Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Marky]

Exactly. I’m sure this whole thing is psychological and can be stopped, slowed down or... not, depending on your mental condition. Everything else is just messing with hormones, if you give a non balding Norwood 1 estrogen and avodart he’s still gonna get thicker hair.

Maybe in some cases it's spiritual others not. Just as some may need an exorcism from demonic possession while most might just have a chemical imbalances.

 

[itchymadscalp]

@Marky : you're joking ? where are you from ?

 

[Marky]

@Marky : you're joking ? where are you from ?

"Allam, who serves as an exorcist for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Charleston, is fielding more requests each year from persons asking the church to help free them from demonic possession. When Allam arrived to South Carolina in 2013, he received 10 requests for exorcisms. By 2018, that jumped to about 45."

"Most people who seek exorcisms, though, aren’t controlled by demons, priests said. A person is only possessed when they exhibit physical strength beyond their capacity, or reveal secrets of the exorcist’s past. Demons also refuse to say the name “Jesus,” Allam said. The exorcist added that in his five years as the exorcist, he has only had one case where a person was actually possessed by an evil spirit. The woman, shouting slurs, had to be physically restrained.

Most times, clients have physical, psychological or mental issues that they think are caused by devils. In those cases, priests pray with the person, provide spiritual support and point them to counselors."

https://www.postandcourier.com/feat...cle_bacbcdfa-1420-11e9-bd46-ffdf067bb575.html

Never underestimate the supernatural.

 

[itchymadscalp]

@Marky : what you're saying (writing) doesn't prove your theory is true ...
I want to believe in supernatural, because it's fun. But I still don't get your point. We're losing our hair because we are possessed by demons ?

Sorry but it sounds ridiculous, and if it's true, why balding-demons are afraid of finasteride/minoxidil/estradiol/... ?

 

[Marky]

@Marky : what you're saying (writing) doesn't prove your theory is true ...
I want to believe in supernatural, because it's fun. But I still don't get your point. We're losing our hair because we are possessed by demons ?

Sorry but it sounds ridiculous, and if it's true, why balding-demons are afraid of finasteride/minoxidil/estradiol/... ?

I think true possession (which is rare) can cause many ailments, maybe hair loss is one. Did you read to the bottom:

Not everyone who thinks they are possessed is,” Babick said, “and sometimes medical science relative to mental health is not as equipped to treat every condition as it thinks.”

Sorry but it sounds ridiculous, and if it's true, why balding-demons are afraid of finasteride/minoxidil/estradiol/... ? - Works for everyone?

If all else fails, maybe try this prayer when you're lathering up in the shower:

From the crown of my head to the soul of my feet
In the name of Jesus Christ I command every hair follicle on my head
to produce healthy unhindered hair as was designed by God
So that I may have a full head of hair all the days of my life for the
greater glory of God. I am blessed and not cursed, and any blessing by
God is stronger than any curse.

Doesn't hurt to add to the regimen.

 

[itchymadscalp]

I hope this it a joke...

 

[LEXUS]

perhaps and should add this prayer. but there are bald priests in the church too, do they sin a lot?
monkeys males, too, grow bald. so probably conceived by nature or God.

 

[Marky]

I hope this it a joke...

Just say it like you mean it, work the fingers firmly into scalp while lathering up shampoo.

 

[Marky]

perhaps and should add this prayer. but there are bald priests in the church too, do they sin a lot?
monkeys males, too, grow bald. so probably conceived by nature or God.

Maybe they should say the prayer.

 

[bridgeburn]

Bridgeburn, how is your liver function, all good there

I haven't had tests so I can't really say. I feel fine though.. but I think my alcohol tolerance is lower

 

[fuDHTck]

@bridgeburn what's your view on topical estrogen at a not so high dose? Do you still think it would do something good? Even if small?

I am also on oral AA, just not confident risking it with bigger doses of estrogen even if topical...

Also second question: do you still see some shedding from time to time? Or is it 0 now?

