DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study
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michael barry
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Bryan,
Thats good scientifically backed info.............I hope Widow's Peak will respond in kind while he has the chance.
Wookie,
You know man if the cast's irritating the skin DID in fact up the amount of alpha five enzymes around the papilla and root sheath of the arm hair follicles, that could explain the higher amount of arm hair we see under casts.
Perhaps (Im just guessing outloud) cold weather could be the reason those kids raised out in the wild get hairy.................the body might respond through whatever complicated set of instructions to the basic command that "Im cold, grow me some more insulation". Just a wild-assed guess on my part, no science to back that up or anything. It IS interesting how anorexics get that vellus hair all over and those kids you cited that were found living in the wild in that link had "hairy" bodies. Stephen had noted Razak's book about the Ice pack carriers and how the parts of their back that the ice rested on were unusually hairy.
A chiropractor told me yesterday (my lower back has a slipped disk which is so painful Im struggling to stand up right now), that cold packs applied to the back temorarily decrease blood flow greatly as the capillaries contract, but after you take it off, the blood flow is greater than ever, more than making up for the time that the "cold" was on. In total effect, according to the Doctor, 20 minutes on and perhaps 40-60 minutes off will decrease inflammation and get much more blood flow to any area and that cold packs used in this way are better for wounds than heat packs. He said he finds this in all the studies he reads on the issue.
In case youre wondering how I hurt my back,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,prepare to laugh..........................I lazily have slid my bed towards my computer and the computer chair out of the way over the past year. Leaning over the keyboard for the past perhaps 18 months, I think I have caused my first verterbrae above the "tailbone"---(not the real name for it, starts with "s") to shift backwards into my back. Its lined up pointing more backwards than it should be according to the X-ray, pinching a nerve. The pain is awful when I try to stand up. This sucks and I hope he can right my sorry *** in the next week or so.
Thats good scientifically backed info.............I hope Widow's Peak will respond in kind while he has the chance.
Wookie,
You know man if the cast's irritating the skin DID in fact up the amount of alpha five enzymes around the papilla and root sheath of the arm hair follicles, that could explain the higher amount of arm hair we see under casts.
Perhaps (Im just guessing outloud) cold weather could be the reason those kids raised out in the wild get hairy.................the body might respond through whatever complicated set of instructions to the basic command that "Im cold, grow me some more insulation". Just a wild-assed guess on my part, no science to back that up or anything. It IS interesting how anorexics get that vellus hair all over and those kids you cited that were found living in the wild in that link had "hairy" bodies. Stephen had noted Razak's book about the Ice pack carriers and how the parts of their back that the ice rested on were unusually hairy.
A chiropractor told me yesterday (my lower back has a slipped disk which is so painful Im struggling to stand up right now), that cold packs applied to the back temorarily decrease blood flow greatly as the capillaries contract, but after you take it off, the blood flow is greater than ever, more than making up for the time that the "cold" was on. In total effect, according to the Doctor, 20 minutes on and perhaps 40-60 minutes off will decrease inflammation and get much more blood flow to any area and that cold packs used in this way are better for wounds than heat packs. He said he finds this in all the studies he reads on the issue.
In case youre wondering how I hurt my back,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,prepare to laugh..........................I lazily have slid my bed towards my computer and the computer chair out of the way over the past year. Leaning over the keyboard for the past perhaps 18 months, I think I have caused my first verterbrae above the "tailbone"---(not the real name for it, starts with "s") to shift backwards into my back. Its lined up pointing more backwards than it should be according to the X-ray, pinching a nerve. The pain is awful when I try to stand up. This sucks and I hope he can right my sorry *** in the next week or so.
Widows_Peak
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michael barry said:
When I posted that I had stopped shampooing and my fallout had gone down due to it, Bryan jumped all over me and, in tandem with Jacob, ridiculed every post I made.
Bryan posted some Klingman study where people had stopped shampooing for 10 minutes (exaggeration) and had seen no change in hair count and blah, blah, blah.
I found what works for me and I won't be disrespected by someone who offers "advice", but is bald.
