Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

JaneyElizabeth

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i have been on minoxdil 5 percent and finasteride 1mg but no results i am vexed.my male pattern baldness is horse shoe shape due to 10years of fapping
Masturbation does not cause hair loss in males, females or other. Goddess knows, when is this shibboleth going to stop. People who are balding need stuff that's fun and especially during a pandemic. I absolve all from guilt about solo sex. It won't affect anything either way. Beards, baldness and masturbation, especially in males are of course all correlated since they imply sexual maturation. @109
 

Gergely

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I do not recommend this path to anyone save FtM's with the removal. The goal of this is not mutilation in my view but eh. Ymmv. at 107. The thread is still fascinating to me, how the folks come and go and it's like the Bridge is the Oracle of Delphi of hair regrowth with Aphrodite guiding his answers....Yep. Love Greek lit and mythology. Chimeras especially....
hmmmm might as well have tits at that point
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I noticed a strange thing. In addition to Avodart, I take 1 mg of estradiol. So this estradiol increases my libido. I feel like in 20 years. And a lot of energy. Maybe in my body estradiol turns into testosterone? The formula is very similar.
No, no, no, no, no, no.

No!

Yes they are similar in chemical composition as are P4 and spironolactone and other meds. They all derive from cholesterol molecules. It is amazing how similar they are chemically but all of us produce more T than E in terms of volume even females. That's why the denotion is so different with pg vs. ng /ml. Somehow estrogen defeats the big bad T and turns it into E. Breaking down DHT is far more problematic. @110.
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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Nah, thankfully E cannot be turned into test.

It's quite possibly that the avodart is increasing your testosterone somewhat, and estradiol does have some other beneficial effects, people tend to villainize estrogen, but it can improve aspects of male health as well.

Like I said, a lot of guys have no idea how much estrogen is circulating in their bodies and have been told a lot of non-truths about what role estrogen plays in the body of a healthy guy.

I'm honestly glad my libido has gone down a bit from the estrogen, it was getting really stupid, I don't need to feel like I have to f*** every single day, it's more of a burden than it is anything else, and I'm not working in p**rn so that's not really a plus.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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hmmmm might as well have tits at that point
I do my best to help folks avoid them but facts is facts. We are walking a very slim tight rope here complicated by the fact that many MtF's like us hair folks will try and have tried everything to develop them and they become often just as despondent. BA is no more a solution for many of us than transplants are for folks on here. We are defying nature and yet, doing reasonably well in the hair field.
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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hmmmm might as well have tits at that point

I do not agree that removal of estrogen receptors in the chest area is mutilation, I know guys who are body builders and otherwise fitness conscious who have taken TRT that got it done and it worked out fine for them.

Mutilation in my opinion is anything that detracts from somebody in a fundamental way, people go to an orthodontist because they don't want abnormal maxillary growth mutilating their appearance, and they do that by slowly inducing bone loss/resorption with braces.

The concept of mutilation is relative, and I fully intend on getting the surgery done anyhow, chest and other forms of sculpting before I'm 45.

I want my hair and to not look like an incarnation of baphomet tyvm.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Nah, thankfully E cannot be turned into test.

It's quite possibly that the avodart is increasing your testosterone somewhat, and estradiol does have some other beneficial effects, people tend to villainize estrogen, but it can improve aspects of male health as well.

Like I said, a lot of guys have no idea how much estrogen is circulating in their bodies and have been told a lot of non-truths about what role estrogen plays in the body of a healthy guy.

I'm honestly glad my libido has gone down a bit from the estrogen, it was getting really stupid, I don't need to feel like I have to f*** every single day, it's more of a burden than it is anything else, and I'm not working in p**rn so that's not really a plus.
This person likely isn't around any longer. I am trying to find the most efficient way of breaking down 400 pages or so of Bridge's wisdom because we have essentially all new turn over so we need to help the noobies. This is something that I can do and have time to do cause I enjoy it. I am not trying to crowd out anyone but many followers of Bridge and even many MtF's have these misconceptions. I am including page numbers so people can look at the interesting posts and not have to plow through crap like insults to trans folks or insults or any of the other crap including the experimental folks who rarely say anything helpful although I do read what they post and I am not against them but this is complicated enough without invective, insults or know-it-alls who do not know what they are talking about or who are tossing things out that other people might cite to.

