DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[Widows_Peak]

You're starting to see what I mean about Bryan and the no-shampoo thing.
He really gets his panties in a bunch over it.

He swears over and over that shampooing (and soap, since both have SLS) has no effect on sebum production, because he can cite studies that were done 25 years ago that say it doesn't.

Never mind that I stopped shampooing and saw that my scalp got less irritated and my hair got less oily.

Never mind that I stopped washing my face with soap and the acne, "problem skin" and oiliness disappeared.

Cling blindly to the Klingman study, as it is the only source of truth.

Meanwhile in the real world, the only truth I've found is that you don't need soap on your face or shampoo on your head and they probably do more harm than good.

 

[powersam]

i read those kligman studies and they seemed a little bit outside of nature to me. like they would suspend a hair in between two wires etc rather than testing sebum production of an actual living pore. did they factor in temperature differences or anything? or maybe i read it wrong, wouldnt be surprised. all i know is that shampoo did me wrong, and being without shampoo does me good. soap too. cept for the cocknballs and arsecrack, girls dont like cheese dick.

 

[Widows_Peak]

Amen, brother !

It's really simple:

Shampoo (and soap) strips the oils from skin and hair.
Body makes oil for stripped skin and hair.

Stop using soap and shampoo.
Skin and hair doesn't get stripped of oils.
Body doesn't make oil for skin and hair.

As an aside.......I will never understand why people like Bryan, Farrell, Jacob and a few others, get so worked up when you mention any problems with shampoo and/or that you're not using shampoo and your hair was never better.
They instantly become hostile and that makes me wonder what their agenda REALLY is.........

 

[Bryan]

i read those kligman studies and they seemed a little bit outside of nature to me. like they would suspend a hair in between two wires etc rather than testing sebum production of an actual living pore.

They _did_ test sebum production of living pores. The "wire" test to which you refer was for something completely different. It was used to show that sebum doesn't naturally "wick" along the length of hairs. It had nothing whatsoever to do with sebum production.

did they factor in temperature differences or anything?

Yes they did.

or maybe i read it wrong, wouldnt be surprised.

Sam, have you actually read any of those studies?

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Never mind that I stopped shampooing and saw that my scalp got less irritated and my hair got less oily.

LOL! Try measuring your sebum production in a scientific manner. You'll be surprised at the results! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Widows_Peak]

LOL! Try not using shampoo for 6 weeks and you'll see that your precious Klingman studies are wrong.

Why don't you read a REAL study done, not 25 years ago, like the one you spout on and on about, but one done in 2003 THAT PROVES WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING.

'Bad hair days', scalp sebum excretion and the menstrual cycle
M Pattie Birch & Andrew Messenger

Background Many women complain that their hair is periodically unmanageable, popularly known as 'bad hair days' (BHDs). At an anecdotal level BHDs are more common around the time of menstruation and, in view of previous studies reporting menstrual variation in sebum excretion, the authors hypothesised that changes in scalp sebum levels during the menstrual cycle might contribute to perceive differences in hair quality.

Aims To test whether there is a relationship between BHDs, the menstrual cycle and scalp sebum excretion.

Methods Thirteen women were studied through three menstrual cycles. Sebum levels on the scalp and forehead were measured twice weekly using a Sebumeter and each subject kept a record of hair quality and hair washing practice.

Results BHDs occurred throughout the menstrual cycle but were more common during menstruation. There was no discernible variation in sebum levels on the scalp or forehead during the menstrual cycle and there was no correlation between individual mean skin sebum levels and the frequency of BHDs. However, BHDs were more common in those women who washed their hair infrequently, although the association between the frequency of hair washing and BHDs just failed to reach statistical significance (p = 0.06).

Conclusions BHDs are more common during menstruation and in women who wash their hair infrequently. This may relate to a build-up of sebum on the hair but menstrual variations in the frequency of BHDs are unrelated to sebum levels.

Sorry, Bryan.