So, my treatment of people like Bryan and Jacob is a measured response to their troll-like behavior.
Disrespect is a two way street and at the end of the day, I'm never gonna care what someone who can't regrow hair, and attacks someone who does, thinks.
michael barry said:
Those are interesting studies and they seem to confirm my suspicions, i.e. that the combination of not shampooing and taking beta-sitosterol, has been keeping many homeless men hirsute.
I get kidney stones if I consume alcohol, so I can't take advantage of liquid beta-sis, unless I were to go the peanut milk route and that doesn't sound very tempting.
BTW, sorry to hear about your back problems.
I had back pain for years that doctors seemed unable to cure, other than giving me vicadin and suggesting surgery.
3 years ago, I found that taking the essential sugar glucosamine made my back pain disappear, and stay gone, after ingesting it for only one week.
Give it a try.
EDIT: A note about the cold "compress" thing....... me and several people have been rinsing our hair with ice cold water, in lieu of shampooing.
I do it about once every 2 weeks, or so.
You can really feel the rush of increased blood flow when the ole noggin warms up.
I read that doctors at Chernobyl have advised people to bathe in cold water, as it forces toxins from the blood, as opposed to warm water, which will open pores, allowing (radioactive in the case of Chernobyl survivors) wastes to enter the body.
michael barry
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Widowspeak wrote:
"EDIT: A note about the cold "compress" thing....... me and several people have been rinsing our hair with ice cold water, in lieu of shampooing.
I do it about once every 2 weeks, or so.
You can really feel the rush of increased blood flow when the ole noggin warms up."
I do this also. I had read about it initially on Loren Pickart's site. He believes in it, and noted that a guy named George Michael that used to run a bunch of long-hair salons believed in it. Michael apparently advised his clients to do it, and was impressed with what he say (he's retired now). Stephen mentions that he thought it would be helpful and I figured it, along with the scalp excercise would keep me covered from the contact inhibiton theory just in case Stephen was right. Im trying to cover all the bases like anybody else.
Have you ever considered, just as an extra source of beta sis to your scalp for its estrogenic-appearing activity-to use some of it topically? There is a patent out in Japan for the topical usage of beta sis. One would need to buy some of the beta sis capsules, drain them in a container, and use their fingers I suppose to spread it all over the head for several minutes before the shower for it to soak in. Ive seen a topical saw palmetto product distributed by hairmedics that is supposed to be left on the scalp for something like four minutes before the shower and thats supposedly enough. I do not know if there is an alchohol/propylene glycol carrier base to that stuff though. I can tell youre a naturals kinda guy. ..........the natural stimulants I know of are a form of vitamin C callled abscorbyl palmitate, red grape pulp, barley extract (that comes in liquid form, green apple extract (boil green apples would probably get that), and aloe vera gel. Ive thought about "making" my own little topical consisting of beta sis + all those things + blueberries just to see if they helped. I was going to use vodka or PGA as a carrier and the natural water in the fruit as my water-------all mixed up in a blender for about two weeks at a time. I intended to add arginine also.
Makes me wish I had a few androgenic mice to test it on. Oh well.
BTW.........I know vitamin B complex is good for hair. Tom Hagerty swears by brewers yeast (tons of vitamin b in that in accessible forms) and borage seed oil (GLA therein). Ive heard others speak very warmly of pomegranate juice (NO- releaser apparently in studies). Thats about all on the wholly natural route I know of.
"EDIT: A note about the cold "compress" thing....... me and several people have been rinsing our hair with ice cold water, in lieu of shampooing.
I do it about once every 2 weeks, or so.
You can really feel the rush of increased blood flow when the ole noggin warms up."
I do this also. I had read about it initially on Loren Pickart's site. He believes in it, and noted that a guy named George Michael that used to run a bunch of long-hair salons believed in it. Michael apparently advised his clients to do it, and was impressed with what he say (he's retired now). Stephen mentions that he thought it would be helpful and I figured it, along with the scalp excercise would keep me covered from the contact inhibiton theory just in case Stephen was right. Im trying to cover all the bases like anybody else.
