Folexen: New Hair Loss Treatment based on S-Equol

[Sparky4444]

if a treatment works, you'll know within 6 months...at the very least, halting hairloss will be immediately noticeable...

 

[Jacob]

I don't think anyone particularly cared TBH...to go so far as to post a pic and all. At least I would just type it out.

Anyways, about the missing list of ingreds ....I think this is more of a start up sort of thing and Folexen is going to need to be a wee bit more professional re: the marketing and other stuff. He's probably new to this.

But lets face it packaging alone does not mean much. Its all the trust factor when we deal with anyone. Any and every company we are buying supplements from is pretty much operating on the same model. I ordered Thermascalp - it gives this laundry list of ingreds but has nothing about quantities, proportion etc. Dont even get me started on Spectral from DSC labs. Its ALL packaging. The box comes packaged as if its some million $ gizmo - and yeah, they charge an arm and a leg.

Net, yes Folexen should provide more details on the package BUT even then all we have to go on re: most of these firms is their word.

I thought someone mentioned the company has been around for a bit..even if this is their first product...

You're right..packaging alone doesn't mean much. But not having an ingreds list is...INSANE. This is where ppl would start wondering if you're just getting a ground up soy product or if it's just "plain" equol- R & S combined..etc. Isn't it a requirement to label the product with the ingredients? I'd like to see another example of a supplement being sold that doesn't list the ingreds.

Topicals, unless they contain a "drug"..99.99% of the time aren't going to list quantities, proportions etc.

Thats a lot of buts, bro... saw palmetto and other stuff is all over the place - i mean folks have had bad reactions from all sorts of dosages.

Thing is Equols response is linear. You take x, it does x, you take y greater than x, it will do likewise.

I dont know if the other stuff scales up like that. Thats the scary part.

First of all..we really don't know for sure what Equols "response" will be. Even Propecia with their trials and crap didn't tell the whole story. Equol could be all over the place as well. But back to SP...there are plenty of guys, using it for hair loss or not, who are benefiting from it w/out side effects. Now it's not something I would personally take super-long term....

with the other stuff I mean..
6 mg of R+S equol - I dont know what the effect will be.

I think somebody posted a study which said s-equol has shown 10-15% reduction in DHT at 3 mg. 6 mg should be around 20-30% logically.

The other part is that in the other study I posted (check my previous posts for a PDF link) R equol is not a positive, whereas S-equol is.

I thought Folexen says to take a total of 10mg daily.......but maybe I'm missing your point on that....

I posted some blurbs on the S and R as well. R-equol was not a negative. Again...I'm waiting to get some answers on it. And do we really know for sure Folexen doesn't contain the R as well?

It is a valid concern but my issue is more about the ingreds to begin with. I really dont want to experiment with any Five Alpha R inhibitors.

Five Alpha R is the key issue w/unresolved Propecia sides per recent research and messing with it, changes brain chemistry.

Equol - the link per research is primarily to DHT, and from DHT to other aspects. I think its safer.

You "think" it's safer? :turned: There's always the EquolSlim..if one wants to cut costs and try such a combo.

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if a treatment works, you'll know within 6 months...at the very least, halting hairloss will be immediately noticeable...

Not if you're one of the many who aren't so noticeably losing hair that fast.

 

[LawOfThelema]

Not if you're one of the many who aren't so noticeably losing hair that fast.

This is the main reason behind me taking more than their recommended dose. The more mild a product the hareder to tell if it works.

I still feel as a general rule something stopping your hair loss should reduce the number of hairs you shed daily. I've heard people say when something is working they shed less hair. If the proportion of hairs in the active phase to resting phase is increasing youd think the shed would decrease. Can someone who knows more hair biology weigh in on this? Tho I could see people with high hair growth rates have higher sheds. Their hair just turns over fast. Growing faster could mean they cycle phases faster, which I think would lead to higher sheds. Thoughts?

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You "think" it's safer? :turned:

All of the available medical research indicates such. Of course there isn't as much research on it as on finasteride.

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Thing is Equols response is linear.

Where did you find the dose response?

 

[zeroes]

Jacob the original company has an ABN (Aus Business Number) dating back to 2004.

 

[Aks20]

Hi Jacob,

We are again heading back to OT land. So not going to get into all the ingreds stuff etc. But its a good point of feedback for those guys making the product.. that is if he is still around..