 

[LEXUS]

@bridgeburn what's your view on topical estrogen at a not so high dose? Do you still think it would do something good? Even if small?

I am also on oral AA, just not confident risking it with bigger doses of estrogen even if topical...

Also second question: do you still see some shedding from time to time? Or is it 0 now?

It has helped me. and in Europe topical 17 a- estradiol is approved to treat women with hairloss.

"Hair counts and diameter from baseline to 4 and 8 months after treatment increased in treated patients and these changes were statistically significant (p<0.0001). 17α-estradiol (Ell-Cranell® alpha 0.025%) solution showed significant improvement by subjective self-assessment and by investigator photographic assessment. "

Whatevr, also improved with topical Albicort-F

Of course this depends how much gets absorbed. male skin is thicker than female skin and bald scalp has fibrosis, increased elastin fibers

but raising estradiol levels has multiple benefit:
It raises SHBG, which makes DHT less bioavailable in the blood. It reduces testosterone production.
and it inhibits to some extant 5ar in the scalp:

(100 nM 17alpha-E: 20%; 100 nM 17beta-E: 60%)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723

but it doesn't inhibit it directly like finasteride or dutasteride does, they think some indirect effects cause this..

If you want to inhibit maximum 5AR without f*****g the liver then we need to combine dutasteride, estradiol and progesterone. Then there are 3 different mechanisms of methods of 5ar reduction. dutasteride alone has a dose dependence curve, 2.5mg to 5mg won't inhibit 5ar 100%. it gets very close but it plateaus out at after 2.5mg, there is no difference betwen 2.5mg and 5mg dutasteride. also, I hear so many people who use high dose dutasteride and it works but years later stops working.

that's exactly what i did. Now on estradiol 2 mg, progesterone 2 mg, DUTA 2 mg. but I have synthetic progesterone (didrogesterone), it should work the same way. Do you also take progesterone?

 

[Obsessive]

"It has helped me. and in Europe topical 17 a- estradiol is approved to treat women with hairloss.

"Hair counts and diameter from baseline to 4 and 8 months after treatment increased in treated patients and these changes were statistically significant (p<0.0001). 17α-estradiol (Ell-Cranell® alpha 0.025%) solution showed significant improvement by subjective self-assessment and by investigator photographic assessment. "

I thought the general consensus around here is that beta-estradiol is superior to alpha. Maybe it doesn't matter that much as to which isomer is used??

 

[bridgeburn]

@bridgeburn what's your view on topical estrogen at a not so high dose? Do you still think it would do something good? Even if small?

I am also on oral AA, just not confident risking it with bigger doses of estrogen even if topical...

Also second question: do you still see some shedding from time to time? Or is it 0 now?

I know you asked this earlier, I was going to get to it but since I wasn't online here for awhile and then came here again, Ive needed time to respond to all the replies and PMs and the older ones get priority.

Certainly, i don't think it will hurt. There are studies showing benefit with topical estrogen in women however the article posted earlier said this:

" Due to unwanted side effects like gynecomastia, E2 should not be used in men because very high topical doses seem to be required to obtain measurable hair growth effects "

If you think about it though, women rarely have slick bald temples even if they are thinning, that's less fibrosis. as well as less testosterone to antagonize it.

Also, Look at this for example:

"Although minoxidil is poorly absorbed through the skin, systemic doses in the range of 2.4 to 5.4 mg/day can be anticipated if application is made to entire scalp." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3977334/

there is a reason min solution is kept at 5%. probably for a decent amount to get through. If you were to drink it, a one month bottle would last 9 to 10 months. the estrogel though is typically .06%

I ver much think though it becomes more helpful when combined with a strong AA. This guy also had used estrogel:



he used pill and gel combined along with high amounts of cyproterone in his regimen.

and we all know that I used it topically, at first with a small amount. but I was on higher AA doses back then and used less systematic estradiol, only rubbing it on my scalp. but even a small amount gave me significant gyno, and it seemed more sides was also more results.