Have you ever considered, just as an extra source of beta sis to your scalp for its estrogenic-appearing activity-to use some of it topically? There is a patent out in Japan for the topical usage of beta sis. One would need to buy some of the beta sis capsules, drain them in a container, and use their fingers I suppose to spread it all over the head for several minutes before the shower for it to soak in. Ive seen a topical saw palmetto product distributed by hairmedics that is supposed to be left on the scalp for something like four minutes before the shower and thats supposedly enough. I do not know if there is an alchohol/propylene glycol carrier base to that stuff though. I can tell youre a naturals kinda guy. ..........the natural stimulants I know of are a form of vitamin C callled abscorbyl palmitate, red grape pulp, barley extract (that comes in liquid form, green apple extract (boil green apples would probably get that), and aloe vera gel. Ive thought about "making" my own little topical consisting of beta sis + all those things + blueberries just to see if they helped. I was going to use vodka or PGA as a carrier and the natural water in the fruit as my water-------all mixed up in a blender for about two weeks at a time. I intended to add arginine also.
Makes me wish I had a few androgenic mice to test it on. Oh well.
BTW.........I know vitamin B complex is good for hair. Tom Hagerty swears by brewers yeast (tons of vitamin b in that in accessible forms) and borage seed oil (GLA therein). Ive heard others speak very warmly of pomegranate juice (NO- releaser apparently in studies). Thats about all on the wholly natural route I know of.
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Widows_Peak said:
Oh, now it's coming back to me: you're that "no-shampoo" guy!
You can try any kind of experimental treatment you want, but if you make an unusual specific claim (like irritation supposedly increasing 5a-reductase activity), I'll probably be there to call you on it.
Bryan
Wouldn't a more likely explanation just be that you have sensitive skin? An itchy, irritated scalp aggravates male pattern baldness by failing to provide an environment in which hairs can grow, correct? Isn't this why most people are on nizoral? I didn't think the irritation itself caused any more dht, it just made the hair weaker. SO, you got off the shampoo, got a healthy scalp, and if you're also taking an androgen blocker that can now regrow a heck of a lot more hair than it would have with your scalp being irritated. Occam's Razor.
Speaking of which, my scalp is constantly itchy and burning now, and I'm going through a nasty shed, so I'm going to switch to children's shampoo tomorrow.
Speaking of which, my scalp is constantly itchy and burning now, and I'm going through a nasty shed, so I'm going to switch to children's shampoo tomorrow.
michael barry
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Barnabas,
Nizoral is an anti-dandruff shampoo whose active ingredient is coincidentally anti-androgenic.
If your shampoo is irritating your scalp, but you still want clean hair, you can "finger comb" your hair in the shower and close your fingers----trapping a hand sized area of hair on the back side of the fingers and using shampoo against the hair thats on the back of your hand. You get clean hair, shampoo never touches your scalp. Would have to be done in 8-10 locations on top and the sides..........................just an idea.
Nizoral is an anti-dandruff shampoo whose active ingredient is coincidentally anti-androgenic.
If your shampoo is irritating your scalp, but you still want clean hair, you can "finger comb" your hair in the shower and close your fingers----trapping a hand sized area of hair on the back side of the fingers and using shampoo against the hair thats on the back of your hand. You get clean hair, shampoo never touches your scalp. Would have to be done in 8-10 locations on top and the sides..........................just an idea.
Widows_Peak
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Words simply can not express how much better my hair is without shampoo.
I swear it has become self-cleaning.
When I was shampooing, I never had dandruff problems (a few flakes here and there), itchiness or irritation, but if I went just a couple of days without shampooing, my hair would be all greasy and matted.
Now, I ride my bike 10 miles to work every day and my hair gets all sweaty inside my helmet.
I let the hair dry (about 10 minutes, depending on the length of my hair) and comb it and brush it.
It always looks great, is more mangeable than it was when I was shampooing, and it feels clean and healthy, with lots of body.
