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1 pump of estrogel spits out 1.25grams of gel that contains .75mg of E2
Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.
- Thread starter bridgeburn
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Thanks!
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Nobody knows and here's why. Estrogel is absorbed much more readily through genital skin of both sexes. So it should provide say five times the estrogen levels that usage on the wrists might. In terms of scalp application, would using six times as much of Biestro be equal to Estrogel? Probably not but they do have an Estradiol OTC version.
Do both parenteral and systemic estrogen regrow hair? Yes but estrogel on the scalp might fight spontaneous DHT synthesis and reduce inflammation in the longer-term. Also, going with something weaker but using it longer might be just as good and avoid sheds. I have never bothered to measure gel or cream dosages. Also for those seeking something more radical, there is Premarin cream available offshore and via prescription that lacks the negative effects most likely on the liver. Ethinyl estradiol and Conjugated Equine Estrogens might work better for both breast development and hair regrowth.
Bridge was adamant about using the mirror method which I also used mostly. But for guys like him and MtF's, you probably can slather away. I am still trying to determine risk factors for cis-females as MtF's rarely get either prostate or breast cancer so this is supremely healthy for MtF's but it might increase breast cancer risk for cis-gals.
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One ruler space is the same with the metal tube more commonly available outside the U.S.
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All the various pharmaceutical forms of E2 (oral, gel, patch) seem to have different absorption rates.
For example, a 1mg Oral E2 tablet would get absorbed similarly to 2 pumps (1.5mg) of Estrogel.
There are better charts to show this but there's a decent equivalency chart here:
HRT - Ingredients, brands and strengths available | Newson Health
Demystify HRT by learning all about the different types available, the ingredients they contain, as well as the brand names and doses available.
www.menopausedoctor.co.uk
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Bridgeburn: "I tried dermarolling, lithium chloride, sunlight exposure, castor oil with dmso, stemoxydine, sulfasalazine, miconazole, ...
I spent maybe hundreds of dollars on these and many supplements. also trying Evening primrose oil since i found studies showing omega fatty acids reduce 5ar, vitamin E since there was a study showing reduced pgd2 with the succinate form,... also used tretinoin, sulforaphane, rosemary, Melatonin, caffeine, zinc, green apple peel extract, biotin, taurine, drinking a spoonful of tabasco sauce everyday(yes, I'm serious), soy isoflavones... not sure if i can even remember everything i tried at some point, I even had a schedule to only ejaculate every 6 days, Lol."
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Anyone tried this?:
www.prepareyourhair.com
How Effective Is Stemoxydine For Hair Loss?
Stemoxydine is a P4H inhibitor that targets the... was shown to reduce the kenogen phase, and resulted in thicker, denser hair. Learn everything you need to know about stemoxydine for hair loss.
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I am going through this whole thread and I will attempt to cut and past Bridge's changes in protocol and stated protocols and those of anyone else who had success. There are tons of pics but you guys know how to look at them if you want.
Finally i gave up on my hope to discover some kinda uncommon hair secret and went with the more established Antiandrogen route. Eventually I learned that extreme regimens might regrow hair. AntyDHTor was a big inspiration. I wanted REAL results, not looking closely in the mirror and getting excited if I think I might see 2 vellus hairs that weren't there before.
I started off really cautious because I was nervous. scared of the effects on the liver from Cypro and worried about growing boobs on Estrogen. starting on June 2nd I took Cyproterone Acetate 50mg and .75mg topical estradiol 2 times a week. I took this about 2 x a week until July 5th. and I started taking dutasteride everyday on June 29th. I may have noticed some fuzzies on my temples during June. but they didn't grow at all or develope. They were very very tiny.
During June, Im not sure if can count as part of my total treatment time. I still had a strong libido, i think it might have been a little bit lower??, but Im not sure. maybe just nocebo.