This is the main reason behind me taking more than their recommended dose. The more mild a product the hareder to tell if it works.

How much are you taking and any sides so far?

Where did you find the dose response?

Its a reference in a study quoted earlier in this thread. When I am back home tonite I'll try and dig it up.

Basically 3 Mg showed some 10-15% reduction in DHT. Plus there was a graph of Equols effect in DHT plasma with a concentration linked to a DHT suppression of 70% (propecial level). Folexen, the account rep mentioned the 10mg/day level corresponded somewhere close to that. Its in his response in the thread.

Plus, there is a PDF I linked (please check my earlier posts if you have time) where it mentions linear dosage..

Hope that helps..

 

[LawOfThelema]

^ thanks, i'll dig that up.

well, the bottle says 2.5 mg s-equol capsules. a lot of vitamins don't list the fillers and inactive ingredients that they use. the most professionally operating companies do, but they all don't.

20 mg/day is what I have been using. First time I took 4 capsules at a time, I felt light headed, and extremely tired. Haven't noticed that sensation since. Urine stream has seemed "weak" and I may be pissing more often. I'll keep an eye on that.

 

[Aks20]

Pissing more often = possibly thanks to effect on prostrate..which means relaxation of pressure on urethra..at least thats what I can infer from the PDF study mentioned...I did the same w/Propecia..

You could also try it at max. 4/day bro...if 20 seems a bit excessive ....

Best of luck..

Heres another reference BTW
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21341397

The rapid absorption and pharmacokinetic parameters show that S-equol exposure is linear with dose. There were no significant drug-related adverse events ...

 

[zeroes]

This is the main reason behind me taking more than their recommended dose. The more mild a product the hareder to tell if it works.

I still feel as a general rule something stopping your hair loss should reduce the number of hairs you shed daily. I've heard people say when something is working they shed less hair. If the proportion of hairs in the active phase to resting phase is increasing youd think the shed would decrease. Can someone who knows more hair biology weigh in on this? Tho I could see people with high hair growth rates have higher sheds. Their hair just turns over fast. Growing faster could mean they cycle phases faster, which I think would lead to higher sheds. Thoughts?

The two proven (finasteride and minoxidil) hair loss products in the majority of people appear to cause an initial shed. Nothing else has proven to work in the medical community so we have to ask the question is an initial shed a bad thing?

 

[Strider]

For some men this will be enough to halt hair loss or even regrow hair over time. There are some side effects to inhibiting 5AR because the testosterone that isn’t being converted to DHT can trigger other hormonal responses in the body, as part of the natural hormonal feedback loop that we all have. Some men report lack of libido, erectile dysfunction or other side effects due to the increase in female hormones that are produced to counteract the higher levels of testosterone.

Enzymatic inhibitors have a drawback in that, for some men, the recommended dosage might not be sufficient to deactivate all the 5AR without causing other problems. In other words everyone probably has a dosage level at which the medication will work, but for some people there are too many concomitant side effects for the treatment to be safe. Merck have shown that normal dose Propecia resulted in improvement for 77% of patients [4]. Presumably a different treatment is required for the remaining men.

This is where S-equol can step up to the plate. It has a mode of action that is very different to the 5AR inhibitors. Instead of preventing the production of DHT, it binds strongly to the DHT molecules. When DHT has S-equol attached to it, it is no longer a form of 'free DHT', i.e. it cannot cause male pattern baldness because the molecule is no longer able to bind to receptor sites.

Guys, please stay ontopic and respect the rules of this board.

In general, i only see one reason why we are so interested in s-equol and that is the hormonal responses part. Folexen said that the side effects of inhibiting 5AR are triggered because 'the testosterone that isn't being converted to DHT can trigger other hormonal responses in the body, as part of the natural hormonal feedback loop that we all have'. This is interesting, because the natural hormonal feedback that we all have is with DHT. The question is, does inhibiting 5AR trigger hormonal responses because a large amount of you're testosterone isn't being converted into DHT, or is it because you're body just needs DHT.
If the last part is true, than s-equol is just a very expensive finasteride replacement.

 

[zeroes]

Law I think this is what Aks is referring to:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...d-on-S-equol?p=1091714&viewfull=1#post1091714

Start reading from there.

 

[Aks20]

Guys, please stay ontopic and respect the rules of this board.