I also became concerned about skin irritation from using soap, so I started washing my face by rubbing sugar lightly on it as an exfoliant and rinsing it with water.
That got rid of my "problem skin" areas, the excessive oiliness I had on my face and the acne disappeared. (it's a real pain to be 34 and have acne and oily skin)
So, it's been my experience that WASHING DOES INCREASE SEBUM.
Also, I used to run my fingers through my hair and came away with 10-20 hairs in my hand.
Now I can do the same and come up empty-handed.
I've also noticed that the number of gray hairs that I have is going down!
I have a few gray hairs on both sides of my head (none on top, thankfully) that I have been trying to get rid of by plucking them out.
There's an old wives tale that states "pluck-one-gray-hair-and-two-gray-hairs-will-grow-back".
There might be some truth in that if you're shampooing, as some scientists have identified "chemical exposure" as one of the extrinsic factors that can cause hair to lose pigmentation.
I started out with 24 gray hairs, 12 on each side.
Now I have 6 gray hairs on one side and 8 on the other side.
I'm trying to get them all, but the gray hairs are more brittle than the other hairs and usually break off when plucking.
It's been my experience that if I can pluck (or "prune", as I call it) the entire hair shaft, the gray hair doesn't grow back.
Obviously the greatest benefit has been the regrowth.
Not only did the hair in the crown stop falling out almost entirely, but within 6 months or a year of not shampooing, I had tiny hairs regrowing that felt like cactus needles.
Many of these hairs have regrown and become fully terminal, as you can see in the pics that I've posted.
Basically, I do what the homeless do: no soap on the face, no shampoo in the hair and take beta-sis and vitamins (albeit in pill form, rather than liquid)
EDIT: A note on the manageability:
My hair used to get super "frizzy" when I shampooed.
It would just go everywhere and it seemed like I could never comb it and get it to look the way I wanted.
Now I can rinse it in cold water and let the hair either lay straight forward or straight back.
Then I let it air dry and when it dries, it remains almost perfectly straight, which is perfect, as I prefer to wear my hair in a "flat top".
I swear it has become self-cleaning.
When I was shampooing, I never had dandruff problems (a few flakes here and there), itchiness or irritation, but if I went just a couple of days without shampooing, my hair would be all greasy and matted.
Now, I ride my bike 10 miles to work every day and my hair gets all sweaty inside my helmet.
I let the hair dry (about 10 minutes, depending on the length of my hair) and comb it and brush it.
It always looks great, is more mangeable than it was when I was shampooing, and it feels clean and healthy, with lots of body.
I also became concerned about skin irritation from using soap, so I started washing my face by rubbing sugar lightly on it as an exfoliant and rinsing it with water.
That got rid of my "problem skin" areas, the excessive oiliness I had on my face and the acne disappeared. (it's a real pain to be 34 and have acne and oily skin)
So, it's been my experience that WASHING DOES INCREASE SEBUM.
Also, I used to run my fingers through my hair and came away with 10-20 hairs in my hand.
Now I can do the same and come up empty-handed.
I've also noticed that the number of gray hairs that I have is going down!
I have a few gray hairs on both sides of my head (none on top, thankfully) that I have been trying to get rid of by plucking them out.
There's an old wives tale that states "pluck-one-gray-hair-and-two-gray-hairs-will-grow-back".
There might be some truth in that if you're shampooing, as some scientists have identified "chemical exposure" as one of the extrinsic factors that can cause hair to lose pigmentation.
I started out with 24 gray hairs, 12 on each side.
Now I have 6 gray hairs on one side and 8 on the other side.
I'm trying to get them all, but the gray hairs are more brittle than the other hairs and usually break off when plucking.
It's been my experience that if I can pluck (or "prune", as I call it) the entire hair shaft, the gray hair doesn't grow back.
Obviously the greatest benefit has been the regrowth.
Not only did the hair in the crown stop falling out almost entirely, but within 6 months or a year of not shampooing, I had tiny hairs regrowing that felt like cactus needles.
