DHT function(s) in the body.

[amsch]

Most of them.

Can you sum up what they show us in terms of topical effectiveness and side effects, especiall compared to finasteride?

A daily "micro-dose" of something like around 0.03 mg or so ought to do the trick. The only problem with doing that, of course, is that there'd be a lot of uncertaintly about the exact effect it was having on you. You'd want to get blood tests to see if such a tiny dose was too little or too much for yor desired effect. Even then, though, there'd still be a lot of uncertainty.

According to this graphic
http://hair-restoration-info.com/groupe ... %2FDHT.GIF
Wouldn't 0,15 do the trick as well, EOD? (or every 2nd day).

Take an aromatse inhibitor like Arimidex.

hm, along with finasteride? Is that safe, long-term?

 

[Bryan]

From what I have read from the web site mentioned above, D.H.T. is the main androgen in every tissue except the muscle, in which testosterone in the main androgen...pretty interesting!

Yes indeed!

BTW, misterE, a year or two ago I posted the results of a large, controlled study in which an aromatase inhibitor was given to a large number of men to see if would have a beneficial effect on their BPH. I included the data on how much their estrogen levels declined, and how much their testosterone and DHT levels increased. I'm going to search for that old post and re-post it here, just so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[yvakin]

If i take Tamoxifen to fight guno, my hairloss will speed up?
Thats sucks, i was going to order some Tamoxifen :badmood:

 

[Bryan]

Can you sum up what they show us in terms of topical effectiveness and side effects, especiall compared to finasteride?

The RU studies generally describe its effects using expressions such as "castration-like". I don't recall any of them noting any incidence of side effects. NOW you can see why I like RU58841 so much!

According to this graphic
http://hair-restoration-info.com/groupe ... %2FDHT.GIF
Wouldn't 0,15 do the trick as well, EOD? (or every 2nd day).

My god, that's the same graph that _I_ scanned and posted several years ago! That thing has gotten a LOT of play over the years, and now it's on some hair restoration Web site!

You have to keep in mind that that graph shows the effect of various SINGLE doses of finasteride, so it can be rather misleading. I've also posted a graph of the effect of various DAILY tiny doses of finasteride, and here it is:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/fin_micro_doses.htm

As you can see (graph A is the one you should concentrate on), even a daily dose of 0.04 mg lowered blood levels of DHT after 14 days to nearly as low as a full 1 mg dose. But again I emphasize that when you're using these TINY doses, you're on the hairy edge of what's accurate and predictable for any specific individual. You'd need regular blood tests, just to make sure that it's having the desired effect you want.

Take an aromatse inhibitor like Arimidex.

hm, along with finasteride? Is that safe, long-term?

Not necessarily! You'd only want to use them together with EXTREME caution, and under a doctor's supervision. Haven't you seen that study where finasteride and Arimidex were given to dogs, and in large doses? The dogs had ASTONISHING increases in testosterone production, as a result. I actually scanned that study in the past, but I don't have the links right at hand. I'll have to look for them.

 

[Bryan]

If i take Tamoxifen to fight guno, my hairloss will speed up?
Thats sucks, i was going to order some Tamoxifen :badmood:

Theoretically it might hurt your hair SLIGHTLY, but I wouldn't worry about that too much. I'd worry a lot more about the gyno, so go ahead and use the Tamoxifen.

 

[Bryan]

Ok, here's my post from nearly two years ago, in reply to yet another person who tried to claim that DHTgoes DOWN when you reduce estrogen (I'm snipping-out some of the more heated parts, leaving only the material about the study):

This is the study "Estrogen Reduction by Aromatase Inhibition for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia: Results of a Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Clinical Trial Using Two Doses of the Aromatase-Inhibitor Atamestane", Radlmaier et al, The Prostate 29:199-208 (1996).