In general, i only see one reason why we are so interested in s-equol and that is the hormonal responses part. Folexen said that the side effects of inhibiting 5AR are triggered because 'the testosterone that isn't being converted to DHT can trigger other hormonal responses in the body, as part of the natural hormonal feedback loop that we all have'. This is interesting, because the natural hormonal feedback that we all have is with DHT. The question is, does inhibiting 5AR trigger hormonal responses because a large amount of you're testosterone isn't being converted into DHT, or is it because you're body just needs DHT.
If the last part is true, than s-equol is just a very expensive finasteride replacement.

5 AR has a whole lot of stuff linked to hormonal responses and brain chemistry, best place is on propecia help.com's reference section.

Equol too is inhibiting DHT effects by binding to DHT and making it unavailable - which can create issues as well, but its safer than finasteride (IMO) because it does not mess with 5AR. FIVE AR is used all over the place by the body and not just T to DHT.

Net, I don't buy the stuff that Equol is 100% safe...because at the end of the day, we are reducing DHT. Which is why I am pushing for a topical mix, thinking of how to best do it, because that way, I can mess with the DHT on my scalp and not within the body.

 

[Strider]

5 AR has a whole lot of stuff linked to hormonal responses and brain chemistry, best place is on propecia help.com's reference section.

Equol too is inhibiting DHT effects by binding to DHT and making it unavailable - which can create issues as well, but its safer than finasteride (IMO) because it does not mess with 5AR. FIVE AR is used all over the place by the body and not just T to DHT.

Those studies relate 5AR with hormonal responses, however, those studies don't exclude the DHT part. Therefore, you don't know which part has the largest impact.

 

[Aks20]

Those studies relate 5AR with hormonal responses, however, those studies don't exclude the DHT part. Therefore, you don't know which part has the largest impact.

As far as I recall there are two different things.

One, the manner in which DHT is suppressed - and what it causes - which again leads to two effects (the lack of Alpha R effects), the hormone imbalance effects involved with the mechanism of action, basically T vs Estradiol etc
Second, the DHT reduction itself.

Now, I'd ask you to read through the refs given by zeros and in my previous links - roughly - and if you can get some better insight, correct me - tests on Equol have proven that it binds DHT but it does not cause significant spikes in "female" hormones...
Google for "Japanese men equol test"...they basically tested all their hormones.
Also, since Five Alpha R is not being stopped, it can still do whatever it does...propecia help mentions that five alpha R reduction is behind most if not all the depression/disconnect between brain and libido stuff.

The dangers of drastic DHT reduction remain. Here, references I posted previously show DHT is linked to prostrate size, sexual health, some amount of regulation of other hormones, and also physical strength.

Which is why i wouldnt want to take huge amounts of equol either, systemically.

Ok, here is the Japanese study FWIW
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/24/1_MeetingAbstracts/540.2

Again, are our non Japanese bodies the same as theirs? I don't know..

More details
http://esciencenews.com/articles/20....supplement.se5.oh.containing.natural.s.equol

Select excerpts - mind you, some of these guys were equol producers to begin with...so ...only the rest matter to us.

"Six of the placebo group (total 12 men), five of the 10 mg SE5-OH group (17 men) and eight of the 30 mg SE5-OH group (17 men) were documented as equol producers,"


"The current study evaluated the safety and tolerance of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol in healthy men. S-equol is under study to assist in the management of prostate health, as previous studies have indicated blood levels of equol are associated with reduced risk of prostate cancer in certain populations. This new safety study establishes that in healthy men, their concentrations of reproductive hormones as well as thyroid hormones remained within the normal range after 12 weeks of receiving SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol and the ingredient appears to be well tolerated.


Levels of six hormones remained in the normal range and did not significantly differ between men receiving a placebo (12 men) or one of two daily doses of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol, 10 milligrams (mg) (17 men) or 30 mg (17 men) for 12 weeks. Study investigators specifically measured total testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), FreeT3 (a form of triiodothyronine) and FreeT4 (a form of thyroxine).


"After testosterone secretion, an enzyme converts the hormone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which is a potent androgen and required for sex development. The conversion to DHT occurs in the prostate gland, testes, hair follicles and adrenal glands. DHT is responsible for the formation of primary male sex characteristics and most secondary male sex characteristics during puberty, such as muscular growth, facial and body hair growth, and deepening of the voice."