Anyway, I felt more comfortable and started taking 50mg cypro Everyday on July 5th. Also started minoxidil 2x a day every other day, and estrogel Every Other day. My temples started filling with more fuzzy hairs. I could clearly see them in certain light but when i tried to take pictures even in the same light, my camera couldn't see them. I tried many times. The fuzzies become slowly easier to see, finally about 3 weeks later I was able to capture my fuzzy vellus on camera.
At that point my results were not yet cosmetically significant.. could be a coincidence but it did seem that right after I switched to using estrogel everyday, results jumped up.
Starting On August 4th I took 100mg of Cypro Everyday for 3 weeks. and then went back down to 50mg. Also sometime in August I switched to using 1.5mg topical Estradiol.
and when i made more extreme switches later results jumped up again.
Ok, I know people will criticize and think I'm crazy. As Anty used to say, " I have the sides in my ***".
Ask me anything you want about the other effects of this regimen.
I'm not reccomending this extreme strategy to anyone unless they truly understand what to expect from it and are actually willing to accept it. If any cis males are tempted to try, it might be a good idea to get sperm frozen unless youre positive of not wanting kids and also to save up money for gyno surgery.
I popped a diane-35 for 2 weeks and continued to use 1.5mg estrogel as well... breasts are sore
Finally i gave up on my hope to discover some kinda uncommon hair secret and went with the more established Antiandrogen route. Eventually I learned that extreme regimens might regrow hair. AntyDHTor was a big inspiration. I wanted REAL results, not looking closely in the mirror and getting excited if I think I might see 2 vellus hairs that weren't there before.
I started off really cautious because I was nervous. scared of the effects on the liver from Cypro and worried about growing boobs on Estrogen. starting on June 2nd I took Cyproterone Acetate 50mg and .75mg topical estradiol 2 times a week. I took this about 2 x a week until July 5th. and I started taking dutasteride everyday on June 29th. I may have noticed some fuzzies on my temples during June. but they didn't grow at all or develope. They were very very tiny.
During June, Im not sure if can count as part of my total treatment time. I still had a strong libido, i think it might have been a little bit lower??, but Im not sure. maybe just nocebo.
Anyway, I felt more comfortable and started taking 50mg cypro Everyday on July 5th. Also started minoxidil 2x a day every other day, and estrogel Every Other day. My temples started filling with more fuzzy hairs. I could clearly see them in certain light but when i tried to take pictures even in the same light, my camera couldn't see them. I tried many times. The fuzzies become slowly easier to see, finally about 3 weeks later I was able to capture my fuzzy vellus on camera.
At that point my results were not yet cosmetically significant.. could be a coincidence but it did seem that right after I switched to using estrogel everyday, results jumped up.
Starting On August 4th I took 100mg of Cypro Everyday for 3 weeks. and then went back down to 50mg. Also sometime in August I switched to using 1.5mg topical Estradiol.
and when i made more extreme switches later results jumped up again.
Ok, I know people will criticize and think I'm crazy. As Anty used to say, " I have the sides in my ***".
Ask me anything you want about the other effects of this regimen.
I'm not reccomending this extreme strategy to anyone unless they truly understand what to expect from it and are actually willing to accept it. If any cis males are tempted to try, it might be a good idea to get sperm frozen unless youre positive of not wanting kids and also to save up money for gyno surgery.
I popped a diane-35 for 2 weeks and continued to use 1.5mg estrogel as well... breasts are sore
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Whatevr is however unimpressed by the blossoming hair all over Bridge's head:
Without them - he would not even have those results. So, no use bringing that up as a point...
Estrogen is almost the only thing that brings any kind of results actually worth mentioning when it comes to this damn disease.
When someone comes up with a non-hormonal treatment that delivers the same regrowth as high-dose estrogen with very few side effects then you can color me impressed. Otherwise we're just talking about toys.
f*** a 2-3% improvement in hair density when as a balding man you have 25-30% hair density of a healthy head of hair.