It works just like I said it did.
Shampoo hair = stripped oils = more sebum
No shampoo = no stripped oils = too much sebum = BHD ( however after you go for a few weeks without shampooing, your body stops producing that excess sebum).

Of course, now you'll disbelieve that.
Will you also disbelieve this?

http://www.azcentral.com/health/kids/ar ... ampoo.html

Bad shampoo for Boys?

By Jeffrey G. Ghassemi
The Washington Post
Jul. 5, 2006 02:46 PM


A preliminary finding presented at the Endocrine Society's conference last month could prompt parents to read product labels more closely. The unpublished research suggests that shampoos, soaps and body lotions containing lavender and tea tree oils - commonly added for their aromas and marketing cachet - may cause hormonal imbalances and breast growth in young boys.
The study was carried out by scientists at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) after a Denver pediatric endocrinologist reported abnormal breast development, known as gynecomastia, in five boys, aged 4 to 7, who used products containing the oils. The symptoms subsided after the boys stopped using the products.

NIEHS researchers Derek Henley and Kenneth Korach tested the effects of lavender and tea tree oils on human breast cancer cells. They found that both oils mimicked estrogen (a hormone that promotes the development of female breasts) while reducing the activity of androgens, which inhibit such growth. "Boys are getting a double hit," said Korach, who added that this hormonal imbalance may explain the Denver cases.

Keep on shampooing, Bryan.

I'll take a bus from Austin to Houston and look for ya.
You'll be the guy in the bra telling everyone how good shampoo makes your bald head look, while theyre all checking out your rack.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[michael barry]

Widow's Peak,

Estrogenic mimicking is almost certainly the way that beta sitosterol works. By the way.....................my pine oil experiment is starting to show results. Even though I picked the absolute worst place on the bod to test it (I wasn't thinking about how many times a day at work I have to wash my hands...................I really only have the stuff on while I sleep. I need to start putting beta sis on my half my face or neck where it doesnt get washed off so much).

Lavendar was one of the old "essential oils" that have been used for male hair probably since ancient Babylon. Rosemary is pretty much in the same boat. Tea tree oil apparently has phytoestrogens in it also. There are tea tree oil shampoos, and Ive see tea-tree oil based topicals for hairloss at the CVS drug store. Nasser Razack puts tea tree oil in Crinagen.

WidowsPeak, in my opinion the boys are getting gyno because they wash their whole bod with tea tree and lavendar soap. If it was merely in the shampoo.....................it probably wouldnt' get to the receptor sites on the breast to cause the gyno in a great amount. If you dont like commercial grade shampoo or soap.......................you can make it at home naturally also. Or, you can just bathe with water. It was good enough for thousands of years. Might add a little scent to the bath though. I hope you DO bathe though.................................the French dont realize how bad they smell to others.

 

[wookster]

Ingest large doses of betra-sitosterol and you might regrow scalp hair but you will also experience estrogenic effects?

http://forests.org/archive/america/millwast.htm

In 1979, it was shown that a common estrogen-mimicking chemical
in woody plants --beta-sitosterol --could affect the reproductive
system of rabbits.[14] By the mid-1980s, researchers
demonstrated similar effects of beta-sitosterol on mice and rats.

[...]

In 1995, Van Der Kraak pointed out that pulp mill waste contains
280 to 1200 parts per billion (ppb) of beta-sitosterol, from the
bark of the trees being turned into pulp. It is the same
beta-sitosterol that has been shown to affect the reproductive
systems of rabbits, mice, rats, and sheep.

 

[Bryan]

Sorry, Bryan.

It works just like I said it did.
Shampoo hair = stripped oils = more sebum
No shampoo = no stripped oils = too much sebum = BHD ( however after you go for a few weeks without shampooing, your body stops producing that excess sebum).

I personally don't care if you don't believe the scientific evidence. It's no skin off my nose.