I do recommend that everyone read this thread up to the point where Bridge left.
 

Gergely

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I do not agree that removal of estrogen receptors in the chest area is mutilation, I know guys who are body builders and otherwise fitness conscious who have taken TRT that got it done and it worked out fine for them.

Mutilation in my opinion is anything that detracts from somebody in a fundamental way, people go to an orthodontist because they don't want abnormal maxillary growth mutilating their appearance, and they do that by slowly inducing bone loss/resorption with braces.

The concept of mutilation is relative, and I fully intend on getting the surgery done anyhow, chest and other forms of sculpting before I'm 45.

I want my hair and to not look like an incarnation of baphomet tyvm.
I was just referring to the picture included. It looks real bad, like they forget to remove the soruounding fat and chopped off the nipples and put them back again.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I do not agree that removal of estrogen receptors in the chest area is mutilation, I know guys who are body builders and otherwise fitness conscious who have taken TRT that got it done and it worked out fine for them.

Mutilation in my opinion is anything that detracts from somebody in a fundamental way, people go to an orthodontist because they don't want abnormal maxillary growth mutilating their appearance, and they do that by slowly inducing bone loss/resorption with braces.

The concept of mutilation is relative, and I fully intend on getting the surgery done anyhow, chest and other forms of sculpting before I'm 45.

I want my hair and to not look like an incarnation of baphomet tyvm.
That's what I implied but let's be clear. This is not a value judgment just the definition:

"the infliction of serious damage on something". Oxford Press

I care not what anyone does but I also refuse to promote the idea that many have incessantly on here, that folks remove breast tissue and enter into this with this idea. Marky was obsessed with Bridge not having breast removal.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I was just referring to the picture included. It looks real bad, like they forget to remove the soruounding fat and chopped off the nipples and put them back again.
I agree. I have a close FtM friend and I support whatever he chooses and people know about these options. Aesthetically reduction looks much nicer to me but many folks need the areolas curtailed as well and the results are all over the place. Trust me. I spend lots of time on all of the HRT results sites with pictures.

Goddess guide all of us in our decisions related to alterations of all kind, chemically and otherwise.
 

Gergely

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I was just referring to the picture included. It looks real bad, like they forget to remove the soruounding fat and chopped off the nipples and put them back again.
I would rather take the tits or no nipples at all if that's the result in getting.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I would rather take the tits or no nipples at all if that's the result in getting.
I am quite clear that I advocate Greek and Roman classical ideas regarding youth and androgyny. Folks should look at various statues of gods like:


1613868731717.png


Others might prefer Alice the Sea Hag or the more male-ish represenations of Thor and Zeus and that's their judgment.

1613868981534.png
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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Bridge:

Now, I have yet another point believe it or not.. :

Our hair follicles produce both aromatase and 5ar. Although women have more in the frontotemporal regions than men. estrogen might be the reason for this: "we noticed in 17alpha-estradiol-incubated (1 nM) female hair follicles a concentration- and time-dependent increase of aromatase activity" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948 However, I haven't found an estradiol incubated study done on follicles from men.

but Also,
"Plucked human hair follicles demonstrate aromatase activity in culture (Schweikert et al., 1975), while a comparison of scalp biopsies from men and women with androgenetic alopecia revealed aromatase levels to be higher in hair follicles from occipital scalp when compared to those from the frontal scalp (Sawaya and Price, 1997)."

"Furthermore, the same study found that aromatase levels were approximately six times higher in the frontal hair follicles of women when compared to men."