>99% of the things you can use against your hair loss are so f*****g worthless, and so far from being any kind of decent treatment (let alone the cure) that they are hardly worth talking about. That goes for Finasteride, Minoxidil, and almost everything we have. If we could apply estrogen and CPA locally without them going systemic, we would begin to approach something worthy of being called a hair loss treatment. Everything else is, as we would say around these parts, "f*****g the wind sideways".
Without them - he would not even have those results. So, no use bringing that up as a point...
Estrogen is almost the only thing that brings any kind of results actually worth mentioning when it comes to this damn disease.
When someone comes up with a non-hormonal treatment that delivers the same regrowth as high-dose estrogen with very few side effects then you can color me impressed. Otherwise we're just talking about toys.
f*** a 2-3% improvement in hair density when as a balding man you have 25-30% hair density of a healthy head of hair.
>99% of the things you can use against your hair loss are so f*****g worthless, and so far from being any kind of decent treatment (let alone the cure) that they are hardly worth talking about. That goes for Finasteride, Minoxidil, and almost everything we have. If we could apply estrogen and CPA locally without them going systemic, we would begin to approach something worthy of being called a hair loss treatment. Everything else is, as we would say around these parts, "f*****g the wind sideways".
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Nor was IdealForehead:
I just noticed your comment on the gyno bridgeburn.
90% of your gyno is likely from the estrogen. I have a very strong belief that estrogen is not directly actually helpful to hair growth, and the reason estrogen helps hair growth is more by suppressing your androgen production when it goes systemic. This is based on the fact that almost all estrogen treatments for postmenopausal women list hair LOSS as a COMMON side effect, and none list hair growth as a side effect.
You don't need the estrogen with such an otherwise aggressive regimen.
You don't need the added androgen suppression from the estrogen.
Dutasteride has only a ~3% risk of gynecomastia. Cyproterone is generally quoted as a <10% risk of gynecomastia.
But estrogen in sufficient doses will universally cause gynecomastia.
Allow Bridge to Retort:
I believe Estrogen is directly good for hair.
Experiments done on Eunuchs showed that giving them Testosterone injections caused hairloss. But when you stop giving them T, their hair does not grow back. Their hair loss just stops progressing.
but unlike eunuchs transgenders can experience amazing hair regrowth.
Its also noted medically that women may experience thicker hair during pregnancy when estrogen rises. but lose that extra hair after birth when estrogen falls and prolactin/progesterone rises.
studies also show that estrogen increases the anagen phase.
its also common for older women to experience hairloss after menopause.
Maybe too high levels could also cause hairloss. Its possible i could continue with only cypro, but thats really not healthy, both T and E do something to maintain bones and without much levels of any sex hormones, might get bone problems in the future.
Also I dont care about having big puffy nipples. I only care if the actual entire breast gets big. so far It's not. if it does i can get it surgerically removed.
So my point is if you want the gyno to go away, stop the estrogen. I am almost 100% certain you won't lose any ground from doing so.
Alternatively you could take tamoxifen, but taking estrogen and then using tamoxifen is kind of idiotic and just pumping your body with contradictory chemicals so I wouldn't suggest that route.
I just noticed your comment on the gyno bridgeburn.
90% of your gyno is likely from the estrogen. I have a very strong belief that estrogen is not directly actually helpful to hair growth, and the reason estrogen helps hair growth is more by suppressing your androgen production when it goes systemic. This is based on the fact that almost all estrogen treatments for postmenopausal women list hair LOSS as a COMMON side effect, and none list hair growth as a side effect.
You don't need the estrogen with such an otherwise aggressive regimen.
You don't need the added androgen suppression from the estrogen.
Dutasteride has only a ~3% risk of gynecomastia. Cyproterone is generally quoted as a <10% risk of gynecomastia.
But estrogen in sufficient doses will universally cause gynecomastia.
Allow Bridge to Retort:
I believe Estrogen is directly good for hair.
Experiments done on Eunuchs showed that giving them Testosterone injections caused hairloss. But when you stop giving them T, their hair does not grow back. Their hair loss just stops progressing.
but unlike eunuchs transgenders can experience amazing hair regrowth.