The use of the aromatase inhibitor atamestane caused a reflexive INCREASE in serum androgens, including DHT! Here are the approximate numbers involved (I'm reading this off a graph they provide): after 48 weeks of therapy, the smaller dose of the drug raised serum DHT by about 23%, and the larger dose raised serum DHT by about 35%.

There was no question at all in my mind that reducing estrogen causes an increase in testosterone, because it's been thoroughly documented that estrogen plays an important role in the regulation of androgen synthesis; the only thing I wasn't completely sure about was whether or not it also raises DHT, although I felt it was highly likely that it would. It was just a little while ago that I remembered that they had probably tested for that in this study, and sure enough I was correct in my assumption...

 

[OverMachoGrande]

How do you graph or measure the amount of effect D.H.T. has on the hair follicle?

 

[amsch]

Bryan, I just can't believe that the topical effects were "castration-like", without any systemic effects! Were blood tests done in the studies? Which dosage was used? AND WHY DOESN'T ANYONE PRODUCE IT if it's so damn effective! :woot:

btw, the graph of the daily usages is slightly confusing... does this mean even the placebo group had lower dht levels? And 0,04mg daily almost had the same effect as 1mg? Funny that they didn't measure estrogen at all.

 

[Fanjeera]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropenis -- DHT is needed for the penis development. If there's a defect in DHT synthesis, a micropenis will be born. To make the body synthesize less DHT -- it's what's finasteride is all about, right?

 

[amsch]

Bryan, I just can't believe that the topical effects were "castration-like", without any systemic effects! Were blood tests done in the studies? Which dosage was used? AND WHY DOESN'T ANYONE PRODUCE IT if it's so damn effective! :woot:

btw, the graph of the daily usages is slightly confusing... does this mean even the placebo group had lower dht levels? And 0,04mg daily almost had the same effect as 1mg? Funny that they didn't measure estrogen at all.

bryan, i'll hope you can help me out!

 

[Fanjeera]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropenis -- DHT is needed for the penis development. If there's a defect in DHT synthesis, a micropenis will be born. To make the body synthesize less DHT -- it's what's finasteride is all about, right?

Bryan, will I get a micropenis? Thank you!

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, I just can't believe that the topical effects were "castration-like", without any systemic effects! Were blood tests done in the studies?

They probably were, in at least some of them (like in the stumptailed macaque studies). In other ones, like in hamster flank-organ tests, they probably just verified that there was no effect on the opposite, un-treated flank organ, indicating no systemic effect.

Which dosage was used?

In one of the stumptailed macaque studies, they applied 1/2 mL of RU58841 solutions ranging from 0.5% to 5% in concentration.

AND WHY DOESN'T ANYONE PRODUCE IT if it's so damn effective! :woot:

Don't know for sure, but I suspect that the stuff is fairly expensive to produce, nobody wants to spend hundreds of millions of $$$ to get FDA approval, and nobody wants to invest in another messy topical when Rogaine was such a big disappointment in sales for Upjohn.

btw, the graph of the daily usages is slightly confusing... does this mean even the placebo group had lower dht levels?

Nah. You'll see some normal fluctuations of such a hormone which is present in such tiny amounts.

And 0,04mg daily almost had the same effect as 1mg? Funny that they didn't measure estrogen at all.

They may have done that. Most finasteride studies say that changes in estrogen were insignificant.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, will I get a micropenis? Thank you!

If you get the drug while you're a developing fetus, yes you will. But if you start taking it after puberty, you're probably safe!

 

[Bryan]

Castration-like effects with topical RU58841:

Skin Pharmacol. 1997;10(5-6):288-97.
"Effects of topical antiandrogen and 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors on sebaceous glands in male fuzzy rats." Ye F, Imamura K, Imanishi N, Rhodes L, Uno H.
Wisconsin Regional Primate Research Center, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53715-1299, USA.