So, If you were to take a look at the scalp androgen receptors (of someone not on hormone altering treatments) I doubt if you'd find much testosterone there because whenever testosterone reaches the follicles from the blood stream it will end up being converted into either DHT or Estradiol.. and if you Inhibit 5AR with dutasteride, or etc. Then yes, the rise in testosterone can be good for hair, because you are increasing the amount of T which becomes E in the scalp.

We also know that testosterone has an inhibitory effect on breast development, but if you were to rub topical testosterone gel on your breasts,,.. there's a good chance it will actually make gyno worse because of Aromatase. and that's exactly what happens and is known to happen with bodybuilders who take testosterone for steroidal gains in the gym.

So, if you want to know how good testosterone directly is for hair. then you would have to inhibit both 5alpha reductase and aromatase.

I figured this out via beard removal and the plucked hair studies that no one seems interested in. This is at 111 and every single thing that Bridge says seems to me to be supported by the literature and my own experiences with dermatitis and it's resurrection when I was pounding oral min. I had not seen a touch of dermatitis in a year and I have ~ zero T so where's the dermatitis coming from? Why do only some castrates and MtF's after orchiectomy get massive regrowth even with the addition of E2? The more I read Bridge's stuff; he's a uniquely talented individual who is rarely wrong in my opinion and if he is, it is because studies have come out since and cause the estradiol-only movement just gets more high profile.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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For those with itchy anti-androgen. There is nothing surprising in this. Anti androgenv can not be taken without hormones. It is deadly. No transsexual will take anti-androgens without hormones. From this come heart attacks and strokes. They can only be taken with hormones. If you are taking an anti-androgen, then you need to take estradiol. The body should be either testosterone or estradiol.
Otherwise, the body is destroyed. The same thing happens with old men.
Anti androgen can stop baldness, but can not grow hair. Grow hair can only hormone. The hormone can also heal the skin that is itchy. I do not take any anti-androgens at all. I never took spironolactone and Cipro. I have half a tablet of estradiol slowly growing small new hair. But it will be much longer than the bridgeburn. I have testosterone and estradiol 50/50% in my body. I also take dutasteride, but this is not an anti-androgen. Anti androgens without hormones can only help those who have a lot of aromatase ..
Hair grows only from estradiol or progesterone. And if you take estradiol testosterone itself will fall. Progesterone itself works almost like Cipro and blocks androgens and competes with alpha reductase. Only progesterone, unlike сipro, is not harmful. It is possible instead of progesterone Dutа or finasteride. Because testosterone itself without DHT is not active. I read the MTF forum :D

Maybe I'm wrong.
This is very close to being correct: I read the MTF forum :D
 

JaneyElizabeth

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y'all shouldn't take estradiol orally. the liver will convert 70% of it to weaker estrogens. only take it buccally or sublingually
So here: Bridge is not incorrect but this relates to how long someone wants to take to get to female adults levels. Folks paying out of pocket should consider injections and buccal/sublingual cause it is far cheaper than patches and you can reach targets sooner but many MtF's don't want to hit targets sooner--but no, otherwise pills work find in my opinion for feminization and hair regrowth provided E2 levels don't drop but we in the MtF world are currently unable to categorize any ingestion form as being better. Half-lives seem to matter more for psychological and sexual well-being though. @112. There was a seminal one person study from 2016 that showed amazing regrowth after adding spironolactone to an MtF's meds and hair growth exploded but guess what? She wasn't close to hitting targets beforehand and the authors concluded that hitting levels was what mattered, not that spironolactone did anything special. But people who aren't familiar with these meds likely take away, "oh spironolactone caused all of this growth". Unlikely.





Abstract​

Evidence of androgenetic alopecia, or male pattern baldness, can be distressing for transgender women. Here we present the case of a transgender woman with scalp hair regrowth after ∼6 months on oral estradiol and spironolactone therapy achieving testosterone levels within normal female range.

