DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[CCS]

I don't think oil is soluble in vinegar. It is not soluble in water, and a carboxylic acid would not protonate the fat, and therefore not make it soluble. Oils are probably a lot less soluble in vinegar than in ethanol.

I doubt vinegar would be any better than hot water. I'm sure people will get used to their own smell, but smelling like an out house is worse than being bald or dying a year earlier.

 

[Old Baldy]

College: Vinegar is 100 percent water soluble. It would remove any soap deposits because it is acid. It's ok to rinse your hair with vinegar diluted in water. I don't know the ratio but Widow would know.

In fact, Widow washing with water, then sometimes rinsing with vinegar, is a different way of "shampooing" your hair. I don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, the vinegar part is probably a plus?

It would clean his hair and scalp and provide an acidic environment for his scalp which is naturally acidic. I just don't see anything wrong with using vinegar but I'm not up on this as much as Widow.

Alot of people who make their own soap rinse their scalps and hair with diluted vinegar to remove the alkalinity(sp?). This is an ancient practice IIRC. My older female relatives did it all the time. They grew up in the 1890's and early 1900's. If IIRC it was fairly popular with their generation.

It's generally accepted that an acid enviornment is better for the scalp than an alkaline environment. However, your scalp will return to an acidic environment pretty quickly no matter what you use to wash your hair from medical info. I've read.

 

[CCS]

sounds time consuming rincing with vinegar. I think if i wash with baby shampoo, and leave it on my skin for 10 seconds before rinsing, I won't absorb much.

 

[Old Baldy]

sounds time consuming rincing with vinegar. I think if i wash with baby shampoo, and leave it on my skin for 10 seconds before rinsing, I won't absorb much.

No, no, you mix, like a tablespoon per pint of water and pour/massage it through your hair. Dry as normal IIRC. I don't do this but it's probably no big deal. In fact, maybe I'll try it. What the heck.

Vinegar IS a cleanser College. Put some distilled vinegar in a sprayer mixed at 20 percent with water and watch how well it cuts grease on your countertops. It will do that with your scalp/hair also.

Btw, most commercial hair conditioners are acidic. :wink:

Vinegar is just a different way of doing it. Maybe better? Certainly not worse IMHO.

Now how can you say Widow's washing method is time consuming with all the stuff we are doing!!

 

[CCS]

Well if I can dulute a tablespoon to a pint, and dump a whole pint on my head, that would be a lot easier to spread. I was thinking of putting a table spoon in my hand and trying to spread that, and it did not sound to me like it would spread far at all.

OK, I'll give it a try. It sounds a lot cheaper than shampoo, even though that is cheap. I'll test the pH though an make sure it is above 4. If it is, then I can't imagine it hurting me. I still need my NANO and Nizoral, though. I still feel skeptical about diluted vinegar cutting grease on my body before it drips down and off, and taking enough grease off that I don't feel icky when I towel myself off. But for a $1.50 bottle of vinegar, I guess it is worth trying.

 

[Old Baldy]

Here's a little discussion on conditioners. Go to the "sample conditioner" for a vinegar suggestion (they suggest 2 tablespoons per 8 ounces).

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei= ... 1&.intl=us

 

[docj077]

There is a lot of talk about estrogens in this thread.

An important concept that people need to understand is that the mutation in the androgen receptor in male pattern baldness removes the receptor from a normal process (normally, the production of growth factors) and forces the receptor/androgen complex to act in an abnormal fashion. Evidence seems to point to this complex transcribing TGF-beta, which is seems to be a process specific to male pattern baldness.

Normally, androgens are anti-inflammatory. Estrogens are just the opposite. They are pro-inflammatory molecules and they one reason why autoimmune diseases are so prevelant in females when compared to males. Androgens seem to protect males from developing these diseases.

However, quite the opposite may be true in the scalp in individuals with male pattern baldness. If one process is in disarray, then it's quite possible that the anti-inflammatory/inflammatory pathways with regards to hormones may have their feedback mechanisms damaged, as well.

 

[Bryan]

An important concept that people need to understand is that the mutation in the androgen receptor in male pattern baldness removes the receptor from a normal process (normally, the production of growth factors) and forces the receptor/androgen complex to act in an abnormal fashion. Evidence seems to point to this complex transcribing TGF-beta, which is seems to be a process specific to male pattern baldness.

Docj, you gotta be kidding. That doesn't explain why scalp hair follicles would be affected that way, but not body hair follicles. All hair follicles would have to have the same androgen receptors.

Bryan

 

[docj077]

An important concept that people need to understand is that the mutation in the androgen receptor in male pattern baldness removes the receptor from a normal process (normally, the production of growth factors) and forces the receptor/androgen complex to act in an abnormal fashion. Evidence seems to point to this complex transcribing TGF-beta, which is seems to be a process specific to male pattern baldness.

Docj, you gotta be kidding. That doesn't explain why scalp hair follicles would be affected that way, but not body hair follicles. All hair follicles would have to have the same androgen receptors.