Its also noted medically that women may experience thicker hair during pregnancy when estrogen rises. but lose that extra hair after birth when estrogen falls and prolactin/progesterone rises.
studies also show that estrogen increases the anagen phase.
its also common for older women to experience hairloss after menopause.
Maybe too high levels could also cause hairloss. Its possible i could continue with only cypro, but thats really not healthy, both T and E do something to maintain bones and without much levels of any sex hormones, might get bone problems in the future.
Also I dont care about having big puffy nipples. I only care if the actual entire breast gets big. so far It's not. if it does i can get it surgerically removed.
So my point is if you want the gyno to go away, stop the estrogen. I am almost 100% certain you won't lose any ground from doing so.
Alternatively you could take tamoxifen, but taking estrogen and then using tamoxifen is kind of idiotic and just pumping your body with contradictory chemicals so I wouldn't suggest that route.
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All of that is on Page 1 of the f*****g thread, lol but people might see how often Bridge and I say almost identical things but mostly I learned on the Reddit boards.
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Retorts Mr. Forehead with the ridiculous estrogen is bad for hair theory since it lessens hair regrowth in murine species, sigh:
I cannot find a single good reference that states estrogen directly promotes hair growth in any way.
The closest I just came to verifying your suggestion re: eunichs was a quote here of an anecdote posted in the comments where ONE man who was castrated was experimented upon. That's not enough to make a general decision.
Here is a 2012 study that summarizes what I'm talking about regarding estrogen and hair:
Abstract
Estrogen dysregulation causes hair disorder. Clinical observations have demonstrated that estrogen raises the telogen/anagen ratio and inhibits hair shaft elongation of female scalp hair follicles. In spite of these clinical insights, the properties of estrogen on hair follicles are poorly dissected. In the present study, we show that estrogen induced apoptosis of precortex cells and caused premature catagen by up-regulation of TGF β2. Immediately after the premature catagen, the expression of anagen chalone BMP4 increased. The up-regulation of BMP4 may further function to prevent anagen transition and maintain telogen. Interestingly, the hair follicle stem cell niche was not destructed during these drastic structural changes caused by estrogen. Additionally, dermal papilla cells, the estrogen target cells in hair follicles, kept their signature gene expressions as well as their hair inductive potential after estrogen treatment. Retention of the characteristics of both hair follicle stem cells and dermal papilla cells determined the reversibility of the hair cycle suppression. These results indicated that estrogen causes reversible hair cycle retardation by inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.
Sample Quote
The effects of estrogen on hair disorder has been well established. Due to high levels of plasma estrogens, pregnant women display a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair [22]. Their scalp hairs demonstrated an increased telogen/anagen ratio [23]. The hair shaft elongation of organ cultured female scalp HFs is also inhibited by estrogen [24], [25].
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040124
I think you should read that article and reconsider. That's the most thorough article on estrogen and hair and they are very much saying estrogen does NOT have a directly positive effect on hair growth. To the contrary, they are saying it has a direct NEGATIVE effect on the follicles.
I cannot find a single good reference that states estrogen directly promotes hair growth in any way.
The closest I just came to verifying your suggestion re: eunichs was a quote here of an anecdote posted in the comments where ONE man who was castrated was experimented upon. That's not enough to make a general decision.
Here is a 2012 study that summarizes what I'm talking about regarding estrogen and hair:
Abstract
Estrogen dysregulation causes hair disorder. Clinical observations have demonstrated that estrogen raises the telogen/anagen ratio and inhibits hair shaft elongation of female scalp hair follicles. In spite of these clinical insights, the properties of estrogen on hair follicles are poorly dissected. In the present study, we show that estrogen induced apoptosis of precortex cells and caused premature catagen by up-regulation of TGF β2. Immediately after the premature catagen, the expression of anagen chalone BMP4 increased. The up-regulation of BMP4 may further function to prevent anagen transition and maintain telogen. Interestingly, the hair follicle stem cell niche was not destructed during these drastic structural changes caused by estrogen. Additionally, dermal papilla cells, the estrogen target cells in hair follicles, kept their signature gene expressions as well as their hair inductive potential after estrogen treatment. Retention of the characteristics of both hair follicle stem cells and dermal papilla cells determined the reversibility of the hair cycle suppression. These results indicated that estrogen causes reversible hair cycle retardation by inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.