The fuzzy rat, a genetic mutant between hairless and hairy albino rats, expresses androgen-dependent hypersecretion of sebum and hyperplastic sebaceous glands. Using this model for human acne, we examined the effects of inhibitors of human steroid 5 alpha-reductase isozymes, type I (MK 386) and type II (finasteride), and an androgen receptor blocker (RU58841) on regression of glandular and ductal hyperplasia. The above three agents, 1% weight volume, were dissolved into the vehicle (propylene glycol, alcohol and water) and applied on the backs of peripubertal male rats for 2 months. Control and castrate groups received vehicle alone. At 8 weeks, we examined the size the sebaceous glandular lobules and ducts in split epidermal preparations as well as in frozen sections of skin stained with osmium-potassium dichromate solution. The number of bromodeoxyuridine (BrdU)-positive cells was counted in the glandular lobes in split-skin tissues stained with BrdU immunochemistry. The results revealed that the sizes of both lobes and ducts in castrates were 40-60% smaller than in controls. RU58841 induced glandular and ductal regression equivalent to that in castrates. Finasteride induced a moderate degree of lobular and ductal reduction, whereas MK386 caused only ductal regression. Reduction of BrdU-positive cells in the sebaceous lobes was found in the skin treated with finasteride and RU58841. Serum concentrations of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone showed no significant changes in all drug-treated rats. The weight of the prostatic lobes was reduced significantly in rats treated with finasteride but not by the other two agents. RU58841 effectively counteracted endogenous androgens resulting in a suppression of growth of the sebaceous glands but not the prostate. This rodent model for androgen-dependent hyperplasia of the sebaceous glands is useful for the study of many pharmacological aspects comprising the rate of percutaneous absorption, stability and affinity to target organs of the testing compounds, and selection of adequate vehicle for topical application.

 

[amsch]

Thanks Bryan!
I'll get my next bloodwork tomorrow, I'll hope you'll chip in and help me out!

 

[Fanjeera]

Bryan, will I get a micropenis? Thank you!

If you get the drug while you're a developing fetus, yes you will. But if you start taking it after puberty, you're probably safe!

Thanks! How do I know, if puberty has ended? I'm 18.

 

[Bryan]

Thanks! How do I know, if puberty has ended? I'm 18.

I was mostly joking when I made that comment about "after puberty". I've always thought that the dire warnings you see about not taking finasteride at too young an age (like before 18 or so) are overblown. I personally think you're fine to take it, but do check with your doctor first.

 

[optimus prime]

Thanks! How do I know, if puberty has ended? I'm 18.

I was mostly joking when I made that comment about "after puberty". I've always thought that the dire warnings you see about not taking finasteride at too young an age (like before 18 or so) are overblown. I personally think you're fine to take it, but do check with your doctor first.

I take finasteride and in my personal opinion I would not take it any younger than 20. Personal opinion, not doctor/medical opinion.

 

[ali777]

Bryan, will I get a micropenis? Thank you!

If you get the drug while you're a developing fetus, yes you will. But if you start taking it after puberty, you're probably safe!

I've read the warnings that pregnant women should avoid finasteride, etc. But, has that really been proven to be the case? I know ethically we can't test on humans, so how do we know that reduced DHT, which is not the same as no DHT, will have a major effect in the developing fetus???

I take finasteride and in my personal opinion I would not take it any younger than 20. Personal opinion, not doctor/medical opinion.

I'm 31 and I still wouldn't touch it... I've tried it and I know what it does to my body.

 

[ali777]

Bryan, will I get a micropenis? Thank you!

Dude, how are you going to get a micropenis? Finastride is not going to shrink your penis, at worst it stuns the growth you are supposed to get in your late teens.

You are 18, and unless you are a very late bloomer, most of your puberty is already gone. If you are unfortunate enough to have a micropenis at 18, maybe you should see a specialist while you still have a bit of your puberty to go.

If your penis is bigger than 10cm, you don't have a micropenis and no doctor would deal with you. They are just going to tell you that it comes in all different shapes and sizes and that you should get over it!!!!