improved regrowth?
DHT shortens the lifespan of each hair as an individual entity. I assume that the more Testosterone one produces, the more DHT can be converted. When the follicle is minaturised, the peptide receptors shrink also, so the DHT progressively does not attach so easily, hormones have a particular size and need a receptor to match. We need a better, more detailed picture of the activities within the follicle in its various stages of normal growth, deterioration, and recovery. The hair around the sides of the head apparently have less hormone receptors, but also greater blood/oxygen supply, so better circulation keeps hormone balance.
The oxidisation of sebum may be a sign of poor circulation in the Norwood area. De-toxification of the skin, eg with the licorice extract the Japanese are working with, is one possibility, but there are many other possibilities. If the sebum blocks correct circulation the follicle may be less resilient in the presence of DHT. Is this virtually what you are saying?
I have been using licorice as a herbal supplement for many months, apart from everything else. My scalp skin is more healthy than before, so I suppose that my sebum is returning to correct circulation.
I may be proved wrong about some aspect of the science, but this is part of the pleasure of discovery, to have a better insight.
Thanks to these discussions, in my mind little pennies have been dropping, but there is a bigger penny to beat them all.
Boru

 

[Bryan]

In my ignorance I assumed that the DHT, which attaches to the peptide receptors in the follicles, is really potent only directly from the bloodstream, but if the potency of the DHT is preserved in the sebum, this may alter the perspective, as there would be both freshly converted DHT and suspended preserved DHT. Do you have any insight on this aspect?

The great majority of the DHT that affects hair follicles is the DHT that's produced right there locally inside the hair follicle.

Bryan

 

[Boru]

Thanks for your patience with us beginners Bryan.
Yesterday I found good scientific references at http://www.androbalance.co.uk
so I hope I will be versed in the correct terminology from now on.
Boru

 

[Boru]

Boru,
I do know this from reading.........sebum is full of DHT. As the follicle miniaturizes, the sebaceous gland stays the same size, making just as much sebum as before for the now-smaller follicle, which is too much of course. In fact, high levels of animal fats make the sebaceous gland larger and more productive and place more DHT molecules in the sebum. The Japanese have noticed this and blame it on the increasing rates of baldness there post WWII along with extra androgens in the blood stream.

Also, big point here, a peroxide in oxidized sebum has been implicated by Japanese researchers in dermal papilla cell death.

Im not saying Armando's theory is the whole explanation to male pattern baldness, but I do feel that sebum secretions reabsorbing back into the scalp definitely aggravates the philosebaceous unit.

Thanks for the pointers Michael. Yesterday I found some very good references at http://www.androbalance.co.uk
Have you viewed this site? I The subject of DHT testing seems to me to be very important, though apparently there isn't a big demand for the kits, as the company no longer provides them.
I read that we should aim for a T-DHT ratio of 10-1
Are there any other companies in the uk which provide DHT test kits?
Boru

 

[cruiser]

i dont know near as much as you guys about the indepth tech talk. but this is some of the best info ive read on any hairloss site in years. keep up the good reaserch. people like you WILL eventually find a better treatment. this is greatly appriciated

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi guys;

Thanks for the link.

I emailed them asking for the possibility of the determination of DHT in sebum is scalp hairs.

Armando

 

[Dave001]

New Hypothesis about Common Baldness
AJ Soler

[...]

This hypothesis provides a simple explanation of the characteristic pattern of hair loss and why Alopecia affected areas do not appear at the sides and back of the head. These are the areas we rest daily on absorbent surfaces such as the pillow, where sebum can be drained driectly, avoiding in this way its possible detention. ...

Complete citation? And what happened to the references? The article appears to have been truncated (giving the author the benefit of the doubt). :wink:

I need to find a more accurate time server with which to synchronize my computer's clock, because I had no idea that today was the 1st of April. opsblush:

 

[michael barry]

Dave001,
againstalopeciaandbaldness.com is Armando's web site concerning male pattern baldness. He examines baldness from the angle that sebum gets detained in the root sheath back downwards when it shouldnt (usually in those with straight thinner rounded shaped follicles, I think) and gets in the way of the stem cell migration to the dermal papilla in early angagen, goes rancid and elicits an immune system response which in turn leads to inflammation, and starts the long sad dance of male pattern baldness. He's really researched male pattern baldness, he's a chemist, and obviously intelligent. Doesnt mean this theory is right of course, but Im leavin' no stone unturned.