Introduction​

Androgenetic alopecia, also known as male pattern baldness, is a process by which hair loss from the scalp occurs in a progressive, predictable pattern. Recent research has proposed that it is a result of the presence of sufficient androgen, specifically dihydrotestosterone (DHT), in a person with genetic predisposition.1 Without therapeutic intervention, hair loss will become more severe over time.2 There are currently only two FDA-approved treatments for androgenetic alopecia and both are more effective in arresting hair loss than in reversing it.1 The first is minoxidil, a topical vasodilatory agent that was initially approved for use as an antihypertensive.3 The second is finasteride, an oral inhibitor of type 2 5α-reductase enzyme, thereby halting the conversion of testosterone to DHT4 and reducing DHT concentrations in both the serum and scalp.5 With both of these therapies, the cessation of treatment leads to a reinitiation of the balding process, demonstrating that their effects are not permanent.2
Although scalp hair loss can be unwanted and bothersome for some men, it can be particularly distressing for transgender women as it may serve as a physical sign of an undesired male phenotype. Here we present the case of a transgender woman with scalp hair regrowth while on hormone therapy with oral estradiol and spironolactone.

Case Presentation​

A 33-year-old transgender female presented to an outpatient clinic with hair thinning in addition to hair line regression at the crown and bilateral temporal regions of the scalp. She wished to reverse these changes to whatever extent possible.
The patient had a history of asthma. Medications were albuterol inhaler as needed. She had no known allergies. On examination, her vital signs were within normal limits. She was well appearing and in no acute distress. Her thyroid, pulmonary, cardiac, gastrointestinal, and neurological examinations were all within normal limits. She exhibited evidence of male pattern baldness with deep symmetrical recession of scalp hair at the temples as well as the frontal hairline (Figs. 1 and 2).
figure1.gif

FIG. 1.  Scalp at baseline, frontal view. Serum testosterone level was 455 ng/dL.
figure2.gif

FIG. 2.  Scalp at baseline, top view.
Baseline testosterone level was within normal male range (300–1000 ng/dL) at 455 ng/dL. After the patient completed sperm banking, she was started on oral estradiol and spironolactone therapy. Over the course of ∼1 year, hormone therapy was titrated until the patient's testosterone levels were at goal. On a stable dose of estradiol 5 mg daily and spironolactone 150 mg daily, laboratory studies revealed the following: total testosterone 11 ng/dL (goal <100 ng/dL) and estradiol 92 pg/mL (goal <200 pg/mL). Cholesterol panel and potassium level were normal.
After 6 months of treatment, the patient reported that she was happy with her regimen; she reported good effect in her physical appearance. In particular, she noted scalp hair regrowth as well as thickening of her existing hair (Figs. 3 and 4).
figure3.gif

FIG. 3.  Scalp after ∼6 months of daily treatment with oral estradiol 5 mg and spironolactone 150 mg, frontal view. Serum testosterone level was 11 ng/dL.
figure4.gif

FIG. 4.  Scalp after ∼6 months of hormone treatment, top view.

Discussion​

One goal of hormone therapy for male-to-female individuals is to reduce male-pattern hair growth.6 Based on our clinical experience, we have long suspected that there was reversal of male pattern baldness in transgender women on treatment to a degree dependent on age and likely other factors. The case presented demonstrates that hormone therapy for male-to-female transgender patients with estrogen and spironolactone can not only reduce male-pattern hair distribution but can also reverse previous effects of androgen on scalp hair patterns.
Spironolactone is an antiandrogen that acts primarily through competitive inhibition of androgen receptors; however, it has additional antiandrogen properties through inhibition of 5α-reductase activity, DHT binding, and androgen synthesis in the testes.7,8 In one small study examining the effect of spironolactone on genital skin 5α-reductase activity in vivo of hirsute women, spironolactone was found to have a direct inhibitory effect of 5α-reductase, thereby decreasing conversion of testosterone to DHT.9 Spironolactone is not commonly used to treat male pattern baldness, however, given the side effects of gynecomastia, impotence, and feminization of hair patterns.10 The antiandrogen effects of spironolactone that make it an undesirable option for treating male pattern baldness in men in fact make it a useful tool for achieving desired feminizing characteristics for transgender women, as seen in this case.
Estradiol plays a role in androgen inhibition. In males, estradiol has been shown to be one of the sex steroids (in addition to testosterone and DHT, however, through somewhat different mechanisms) capable of negative feedback on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to inhibit luteinizing hormone secretion11 and thereby decrease testicular leydig cell production of testosterone.
We believe that the mechanism responsible for achieving scalp hair regrowth in transgender women is the suppression of testosterone to normal female levels. In our experience, this usually requires therapy with both spironolactone and estradiol. However, if transgender women treated with estrogen alone can achieve testosterone at normal female levels, we would expect to see scalp hair regrowth in these patients as well. Furthermore, it would be interesting to determine whether more scalp hair regrowth occurs over time as this patient continues hormone therapy.
 