Bryan

Hmm...good point. I'm still trying to figure out why body hair follicles respond differently. It's almost like the tissue surrounding body hair follicles is remodeled more often and prevents the same processes from occurring that occur in male pattern baldness. Anti-androgens still inhibit body hair growth, but the application of anti-apoptotic medications like minoxidil will induce hair growth on the body. Obviously, the upregulation of TGF-beta and fibrosis is occurring in people with male pattern baldness, but I can't explain why this process doesn't occur everywhere in the body.

There are very few options left. Another molecule, an outside environmental factor, or something internal that is messing with hormones and their ability to regulate processes.

Another question that I have is whether or not androgen receptors on the scalp are the same as androgen receptors in the skin. It would seem to me that they would develop from the same embryological tissue, but there are numerous regulators of that process and transcription factors that signal dorsal-ventral, left-right and anterior-posterior patterning rely on concentration gradients to function. It is quite possible that from an embryological standpoint, the androgen receptors in the scalp develop at a different time or differently from the androgen receptors in the rest of the body.

Do you have any ideas?

 

[dreadlocks]

Frontal growth

You guys all seem to know a lot. As a relative newbie, i'm pretty cluless but have started using propecia about 8 weeks ago and fingers crossed, seeing a gradual slowing of the hairloss process.

What is the best way to tackle regrowth of the frontal lobes/ temples? I know its one of the trickiest areas...anyone had any luck?

Saw Palmetto sucks...so does Fabao 101. Anyone seen any results from wheatgrass juice?

 

[dreadlocks]

Can anyone tell me a good way to grow hair on the frontal lobes?

 

[jackstraw419]

Ok. This is what I've found and it clearly states that T has the ability, similar to DHT, to inhibit hair growth.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /138/1/356

What products or existing herbs can decrease T or both (T and DHT)??

Our animal studies also showed that RU 58841 has a dramatic effect on hair regrowth in the bald frontal scalp of the stumptailed macaque, which may further support our in vitro culture studies showing that antiandrogens can antagonize testosterone-elicited hair growth. In summary, our studies may provide a model for further isolation of androgen-regulated repressor(s)/growth factors, which may help control hair growth and baldness.

 

[blaze]

How can treatments like Finasteride and Dutasteride cause peoples hairloss to stop and even regrow in some cases when testosterone is still floating about in even slightly higher levels than before treament?

You would think that if testosterone were a factor then these treatments would work because T would still being hurting/bindng the hair follicles in the same way that DHT was.

 

[Bryan]

It's a matter of degree: testosterone is still harmful to scalp hair follicles, but it's a lot weaker than DHT. As Paracelsus said, "The dose makes the poison."

 

[blaze]

So it would be a good idea to use a topical anti androgen as well then, like spironolactone?

How long does spironolactone bind to the androgen receptor for though?

 

[michael barry]

most people use spironolactone twice a day, once every twelve hours or so. spironolactone's half life isn't all that long, but its breakdown product (which is also a receptor blocker, carenoic acid) has a longer one.

Used twice a day spironolactone should be pretty darn effective. Proctor compares it to finasteride, but it works in a different way. Use both for maximum effectiveness.

 

[Bryan]

Ok. This is what I've found and it clearly states that T has the ability, similar to DHT, to inhibit hair growth.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /138/1/356

That study doesn't "clearly state" that testosterone has the ability to inhibit hair growth. Ask yourslf the following simple question: what if the inhibition of hair growth in that study was actually caused by the conversion of T to DHT by 5a-reductase, and not the testosterone per se? See what I'm saying?

Now having said that, there ARE other reasons to think that testosterone does possibly inhibit hair growth all by itself, but it takes more than just that one study above to demonstrate it. You have to look at combinations of studies to infer that possibility.

 

[okami]

My stupid theory:

Maybe we should increase the testosterone in highest level and then we will turn back to normal?

 

[Prevent99]

Let's not forget that people with 5 alpha reductase deficiency have high T levels but do not exhibit temple recession.

 

[phish]

people with type 2 deficiency of dht, have no hairloss. I don't know why people keep going on and on about testerone and estrogen. If testerone was a problem for the hair then they surely would develop a receding hairline. Yes dutasteride and finasteride dont work in everyone its not because of testerone or estrogen its because once the process starts it to late for some people. I will bet you anything if you gave finasteride right before the onset of puberty to some one that was destined to be bald that they would hold onto all their hairs for a long long time. finasteride alone has been proven to halt hairloss or regrow in 90 percent of people after 5 years. That is a crap load of people that held onto their hair, id imagine dutasteride to be more on the lines of 95 percent of people. The reason these 2 products dont work on everyone is because there is still dht circulating not alot but still enuff for people extremely sensitive to dht to cause hair loss. Im tired of people mocking finasteride saying a lot of people loss hair still when its not the case. Your on a hairloss forum so the 10 percent of the million of people that finasteride doesnt work for all gather here and rip finasteride apart so it makes it look like finasteride doesnt work for anyone. but its the same dozen people that finasteride doesnt work for that make finasteride look bad that post. In summary if you dont have severe side affects finasteride will do wonders for your hair maintenance for years.