Bryan

 

[Widows_Peak]

Widow's Peak,

Estrogenic mimicking is almost certainly the way that beta sitosterol works. By the way.....................my pine oil experiment is starting to show results. Even though I picked the absolute worst place on the bod to test it (I wasn't thinking about how many times a day at work I have to wash my hands...................I really only have the stuff on while I sleep. I need to start putting beta sis on my half my face or neck where it doesnt get washed off so much).

Lavendar was one of the old "essential oils" that have been used for male hair probably since ancient Babylon. Rosemary is pretty much in the same boat. Tea tree oil apparently has phytoestrogens in it also. There are tea tree oil shampoos, and Ive see tea-tree oil based topicals for hairloss at the CVS drug store. Nasser Razack puts tea tree oil in Crinagen.

WidowsPeak, in my opinion the boys are getting gyno because they wash their whole bod with tea tree and lavendar soap. If it was merely in the shampoo.....................it probably wouldnt' get to the receptor sites on the breast to cause the gyno in a great amount. If you dont like commercial grade shampoo or soap.......................you can make it at home naturally also. Or, you can just bathe with water. It was good enough for thousands of years. Might add a little scent to the bath though. I hope you DO bathe though.................................the French dont realize how bad they smell to others.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you, Mr. Barry.

From the research I've done, phytoestrogens that are ingested work like a lock in a key.
They block the body's intake of estrogens and when they reach androgen receptor sites, they signal the body that it doesn't need to convert testosterone to estradiol.

http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/Aug04.pdf

BETA-SITOSTEROL inhibits the conversion of Testosterone to Dihydrotestosterone and Estradiol (by inhibiting the 5-Alpha Reductase and Aromatase enzymes)

I can't speak to how they work when they are absorbed from extrinsic sources, but the experiences that the boys are having make me think that the "control mechanisms" don't function as well when substances are absorbed, rather than ingested.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abs ... 48/19/1855

Estrogen Excess Associated with Novel Gain-of-Function Mutations Affecting the Aromatase Gene

Makio Shozu, M.D., Ph.D., Siby Sebastian, Ph.D., Kazuto Takayama, M.D., Ph.D., Wei-Tong Hsu, M.D., Roger A. Schultz, Ph.D., Kirk Neely, M.D., Michael Bryant, M.D., and Serdar E. Bulun, M.D.

Background: Gynecomastia of prepubertal onset may result from increased estrogen owing to excessive aromatase activity in extraglandular tissues. A gene in chromosome 15q21.2 encodes aromatase, the key enzyme for estrogen biosynthesis. Several physiologic tissue-specific promoters regulate the expression of aromatase, giving rise to messenger RNA (mRNA) species with an identical coding region but tissue-specific 5'-untranslated regions in placenta, gonads, brain, fat, and skin.

Methods: We studied skin, fat, and blood samples from a 36-year-old man, his 7-year-old son, and an unrelated 17-year-old boy with severe gynecomastia of prepubertal onset and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism caused by elevated estrogen levels.

Results: Aromatase activity and mRNA levels in fat and skin and whole-body aromatization of androstenedione were severely elevated. Treatment with an aromatase inhibitor decreased serum estrogen levels and normalized gonadotropin and testosterone levels. The 5'-untranslated regions of aromatase mRNA contained the same sequence (FLJ) in the father and son and another sequence (TMOD3) in the unrelated boy; neither sequence was found in control subjects. These 5'-untranslated regions normally make up the first exons of two ubiquitously expressed genes clustered in chromosome 15q21.2–3 in the following order (from telomere to centromere): FLJ, TMOD3, and aromatase. The aromatase gene is normally transcribed in the direction opposite to that of TMOD3 and FLJ. Two distinct heterozygous inversions reversed the direction of the TMOD3 or FLJ promoter in the patients.

Conclusions: Heterozygous inversions in chromosome 15q21.2–3, which caused the coding region of the aromatase gene to lie adjacent to constitutively active cryptic promoters that normally transcribe other genes, resulted in severe estrogen excess owing to the overexpression of aromatase in many tissues.