nicoandgello

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I am quite clear that I advocate Greek and Roman classical ideas regarding youth and androgyny. Folks should look at various statues of gods like:


View attachment 157413

Others might prefer Alice the Sea Hag or the more male-ish represenations of Thor and Zeus and that's their judgment.

View attachment 157414
I think that Greek and Roman standards of beauty only apply to men at this point. Overweight women stopped being seen as beautiful long time ago.
 

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JaneyElizabeth

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I think that Greek and Roman standards of beauty only apply to men at this point. Overweight women stopped being seen as beautiful long time ago.
As you agree I am sure, the way that society views shape is subject to change. For me androgyny can be beautiful for both genders/sexes but my ideal for females is this:

1613871759646.png


I find these women sublimely beautiful and this embodies my ultimate preferences but again MtF's and FtM's often prefer hyper-estrogenic or hyper-androgenic ideals. Some of you love the manga ideal which I don't diss on as many MtF's lust after that ideal as well as well as our growing bimbo movement (I don't use this term derogatively at all).

I am attracted to people of all shapes and sizes but I have to pretty much not expect to reach these levels of beauty but I enjoy trying for this and androgyny and I go up and down in weight on purpose to try on different ideals.

1613872317779.png




Guess who won? My Goddess who is pictured in the center, Aphrodite, with Hera to the right and Athena to the left. It caused a really nasty long war but Europeans are wont to fight over things that make little sense.

But all praise, Aphrodite, the one true Goddess above and often referred to as Mary, the Queen of Heaven.
 
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nicoandgello

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As you agree I am sure, the way that society views shape is subject to change. For me androgyny can be beautiful for both genders/sexes but my ideal for females is this:

View attachment 157420

I find these women sublimely beautiful and this embodies my ultimate preferences but again MtF's and FtM's often prefer hyper-estrogenic or hyper-androgenic ideals. Some of you love the manga ideal which I don't diss on as many MtF's lust after that ideal as well as well as our growing bimbo movement (I don't use this term derogatively at all).

I am attracted to people of all shapes and sizes but I have to pretty much not expect to reach these levels of beauty but I enjoy trying for this and androgyny and I go up and down in weight on purpose to try on different ideals.

I had issues with my weight pretty much my whole life, same with eating disorders problem. My worst point was when I was 13, I was 162cm tall and weighted 88kg. That was my breaking point. Right now I can't imagine being even "normal" as I am 174 and 59kg currently. Never felt better. I don't find those women attractive at all, but it's connected to my previous weight problems.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I had issues with my weight pretty much my whole life, same with eating disorders problem. My worst point was when I was 13, I was 162cm tall and weighted 88kg. That was my breaking point. Right now I can't imagine being even "normal" as I am 174 and 59kg currently. Never felt better. I don't find those women attractive at all, but it's connected to my previous weight problems.
I pushed 85 kilos when I first went on DIY, on purpose and my ex thought that I was letting myself go. Then I went down to 125lbs and folks though I was on heroin. Last time I had court vs. my ex, I made sure that I weighed exactly what she did, at 135 lbs. I love trying to annoy her by outdoing her but she is sublimely beautiful but i think I look younger than she does now, natch, HRT and Estrogen come directly from above. Put your faith in the thought that the universe wants the best you for you! It's liberating.

Goddess bless.
 
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