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Very rough numbers here: http://www.rbej.com/content/pdf/1477-7827-9-4.pdf

Page sizx of nine

Rats at 0.25mg/kg ---> 50% reduction in serum five alpha DHT
Prostrate weights decreased by 20%
Luteinizing Hormone - no statistically significant change
Testesterone - Ditto

I guess for a rough idea you can scale up that 0.25 mg/kg to an equivalent dose...though of course rats to humans is not apples to apples...it may give an idea though..

 

[lobsterlobster]

By the way, it looks like Folexen updated their FAQ section. Take a look: http://folexen.com/FAQ.aspx

 

[Jacob]

Jacob the original company has an ABN (Aus Business Number) dating back to 2004.

So 8 years..and they don't know enough to label the product, at least with an ingreds list?

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Hi Jacob,

We are again heading back to OT land. So not going to get into all the ingreds stuff etc. But its a good point of feedback for those guys making the product.. that is if he is still around..

No, it is not "OT land". I made a # of valid points and had some logical questions anyone here would ask of any other company. Or you. All on the subject of Folexen and equol.

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^ thanks, i'll dig that up.

well, the bottle says 2.5 mg s-equol capsules. a lot of vitamins don't list the fillers and inactive ingredients that they use. the most professionally operating companies do, but they all don't.

Do you have any examples of that? Here in the USA:

What information is required on a dietary supplement label?

FDA requires that certain information appear on the dietary supplement label (see sample product labels):
General information

• Name of product (including the word "supplement" or a statement that the product is a supplement)
• Net quantity of contents
• Name and place of business of manufacturer, packer, or distributor
• Directions for use

Supplement Facts panel

• Serving size, list of dietary ingredients, amount per serving size (by weight), percent of Daily Value (%DV), if established
• If the dietary ingredient is a botanical, the scientific name of the plant or the common or usual name standardized in the reference Herbs of Commerce, 2nd Edition (2000 edition) and the name of the plant part used
• If the dietary ingredient is a proprietary blend (i.e., a blend exclusive to the manufacturer), the total weight of the blend and the components of the blend in order of predominance by weight

Other ingredients

• Nondietary ingredients such as fillers, artificial colors, sweeteners, flavors, or binders; listed by weight in descending order of predominance and by common name or proprietary blend

Looks like the Aussies have similar requirements: http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/cm-argcm-p1.pdf

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By the way, it looks like Folexen updated their FAQ section. Take a look: http://folexen.com/FAQ.aspx

So now the ingreds "may" contain more than equol and starch :doh:

 

[Aks20]

No, it is not "OT land". I made a # of valid points and had some logical questions anyone here would ask of any other company. Or you. All on the subject of Folexen and equol.

Fine. Do what you want, continue as you wish but all I was saying is that as it is not re: the actual mechanism of equol or whether its working or not, as far as I am concerned its OT and surplus to what this thread could be used for.

So no replies from me on all this stuff...you are welcome of course to engage in this "debate" with anyone else..cheers

 

[Jacob]

I don't blame you for not trying to defend them or explain away things. This thread is not just about the mechanism of equol..you could say the other thread is actually for that.

 

[The Natural]

Jacob's concerns, especially as they pertain to product labeling, ingredients, etc. are legitimate, and should be given their due consideration. After which, I hope that this thread will become less about plagiarised theories of equol's potential, and more about the actual effects of Folexen on the hair/scalp.

 

[LawOfThelema]

this isnt a damn expository writing class. no one has plagiarized anything because no one is purporting that the discussion concerning equol is original research. if you dont think science or the science behind products used for balding is relevant to whether to use those products id disagree.

how can we discuss the actual effects when we are at most 1 week into treatment with this product? nothing generates a result in 1 week.

of course, it is legit to worry that a company selling a supplement didnt label the ingreds. lets hope its because they are neophytes in this industry. as long as it has active ingredient thats mainly what matters. i doubt theyd use something harmful if they wanted to generate some kind of tangible revenue off the thing.

 

[Sparky4444]

<removed, lets keep the insults out of this thread, Zeroes> The bottom line is that there is a ton of research done on Equol and how it binds to DHT...period...There is NOTHING else out there that claims to do this, and this is the best thing to go with at the moment...So instead of sitting around and watching my hair continue to fall out, I have nothing to lose but to go at it with this stuff...there is enough evidence to give this a legit try...

<removed, pointless, zeroes>

...I can't buy Equol anywhere in Canada, and all these websites selling it don't ship outside the US...so what the hell is up with that??? At this moment, I have no choice but to go with Follexen