Sample Quote
The effects of estrogen on hair disorder has been well established. Due to high levels of plasma estrogens, pregnant women display a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair [22]. Their scalp hairs demonstrated an increased telogen/anagen ratio [23]. The hair shaft elongation of organ cultured female scalp HFs is also inhibited by estrogen [24], [25].
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040124
I think you should read that article and reconsider. That's the most thorough article on estrogen and hair and they are very much saying estrogen does NOT have a directly positive effect on hair growth. To the contrary, they are saying it has a direct NEGATIVE effect on the follicles.
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Better late than ever, Mr. Forehead admits misreading a key line from his own proposed study:
What they say quite literally DIRECTLY contradicts the study I posted:
This is well in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Schumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2.
The 2012 study I posted goes on and on about how to the contrary, estrogen SHORTENS anagen (and INDUCES telogen).
Estrogen is obviously very complicated for hair.
Says Bridge:
The way I interpret what I've read on pubmed is that estrogen actually causes hair to grow slower but keeps the hair in the growing phase longer.. slow and steady wins the race? but only the hair specifically in the temples, it causes to grow faster and stay in anagen..
Wow. Thanks for posting. That's bizarre as f***.
What they say quite literally DIRECTLY contradicts the study I posted:
This is well in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Schumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2.
The 2012 study I posted goes on and on about how to the contrary, estrogen SHORTENS anagen (and INDUCES telogen).
Estrogen is obviously very complicated for hair.
Says Bridge:
The way I interpret what I've read on pubmed is that estrogen actually causes hair to grow slower but keeps the hair in the growing phase longer.. slow and steady wins the race? but only the hair specifically in the temples, it causes to grow faster and stay in anagen..
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Androgens are also linked to cancer. Prostate cancer. but with this kind of regimen its almost impossible for me to get prostate cancer.
Men can also get breast cancer but they dont usually have much estrogen and so don't usually get it so obviously this regimen may increase the chance of that.
Internet says 1 in 6 men will get prostate cancer at some point if they live long enough. (in the U.S.)
and also that 1 in 8 women will get breast cancer at some point (in the U.S.)
1/8 is better than 1/6 ,So basically what I'm saying is that extreme regimens reduce the chance of getting cancer. Hahahhahaha!
leave the guy alone, he already said he'd reconcile his thoughts based on the contridictory studies we showed him.Indeed. but in the long term, are blood clots good for hair?
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DHT Police:
That's true. I take ethinylestradiol currently instead of bioidentical estradiol (Progynova, Estrofem, etc). It's cheaper and much stronger.
50 mcg of ethinylestradiol is equivalent to 2 mg of estradiol valerate, if I recall right. I take 1 30 mcg pill 2 t/d, therefore 60 mcg per day. After 1 year will switch to bioidentical estradiol.
Trandsermal estrogen provides more stable levels, than oral; also this route of administration is considered to be the safest form of HRT, because of relatively low risk of hepatotoxicity. The only problem with gel is that it was initially intended for female type of skin, which is much thinner than men's, therefore full penetration can be problematic. From what I read, your dosage of gel is very low to achieve normal (or even low) female levels of estradiol. You might benefit from adding more estrogen to your regimen, then regrowth should appear a lot faster.
That's true. I take ethinylestradiol currently instead of bioidentical estradiol (Progynova, Estrofem, etc). It's cheaper and much stronger.
50 mcg of ethinylestradiol is equivalent to 2 mg of estradiol valerate, if I recall right. I take 1 30 mcg pill 2 t/d, therefore 60 mcg per day. After 1 year will switch to bioidentical estradiol.