Source Information

From the Departments of Obstetrics and Gynecology and Molecular Genetics, University of Illinois at Chicago, Chicago (M.S., S.S., S.E.B.); the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Kanazawa University, Kanazawa, Japan (M.S.); the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Tohoku University, Sendai, Japan (K.T.); the Department of Pediatrics, Rush Medical School, Chicago (W.-T.H.); the Department of Pathology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas (R.A.S.); the Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University, Palo Alto, Calif. (K.N.); and the Department of Pediatrics, Children's Hospital, Los Angeles (M.B.).

Drs. Shozu and Sebastian contributed equally to the article.



For the record, I do use soap when showering, but I use an all-natural SLS-free soap, and I don't wash my face with it.
I just wash my face with sugar(wet face, lightly exfoliate, rinse) and I use Camellia Seed Oil to moisturize.

 

[Widows_Peak]

This study shows that phytoestrogens REDUCE estradiol.

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/conten ... act/5/1/63

Effects of soya consumption for one month on steroid hormones in premenopausal women: implications for breast cancer risk reduction.

LJ Lu, KE Anderson, JJ Grady and M Nagamani
Department of Preventive Medicine and Community Health, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Telogen Effluvium 77555, USA.

Soybean consumption is associated with reduced rates of breast, prostate, and colon cancer, which is possibly related to the presence of isoflavones that are weakly estrogenic and anticarcinogenic. We examined the effects of soya consumption on circulating steroid hormones in six healthy females 22-29 years of age. Starting within 6 days after the onset of menses, the subjects ingested a 12-oz portion of soymilk with each of three meals daily for 1 month on a metabolic unit. Daily isoflavone intakes were approximately 100 mg of daidzein (mostly as daidzin) and approximately 100 mg of genistein (mostly as genistin). Serum 17 beta-estradiol levels on cycle days 5-7, 12-14, and 20-22 decreased by 31% (P = 0.09), 81% (P = 0.03), and 49% (P = 0.02), respectively, during soya feeding. Decreases persisted for two or three menstrual cycles after withdrawal from soya feeding. The luteal phase progesterone levels decreased by 35% during soya feeding (P = 0.002). Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels decreased progressively during soya feeding by 14-30% (P = 0.03). Menstrual cycle length was 28.3 +/- 1.9 days before soymilk feeding, increased to 31.8 +/- 5.1 days during the month of soymilk feeding (P = 0.06), remained increased at 32.7 +/- 8.4 days (P = 0.11) at one cycle after termination of soymilk feeding, and returned to pre-soya diet levels five to six cycles later. These results suggest that consumption of soya diets containing phytoestrogens may reduce circulating ovarian steroids and adrenal androgens and increase menstrual cycle length. Such effects may account at least in part for the decreased risk of breast cancer that has been associated with legume consumption.

Xenoestrogens are the problem, not phytoestrogens.

http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/FactShe ... trogen.cfm

Dietary phytoestrogens: Phytoestrogens are plant estrogens found in foods like soybeans, tofu, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, and certain spices and herbs. The word "phyto" is from the Greek word for plant. A diet rich in phytoestrogens has been proposed as a way to decrease breast cancer risk. Some, but not all studies show that women with a diet high in phytoestrogens, including vegans (who eat no animal foods) and women who eat diets high in soy products, have lower rates of breast cancer.

Why is this so? Most phytoestrogens are not stored in the body, but are quickly broken down. Phytoestrogens are weak estrogens, and may prevent stronger human estrogens from binding to the estrogen receptor. If the weaker estrogens bind to the receptor instead of the stronger ones, there may be less breast cell division. Women with diets rich in phytoestrogens also excrete more estrogens into their urine, and have lower blood estrogen levels. Some studies have shown that women with a diet rich in phytoestrogens have longer, and hence fewer, menstrual cycles. All of these factors may contribute to reduced breast cancer risk.