Many of these hairs have regrown and become fully terminal, as you can see in the pics that I've posted.
Basically, I do what the homeless do: no soap on the face, no shampoo in the hair and take beta-sis and vitamins (albeit in pill form, rather than liquid)
EDIT: A note on the manageability:
My hair used to get super "frizzy" when I shampooed.
It would just go everywhere and it seemed like I could never comb it and get it to look the way I wanted.
Now I can rinse it in cold water and let the hair either lay straight forward or straight back.
Then I let it air dry and when it dries, it remains almost perfectly straight, which is perfect, as I prefer to wear my hair in a "flat top".
docj077
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Widows_Peak,
I'd be very interested to hear more about your possible shampoo-induced hair loss or just how not shampooing is going for you.
Personally, my hair gets very oily and matted down whenever I use a shampoo that is anything other than organic. I use a tree tea shampoo and then an organic peppermint shampoo after and that helps the situation.
Perhaps, I will try not shampooing for a while and see how that makes me feel. It's just that if I wet my hair and don't shampoo it, it feels like an oily mess. Does that go away after awhile or do I just need to rinse my hair better? Does hot or cold water make a difference?
Do you have any pictures of your before and after adventures in shampooing? I would really like to see the results.
This interests me, so be patient if I'm a little slow to understand.
I'd be very interested to hear more about your possible shampoo-induced hair loss or just how not shampooing is going for you.
Personally, my hair gets very oily and matted down whenever I use a shampoo that is anything other than organic. I use a tree tea shampoo and then an organic peppermint shampoo after and that helps the situation.
Perhaps, I will try not shampooing for a while and see how that makes me feel. It's just that if I wet my hair and don't shampoo it, it feels like an oily mess. Does that go away after awhile or do I just need to rinse my hair better? Does hot or cold water make a difference?
Do you have any pictures of your before and after adventures in shampooing? I would really like to see the results.
This interests me, so be patient if I'm a little slow to understand.
Widows_Peak
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docj077 said:
I'm not 100% sure if it's completely "shampoo-induced", but my hair got alot better after I stopped using shampoo.
The sulphates in shampoo are what I'm concerned about, so make sure that your organic shampoo doesn't have Sodium Laureth Sulphate, Ammonia Laureth Sulphate, DEA, Dimethicone, Mineral Oils, etc.
I suggest that you research the ingredients in your shampoo.
The only that I've found that is actually dangerous is MIT.
Methylisothiazoline, or MIT, causes neurological damage, according to Researchers at the National Institutes of Health.
You might wanna check this page out.
It's pretty objective and mentions that SLS is an irritant.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/shampoo.asp
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/nws/conte ... rouble.asp
"We did a study using diluted SLS as an eye drop. We put the test amount on the eye of a rabbit and after a certain amount of time we found that SLS got inside the tissues, heart, brain, lungs, but in very minute amounts," Dr. Green said. "Second, all of it washed out in 96 hours."
This is what bothers me.
SLS becomes systemic and it takes 4 days to get it out when it's diluted.
How long does it take to get out if you're shampooing everyday?
Does it ever get out?
What EXACTLY does decades of exposure to this detergent do to your brain, heart and lungs?
Getting back to my experiences......
After I quit shampooing, my hair got really oily for a few weeks and I rinsed nightly with Apple Cider Vinegar and cold water to break up the sebum during that time.
After my hair normalized, I only had to rinse it with cold water once a week.
Almost 2 years later, I only need to rinse it once every 2 weeks for most of the year.
However, since I'm riding 100 miles a week on my bike in the summer, my hair gets really sweaty, so I do it once a week.
Brushing and combing my hair keeps it from "clumping up" and getting really stringy looking.
My pics are at
http://hairregrowth.blogspot.com
I think I've covered everything else you asked in my other posts.
Bear in mind that I credit beta-sis with regrowing the hair in my temples and that I recommend not shampooing AND taking beta-sis.
Some people have stopped using shampoo and stopped losing hair and others have not.