Here are my thoughts on this: Estradiol is beneficial both directly and indirectly.. the direct benefit is the change in gene expression, it upregulates many genes which are downregulated in balding scalp.. So, hormones are small molecules. It has to go into your cells,.. Cell by Cell. which makes sense to me that we need a significant amount. because we have so many cells, and cells themselves multiply.. If you take 1 dose of estradiol. it will affect some cells, but soon the "male cells" will still be continuing division and outnumber the changed cells.. You have to somewhat Outrun the male programmed hair cell division. Like walking up a downward moving escalator. I'm sure there are different tolerances for this.. Some people start balding at puberty, and some suddenly get a receeding hairline at 35 years old.. I don't believe that the 35 year old suddenly got more DHT, I believe that hormones are continuous and gradual and it was slowly changing gene expression since he hit puberty but it didn't show up until it hit a certain threshold which took until 35 for that individual.
Minoxidil for example has made my arms overall more hairy than before HRT but recently and pretty suddenly a big patch has been forming on my right hand, and only my right one. the hormones after about a year and a half probably caught up.

So, the antiandrogens can help with this. blocking further androgen changes so there's less to outrun, less speed to the escalator. although we must also catch up, years of previous exposure which makes the epigenetic locks quite stubborn.

Further more, People likely try to use the estrogel topically to limit the systematic sides. But those systematic levels do alot of good things too, for hair.. Estradiol lowers T production, reduces 5alpha reductase, to a much less than finasteride but still it inhibits it to an extant, increases SHBG (which is lower in bald men), reduces PGD2.

Also second question: do you still see some shedding from time to time? Or is it 0 now?

It is normal, according to google searches, to lose between 50-100 hairs everyday. I have a periods where I lose probably about that normal amount everyday for a for months, and then a few months that I hardly shed very much.. strangely my body hair is totally synchronized. Every few months or so, hundreds of body hairs fall out easily for a few weeks. followed by a few months of re thickening and growing longer. then it repeats.

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

I continue to loose ground. Very soon I will develope a bald spot on my vertex. Even spironolactone 400 mg is not working.

 

[Marky]

that's exactly what i did. Now on estradiol 2 mg, progesterone 2 mg, DUTA 2 mg. but I have synthetic progesterone (didrogesterone), it should work the same way. Do you also take progesterone?

Are you getting gyno at that dose?

 

[LEXUS]

Are you getting gyno at that dose?

not. If I see gyno, I will stop taking it. although I remember one day I took 5 mg of estradiol in for the experiment and then my chest ached and I got scared. But it was only then. gyno is very individual. Someone from 0.1 mg finasteride can be.

 

[Obsessive]

I just buzzed my head and aplied my first dose 1.25g estrogel, even slapped some on my face and took 25mg cypro. Feeling really happy about myself, finally doing something about my hairloss. I just went from zero regime to this, and soon I will get lomixidil. There is nothing I want more then to get my hair back if that means gyno then so be it, as long as I can hide it with clothes I'm fine. Bridgeburn your hair looks great man, what's your hair care regime, do you do the curly girl method?

I put Estrogel all over forehead and hairline/temples at the moment. @Letsdoit You still applying E to your face? Anyone else putting Estrogel on face for extra collagen production / anti-aging effects?

 

[bridgeburn]

it has a long half life so it should still be effective although It seems like jumping up to dutasteride wouldn't have any expected benefits for hair but it does hold some potential.

I would say it would have some expected benefits since its more 5ar inhibition.

It doesn't make sense that inhbiting DHT would regrow hair despite some people regrowing loads of hair on 5AR inhibitors. I'm under the assumption that it's actually more of an accident as Inhibiting DHT synthesis may alter the estrogen to androgen ratio by shifting metabolism of testosterone to estradiol. This would explain why some people only see a slowdown of hairloss and others have major regrowth.

Yes, I think that too. because DHT antagonizes estrogen receptors and aromatase exists in our follicles.