I think it really is interesting that Japanese researchers have found that a peroxide in oxidized sebum leads to papilla cell death and thought about Armando when I read it. I know on my pillows when I checked (they are about a year old, I was shocked at how much yellow film there was on em'. I have oily skin (which is good in your thirties in my opinion), but get oily scalp also. I wondered if those who bald may have a tendency to produce more sebum myself. I talked with a middle eastern guy once who told me that Syrian and Jordanian men with oily skin and hair bald fairly often as opposed to Saudi and Quatarian men who bald much less often and have very dry hair and skin...............again, not saying theory is right, but these are interesting observations to me.

 

[user1234]

Just a hunch but I suspect the overall population of men over six feet tall are impacted in the early 20's with hairloss issues because of the impact thier height has on quality of circulation.Women having less height and less dht and more hair friendly hormones are less prone.
Note:Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise for example are not over 5' 10" tall

lol I'm 5'6" and I'm going bald, my brother is 5'9" and that fool went from no Norwood, to a NW7 between ages 25-30

 

[Armando Jose]

male pattern baldness Triggered by “PROBLEMSâ€￾ in Sebum Flow

Hi,

More food for thought:

What is the model in hair loss predicted by the current androgenetic theory?

Androgens, and more exactly the DHT, is the trigger in common baldness. If DHT attack to susceptible hair follicle, then the process would begin at the puberty in all genetic predisposed people and also all the hair would begin to miniaturiced at the same time. In my opinion this theory don’t explain how is possible develop premature alopecia years after the puberty, and even don’t support the dynamic model observed. In premature alopecia or common baldness the bald area is increased when more hairs are affected and androgens are circulating in blood and affect to all “susceptibleâ€￾ hairs. Then, why one hair suffer hair loss before than other?

My theory explains well the dynamic model of hair loss. Receding lines and bald area in the crown are normal in this process. The hairs in the crown change its angle and direction, avoiding the contact among them and so making easier a possible problem in sebum flow. In hairline exist a similar situation.


Opinions?

Armando

 

[michael barry]

Armando,
Im playing devil's advocate to an extent with a question Ive wondered about. What is your opinion that perhaps the temple and vertex areas of the head have follicles that simply have more androgen receptors on them and intake a greater amount of DHT in the teens and twenties of a man's life and this is why they go first on the Norwood scale?
To continue, the hairs in the mid-anterior and "tuft" areas have a little less androgen receptors and intake toxic amounts of DHT a little slower and it takes more years to achieve complete miniaturization there?


Im working from the observation that Ive seen horeshoe bald guys with not only thin hair volume in their hippocratic wreaths, but the hairs that they did have were thin in circumference and the hairs on the top of my own head were much bigger than theirs on the back and sides of their "donor" area. I even thought some of these guys may have chest hair that was larger in circumference that the hairs in their donor areas. I considered the possibility that even the wreath areas of these REALLY bald men might have too numerous andorgen receptors for the hair to stay large.

Just was hoping for your ideas on this observation........
By the Way..........I still am sleeping with a snug fitting tobaggan on my head to hopefully soak up any nighttime sebum secretions, and trying to eat less saturated animal fats, and wipe my head with an absorbent towel a couple of times during the work day to hopefully absorb excess oil secretions. Not giving up on your theory or a few others Ive read. Im just trying to cover all the bases (LOL).

I think I see your point in your post though.........being if hairs are genetically predetermined to begin miniaturization why dont they just fall out in the teens when androgen hormone levels are highest and they are being practically bathed in DHT? doenst seem to make sense to me either, but Ive read that men with male pattern baldness have about twice as many androgen receptors as non-male pattern baldness men and just figured that some implacable level of DHT gets in these follicles with too many receptors faster and these guys lose their manes at 25-35 instead of 55-65.

 

[Bryan]

So, Armando: do you think Accutane is a sure-fire treatment for balding? :wink:

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Accutane made me lose hair when I was 18-19. It thickened back up afterwards. Accutane is a mega-dose of vitamin A with enzymes included to make the subject be able to absorb it (just taking 10 vitamin A softgels would go right through ya' as you wouldnt be able to digest it all without the enzymes to break it down).

Accutane is supposed to slow down the sebum secretions of the sebaceous gland which can gunk up skin pores, become rancid in the pores and lead to white blood cells flooding the infected area (whiteheads). THat stuff really dried my skin out and youre not supposed to get much sun while on it. Wish I never got on it, but I was young and impatient for my skin to clear up.

Its known that too much vitamin A is horrible for hair, but I forget exactly why. Hope Armando knows as Im to tired to look it up tonight (LOL)....