Nothing works for everyone, but everyone should question whether they should drown their scalp in irritants and toxic chemicals, when there's no need to.
docj077
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Well Widows_Peak,
I will definitely take your results into consideration. I really want to reduce the oiliness of my hair and I think the shampoo that I use removes the oil, but actually causes my hair to get oily faster once I clean it.
I went out and bought some baby shampoo, so I'm going to try that for a while to see if I can regulate my scalp oil a little better.
Nice pics, by the way. Your hair is looking very nice.
I will definitely take your results into consideration. I really want to reduce the oiliness of my hair and I think the shampoo that I use removes the oil, but actually causes my hair to get oily faster once I clean it.
I went out and bought some baby shampoo, so I'm going to try that for a while to see if I can regulate my scalp oil a little better.
Nice pics, by the way. Your hair is looking very nice.
powersam
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cutting out shampoo did good things for my hair also. not going to comment on anything else about it, just that my scalp is no longer irritated and my hair looks far better. but then again im using dutasteride an minoxidil also. i really just think that i have sensitive skin (eczema on hands etc) and any kind of shampoo was too harsh for it.
docj077
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Bryan said:
I aware of this fact, but I want to do my own little experiment. Sebaceous gland secretion should be regulated by hormonal controls, as well as, neural in some instances. I just want to see if I can use a shampoo that will still allow my sebaceous glands to function properly while still being as gentle as possible on my scalp.
The oiliness of my scalp doesn't concern me. The brief tickling sensation, followed by pain, which is finally followed by my hair falling out is what concerns me and it seems as though this happens more often when I use an irritating shampoo or if I use any product in my hair. Maybe my scalp is just weird like that.
docj077
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Bryan said:
No, I'm just on a quest to find a good shampoo that doesn't strip my hair of it's naturally produced compounds.
I've tried the baby shampoo the last couple of days and my hair feels pretty good. Is it better than other shampoos I've used? I'm not sure yet.
If a person could control irritation and sebum productio with a shampoo, young men and women with acne around the world would rejoice. However, both you and I know this isn't true and I'm even doubtful about the shampoo preventing irritation.
Like I said, it's just a little experiment with the only objective and subjective evidence coming from myself. I don't plan on publishing a study or anything.
G
Guest
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Redken makes good shampoos, but they're expensive.
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docj077 said:
Then what did you mean when you said that shampooing your hair makes it get oilier faster?
BTW, Kligman and his colleagues did a monumental set of experiments which indicated that there's no danger of "over-shampooing" your hair. Even removing ALL oils by washing the hair with ether had no adverse effect! :freaked: Here's a quote from it ("Studies on the Effect of Shampoos on Scalp Lipids and Bacteria", Kligman, McGinley, and Leyen, from the book "Hair Research", 1981):
docj077 said:
What exactly do you mean by "control sebum production"? Shampooing with any old shampoo will certainly "control" it in the sense that it will wash it away, but the only way to reduce the actual production of sebum would be to use a medicated shampoo which has antiandrogenic properties (as Nizoral apparently does), or inhibits it in some other unspecified manner.
Bryan
docj077
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Bryan,
You're looking too deep into what I'm saying. I'm just switching shampoos for the sake of switching shampoos.
I'm not trying to usurp modern biological theory regarding sebaceous glands and their secretory mechanisms.
Most of what I said was silly hypotheticals. You can't change sebum production using a shampoo unless it's an anti-androgen. However, it is possible to find a shampoo that doesn't strip your hair of its natural oils without making the hair dry and lifeless. That's the type of shampoo I'm looking for right now and baby shampoo is looking like what I need.
You're looking too deep into what I'm saying. I'm just switching shampoos for the sake of switching shampoos.
I'm not trying to usurp modern biological theory regarding sebaceous glands and their secretory mechanisms.
Most of what I said was silly hypotheticals. You can't change sebum production using a shampoo unless it's an anti-androgen. However, it is possible to find a shampoo that doesn't strip your hair of its natural oils without making the hair dry and lifeless. That's the type of shampoo I'm looking for right now and baby shampoo is looking like what I need.