I'm thinking in this case that if you actually want to see an increase in hairgrowth it would be best to just directly take estradiol instead of hoping for a reaction that isn't guaranteed by jumping to dutasteride. You'd still need to inhibit DHT to stop the inflammatory response but it's less of a gamble. I do know studies on dutasteride versus finasteride show that dutasteride daily is roughly 50% more effective than finasteride for regrowth on average. I also think dutasteride has a positive effect on skin and sebum production? So it might even be worth stepping up for the other benefits alone. The downsides aside from cost honestly don't seem that bad from what I've seen.

depends how much you estradiol you take, but the best would be to take both. If you have alot of 5ar and a little testosterone, you can still have high DHT in the scalp. You'd need to reduce testosterone to extreme levels get the same amount of intercellular DHT reduction as a little dutasteride. But estradiol can absolutely do that if levels are consistent enough throughout the day. yes dutasteride improves skin and sebumn but the same way it improves hair, If you have acne that's likely a bad sign of skin 5ar. chemical castration cleared me of acne

I haven't researched into estradiol that much but I wonder what would happen if you used estradiol/trans drugs to actually regrow your hair then taper off them with the end result being just using 5AR inhibitors to stop the inflammatory response.

I haven't tried it. not too many have. There's only one I know of who has tried, Antydhtor. last I heard only takes fina and duta. He said he lost a few "stupid hairs" but so far his hair amazing regrowth is mostly the same, I have heard.

I also know you used minoxidil at one stage, would you call that a necessity? Perhaps I'm being stubborn but I'm not currently wanting to use it as I know what I'm like and I don't think I'd be able to apply it daily since it'd lowkey drive me crazy among other issues I have with it.

It is possible to regrow hair without minoxidil:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/you-might-be-interested-in-reading-this.110443/

I think most do need the extra boost of it though for maximum results.

I'm definitely regrowing my hair currently but it's a very slow process and I'm coming from a NW4.5 so I'm wanting to speed things along since I'm 21 and only wasting more of my youth waiting.

yes, I know how that feels. It's slow for me too, but even though slow at least it continues going the right direction.

I'm also realizing I'm perpetually hating my hair and it's always in this state of it's almost good enough but not quite until I look back on old photos and see how severely fucked it used to be.

Hahaha, I sometimes do that too. I'd get down that my hair though much better isn't too great still and moving too slow, until I look at old pics and am shocked cause it was really really bad, I can hardly believe that was me.

Currently I'm 8 months microneedling and 4 months finasteride so perhaps I'm being impatient.

If you went a little more harder with your regimen, it'd probably speed things up better for you cause you are younger than me by 7 years. they say fina and dutas can take like a year to work.

I attached a picture of some of my vellus hairs, they are going terminal just very slowly. I have a feeling if I just add dutasteride I might not see much of an improvement and I'd just be wasting money and along with potential sides. On the other hand I feel like it could be the final thing I need for a dramatic recovery. The realistic thing to do would be just add minoxidil, but I'd feel more comfortable adding in weekly 0.5mg dutasteride than minoxidil as silly as it sounds.

Save those hairs man!. mine looked kinda like that at first, and very slowly turned into a hairline. You'll have a nice hairline if you can get them all terminal.. I think honestly 1 time a week dutasteride is a good idea. a study showed that 1x week dutasteride with finasteride is better than finasteride alone. And it'll be less expensive than dutasteride everyday.. theres several things you could consider adding (they have some side effect risks however): topical hydrocortisone, minoxidil, estrogel, progesterone cream. but I think you should try the dutasteride first.

 

[Ziggyz123]

For those of you in this thread on Cyproterone, I can’t use spironolactone so I’m about to order Cypro. I can’t find any hair regrowth or maintenance type threads about Cypro anywhere.. are you guys doing alright on it? 9 days off spironolactone and my sex drive is insane again and I’m still on 2.5mg dutasteride. I’m only looking to use 12.5 like every 3 days. Don’t wanna totally kill my dick lol.