 

[michael barry]

Telogen Effluvium is what Tom Hagerty says accutane causes. Shortens the anagen phases while on the stuff. Didnt look into why. Going to bed. Nighty gents.

 

[Armando Jose]

Bryan;

Accutane could be beneficial in part to fight with common baldness, but is a very strong med and can cause hair loss (as fabricant say in the directions for use).

The real problem with the sebum is the acumulation and degradation to harmful lipid hydroperoxides. But sebum, the fresh sebum, is vital for a health hair. The solution could be any method to avoid the detention of sebum flow, and the the sebum eliminated is replaced with a new and fresh sebum.
But what are you opinion about the dynamic pattern of hair loss?

Michael Barry;
Thank you for your support to my theory.
My opinion is that all scalp hairs are identical at the beggining, even between man and woman. The biological machinery is so complex (Think about asynchronicity) that all hair scalp must be the same.
The result observed in these studies is OK, there is a different genetic expresion in hairs in different zones of scalp, because they are "ill" persons. In healthy people don't could exist these differences.

I hope in a few months your treatment work well.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Bryan;

Accutane could be beneficial in part to fight with common baldness, but is a very strong med and can cause hair loss (as fabricant say in the directions for use).

And when it DOES cause hairloss (despite the dramatic decrease in sebum production which the drug causes), what do you suppose is the specific reason for the hairloss?

The real problem with the sebum is the acumulation and degradation to harmful lipid hydroperoxides.

So do you think that maybe powerful antioxidants might help stop hairloss? Some "life-extender" types take large daily doses of BHT and other antioxidants. Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw (who wrote the book "Life Extension") were taking 2 grams/day of BHT! Interestingly, Durk claimed to have stopped his balding, although he attributed it to other treatments he was using at the time that were specifically for the balding. Maybe he was mistaken about what was ACTUALLY working for him? :wink:

But sebum, the fresh sebum, is vital for a health hair.

I'm asking you for about the fourteenth time: how do you explain the fact that people with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome) have luxuriant, flourishing scalp hair growth, despite the fact that they have little or no sebum production?

But what are you opinion about the dynamic pattern of hair loss?

Please explain what you mean by the "dynamic" pattern of hair loss. Are you referring to the fact that hairloss tends to follow a certain pattern on the scalp? Nobody knows the answer to that...

Bryan

 

[Boru]

A simple case? An increasing percentage of men produce too much dht after puberty, leading it seems to an increasing number of younger balding men. One cause could be too much red meat and animal fats in modern diets, speeding up the inflammation of all hormone sensitive tissues. My solution? Eat more oily fish, and drink lots of herbal teas, avoid eating starchy foods with proteins, omit processed foods, apart from tinned tomatoes.
However, restoring a normal testosterone - dht balance with oral and or topical medicine is the principle issue. I haven't been able to find another company to test dht. I think the kit which Androbalance used to offer was a saliva test. Testing sebum would be another useful angle.
We suffer from too much dht from every organ which can produce it. However I have learned from some very informative posts here that we shouldn't go too far, because we need some dht.
I discussed this issue with Johathan Kenefec at Androbalance, and the company might reapply for its assay on dht if there is enough new interest. That test might tell you what dht levels are in the bloodsream at any particular time, though the levels may not be constant.
The point of the test is to determine health issues relating to t/dht. Testing cell receptors and 5 Alpha enzyme is another issue for each of us. I do not know if one can say that most balding men have higher enzyme levels and/or more receptors, this is speculation which has not been answered by science as yet. As a newbie, I feel I know alot more this week than last week, thanks to good links here.
My hair happily continues to deminaturise, demanding an explanation. I want to tell you precisely how all the treatments I use are working together. So I must teach myself more about biology. One needs a harmony of all useful methods, and avoid counter productive or useless ideas, of which there are many. Sebum is obviously an important issue, perhaps because it is essential within the growth cycle.
Boru

 

[Bryan]

There is not so much as a SHRED of evidence that sebum plays any role in the growth of hair.

Bryan

 

[Boru]

There is not so much as a SHRED of evidence that sebum plays any role in the growth of hair.

Bryan

If DHT is present in sebum, surely sebum therefore has some kind of role in the growth of hair?
The hair is a complex organism I am just beginning to learn about. I won't rule out even an unlikely theory until I can prove it is wrong. Always expect the unexpected. Until science gives us a total picture, lets co- operate positively. I wish someone could explain to me all the reasons why my hair is regrowing after twenty years of male pattern baldness, until then I will study everything available.
Boru