Is there a relationship between breast cancer risk, estrogen, and environmental chemicals?

Since about half of breast cancer cases cannot be explained by known risk factors, some researchers suspect that chemicals in the environment may play a role in breast cancer risk. Though we still have many unanswered questions about whether environmental factors affect breast cancer risk, researchers have developed hypotheses about how environmental chemicals may affect breast cancer risk. These include chemicals that either mimic the effect of estrogen or that affect the levels of estrogen in the body indirectly by disrupting the way estrogen is produced or used in the body.

What are environmental estrogens?

Environmental estrogens are naturally occurring (e.g. phytoestrogens in plants) or synthetic chemicals that can act like human estrogen made by the ovary. Another term for an environmental estrogen is xenoestrogen (xeno is Greek for the word foreign). The greatest concern is over synthetic xenoestrogens that are not easily broken down, and that can accumulate and be stored in the body's fat cells, including breast fat. The strength of these xenoestrogens varies; some are ten times weaker than human estrogen, while others are a million times weaker. Xenoestrogens can mimic the effect of human estrogen because they have a chemical structure (like a "key" ) that allows them to fit into the estrogen receptor the way a key fits into a lock. Some xenoestrogens increase cell division and thus may contribute to breast cancer risk.

Many different chemicals have been identified as being weak environmental estrogens. These include several pesticides (including some forms of DDT), the food preservatives BHT and BHA, the industrial detergent by-products nonyl- and octaphenol, compounds used in plastics including bisphenol A and some phthalates, the food dye Red #3, and the solvent formaldehyde which was used in carpet manufacturing, and is still used in making plywood.

 

[michael barry]

Widows,

Interesting stuff. Ive thought for a while that the modern fast food diet is pretty much a slow decades-long poison.

Ive wondered for a while if some scientist could seperate twins and feed one junk food and let him lounge as he pleases and feed the other a diet of fruits, veggies, and lean cuts of meats and have him swim perhapse 20 minutes a day. I just wonder how different they would look at 25.

 

[buzzmenot]

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you, Mr. Barry.

From the research I've done, phytoestrogens that are ingested work like a lock in a key.
They block the body's intake of estrogens and when they reach androgen receptor sites, they signal the body that it doesn't need to convert testosterone to estradiol.

http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/Aug04.pdf
.

skaff posted a study on estrogens and dht on skin thickness in the sideeffects forum, a small part of it talks about hair shafts:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... c&start=10

======
In agreement with this data, E2 was found to be highly effective to block hair growth in female mice (Chanda et al, 2000). In the humans, E2 is found to be locally produced by the hair follicles (Schweikert et al, 1975). Moreover, a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair was observed in pregnant women, an effect possibly related to the high levels of circulating estrogens (Montagna and Parakkal, 1974). It is recognized, however, that androgens are the main regulators of hair follicle growth (Randall, 1994). This data thus support the hypothesis that both androgens and estrogens are involved in the control of hair growth.
======

I'm confused now, does this mean estrogens are bad for hair? I've been plucking my unibro before propecia. It used to take 3 weeks to grow back, but now on propecia it takes like 2 months.

Can this study suggest anything about telogen phase length and estrogens in male pattern baldness scalp areas?

 

[CCS]

I'm on dutasteride and shave my eyebrows into shape, and they grow out very fast.

Even if estrogen is bad for hairs, the question we need answered is whether it is worse or better than testosterone. I'm also currious just how bad testosterone is when someone is taking dutasteride and can't make DHT.

I'll hold off on adding that estiol 17 whatever it is called to my spironolactone for now. As for pregnant women, are we talking about scalp hair, and do body hairs respond differently to estrogen than to DHT? I'm not convinced there have been good enough studies to answer these questions. As for pregnant women, do their testosterone levels stay the same? I heard women on their period have higher testosterone levels. We can't know what is going on with one variable until we hold the others constant, and even then we don't know if there are optimal levels.