Trandsermal estrogen provides more stable levels, than oral; also this route of administration is considered to be the safest form of HRT, because of relatively low risk of hepatotoxicity. The only problem with gel is that it was initially intended for female type of skin, which is much thinner than men's, therefore full penetration can be problematic. From what I read, your dosage of gel is very low to achieve normal (or even low) female levels of estradiol. You might benefit from adding more estrogen to your regimen, then regrowth should appear a lot faster.
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It's not that bad. Just male meds, the Big 3 can get you back to baseline most likely.
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Westonci appeared to have some improvement with seti but nothing too dramatic, he wasn't using a 5ar inhibitor though. Swiss was using dutasteride with the prostaglandin protocol, which according to the theory androgens increase pgd2, so it makes sense that if you don't use a 5ar inhibitor, you would need a high enough dose to "outrun" the pgd2 production from androgens.ALightInTheDark said:
2+ Norwood I don't recall but 1 Norwood without side effect and total maintenance there is plenty of in private forum.
Also,there is only 2 to 3 people who is using Seti at 1.5/2g a day,and it started 2 months ago (westonci is part of it.)
Most of them use it at 100 to 500mg/day.
Clinical trials are at 1.5/2g a day.
Not everbody can afford that,you may have forget this little detail : seti is a new and money dependent drug.
And not everybody dermaroll 1.5mm every week with PGE2 etc etc. We're not all rich,and people who are,have less time than us,so they can't properly do the protocol.
Also Seti in comparaison of Fevi or Pullmagen is weak
And at what price ? Sexual side effects. No thanks,hair loss is already too much of a f*****g malediction to have another one.
You forget also one thing : not everyone is a good responder of fina and minoxidil,if it was the case, the sucess stories thread sould be full of NW1
Only few people manage to have astonashing results on big 3. Majority of people have just maintenance and for some it doesn't work.
There are many who use finasteride and minoxidil and get results for a couple years but eventually lose ground again, I believe this is also what happened to Swiss, his last photo he posted in my opinion looked worse than the previous photo and he hasn't updated his blog in years, he also claimed to be close to his juvenile hairline but after never showed pics from enough distance to show it.
The only evidence for the prostaglandin method I've seen so far is from Swiss and Westconli but that doesn't satisfying prove it would cause long term healthy anagen hair growth.. Minoxidil if used alone also regrows hair, sometimes for months or years but it's well known that if you don't take drugs to alter your hormones, then genetics eventually catch up again.. So, how can we know that the same thing doesn't happen with the PGD2 theory?
Swiss even often recommended not using Keto shampoo because keto reduces Pge2. Lol
Swooping had some interesting viewpoints throughout this thread ---> https://www.baldtruthtaIk.com/threads/19018-Setipiprant/page11
I agree Hair is a multi angled approach.and maybe pdg2 inhibitors/ pge2 could be a part of a non-feminizing solution someday. but alone it is not the cure. PGD2 is not the only thing bad for hair an PGE2 is not the only thing good for hair. I doubt its the sole reason for balding. theres other negative growth factors too, Tgfb, dkk-1, oxidative stress, IFN-gamma, etc
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A little update.
I've decided to take a break from Cypro. for a few reasons:
1. I don't want to build tolerance to it. (I don't know if this is possible but Im worried just in case)
2. I don't want to elevate prolactin too much. and Cypro increases the risk of developing prolactin producing tumors.
3. I miss drinking alcohol. Hahaha
Since Nov. 2nd. I dropped cypro and increased Estrogel dose to 3mg of E a day. hopefully E alone will suppress my T.
Im waiting for oral minoxidil pills to arrive in the mail and also for Estrofem pills to arrive and will try those next.
After a month or two. I will restart cypro.
I have a bit of unfortunate news, It seems a patch of my beard has thinned. I just noticed this yesterday. (hair on cheeks cheeks are shaved on purpose but ive been letting sideburns grow)