 

[Bryan]

As for pregnant women, are we talking about scalp hair, and do body hairs respond differently to estrogen than to DHT?

Of course. It's very likely true that body hair follicles and scalp hair follicles respond in opposite fashion to the sex hormones, and that androgens and estrogens affect those follicles in opposite fashion. Almost all of the available evidence points to that.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

After reading all this, I'm wondering if I should make my own soap with oleic acid and lye or mixed vegetable oil and lye and water, or KOH, since those would not be bad in small amounts if absorbed. But then I remembered that Bryan said you can get all the fatty acids you need through your skin if you put them there. So I don't want to give my body the wrong fatty acid ratios. Of course if I wash really fast, rinsing as I go, I'm sure it would not be an issue.

Also, I must point out that nizoral and NANO are very helpful. So maybe you should put some oleic acid or emu oil in them to reduce surfacting.

FDA said SLS and other stuff are considered safe. Most shampoos have them in them. I'm not sure what you can do about that if they were bad. Also, people have been balding and graying for thousands of years before soap came out. As for the dangers, it really depends what the concentration is. We can detect really small concentrations. I'm sure your body has its own emulsifiers which do nothing.

 

[Widows_Peak]

FDA said SLS and other stuff are considered safe. Most shampoos have them in them. I'm not sure what you can do about that if they were bad.

The FDA also told us that Fen Fen, Thalidamide and Vioxx were safe and they weren't.
What you can do is stop shampooing and/or clean your hair with Apple Cider Vinegar, which has procyanidins (unlike shamppoo, which only has detergents, irritants and poisons, in them).

Also, people have been balding and graying for thousands of years before soap came out. As for the dangers, it really depends what the concentration is. We can detect really small concentrations. I'm sure your body has its own emulsifiers which do nothing.

Actually, we've had soap for almost 5,000 years and we've been putting in our hair for that long, to our own detriment.

http://www.cleaning101.com/cleaning/history/

A soap-like material found in clay cylinders during the excavation of ancient Babylon is evidence that soapmaking was known as early as 2800 B.C. Inscriptions on the cylinders say that fats were boiled with ashes, which is a method of making soap, but do not refer to the purpose of the "soap." Such materials were later used as hair styling aids.

Records show that ancient Egyptians bathed regularly. The Ebers Papyrus, a medical document from about 1500 B.C., describes combining animal and vegetable oils with alkaline salts to form a soap-like material used for treating skin diseases, as well as for washing

At about the same time, Moses gave the Israelites detailed laws governing personal cleanliness. He also related cleanliness to health and religious purification. Biblical accounts suggest that the Israelites knew that mixing ashes and oil produced a kind of hair gel.

 

[Bryan]

Actually, we've had soap for almost 5,000 years and we've been putting in our hair for that long, to our own detriment.

Oh, so it's not just SLS and other detergents, but even just plain SOAP which causes balding??

Bryan

 

[CCS]

soap is water, sodium or potassium, and de-protonated fatty acids. Sounds harmless to me, though I wonder if with the water gone the sodium and fatty acid would form a scum. I know soaps form scum, which is why I wash my body with baby shampoo, which happens to be very high in SLS. I think the vinegar would be irratating. Hair tomorrow puts it on his head (with pepper) and it makes is whole scalp red. I will find out if oil is soluble in vinegar, though I'd rather old baldy or hair tomorrow tell me. Vinegar is 5% acedic acid, right? I'm sure you'd stink of vinegar afterwards, though some soaps really stink of chemicals too. I guess I could add a few drops of tea tree oil and it would cover it.

 

[CCS]

even if i use vinegar on my body, I'm not giving up my nizoral or NANO.

I wonder how acidic vinegar is, and if it is a penetration enhancer, and not too irritating for a topical. Maybe I can use it in place of ethanol. But since it is an acid, I'm sure it might be reactive with anything that is a base, unlike water, ethanol, and pg.