Follica - Good News!

[Orin]

Sure, though I don't think it matters much. As I said, horrible camera and a hair-color that doesn't like photography.

Perhaps you can size them down so the details stand out. I'm clueless when it comes to picture, and I know there's a way to do that.. get the picture down to a small size, while keeping the size of the image up. When I tried it through image-shack I got pictures that were 6-10 kb per image. Go figure.

I also took a second picture, trying to catch one of the points where the hair has grown in a tuft. If it *is* new hair, then it bodes well for Follica, as that kind of hair is now as strong as any other, and I still have it, which might ease the worry that new hair can't grow on a scalp with male pattern baldness.

Here's the original:
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9954 ... e29xs9.jpg

And here's a second one, though perhaps not any better (though it looks better in the preview-screen)
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/508/picture28cg1.jpg

This is mostly for illustrative purposes, so that people know what I'm talking about. It's not so much hard-hittin' evidence, or any good measure for hair-count. The new hair is enough to spike together into 3 thin hair-spikes. It's substantial enough to be a proof of concept, insubstantial - in this form - to be of real cosmetic value.

That is, if I can't redo it. Though it's hard to see on the photo, but if I could repeat the process about 3, possibly 4 times, I'd have similar coverage to what I have on the rest of my head, which I guess is encouraging. Though it's not really important until I find a way to damage skin (preferably through acid) and leave the hair unaffected.

I'm not ready for the possible comittment of shaving my head, dermabrading it, treating it for 10 days and then repeat the process once healed, 4 or more times. That's too much of a comittment, and couldn't possibly be done while mainting a low profile. And that' what I think is needed, dermabrasion, as opposed to the discrete needling, to get any significant growth.

Still, food for thought. I hope what I'm doing is far inferior to anything Follica is using.

 

[SoThatsLife]

Hair loss treatment and bad cameras go hand in hand.....

 

[harold]

Interesting - looks like you have some real results Orin. Reminds me of the one hair I got growing far, far away from the hairline a while after needling (posted about it in the Experimental section). But that was back when I was on finasteride IIRC and I have since lost that hair and a fair few others. Still makes me think about going back to that lithium topical.
hh

 

[ross007]

so guys im some what intrested in this, all i need is a needle and some chemicals which are? could you guys tell us how you do it? thanks

 

[Orin]

Most people don't have professional-grade cameras. I am no different.

I'm not here to sell you anything, therefor I don't have anything to prove. It might be a sub-par image, but this is not some vague peach fuss. You can clearly see a row of hair beneath my "old" hair I've combed back with my hand, and that are noticably shorter, which is why they stand out.

Given that it is growth springing from a one-time treatment 2 months ago, I'd say it's significant.

I took a couple of other pictures. I've edited out background information, hopefully you can tolerate that. Other than these, I don't really know how to show off the new growth. It is what it is, and I'm not buying a new web-camera that I can't afford just so some stranger on a forum can be pleased. Come on man.

In this picture I have marked (crudely, I downloaded a simple image-editing tool) where my "old" hair grows, the actual hairline. Beneath the new hair grows:




This one probably most clearly shows of the tufts of hair, and gives an indication of how similar to the rest of the hair, the new hair is. You can clearly see new, shorter hair all across the side (my left side). The new hair is short and straight, whereas the old hair, as you can see on the front where I accidently got 2-3 hairs in the way, is slightly curly.




Other than that, I really don't know what to tell you. It's as good as I can illustrate it. If you're hell-bent on believing I've cut some of my old hair off, or that it's regrowth from some other means, then feel free to hold that belief. A picture is usually only proof of a picture having been taken.


EDIT: Harold, the reason you lost that one hair might be because it was hair awakened from resting phase. Hopefully hair generated from dermabrasion and WnT-signaling/EGFR-inhibitors are hair that has not endured years upon years of DHT-damage. That's a theory though, and I don't even know if this hair is actually genuinely new. If anything, it's a mix of awakened hair and new hair.

Should I loose all of it, I will post about it. But for some reason I'm thinking this hair will endure for quite some time, perhaps held active only with needling. Before I started needling my hair was about half as thick as it looks now. God knows what I *actually* look like . Not going to find out though.

 

[Orin]

Ross: If you're just going to needle, you need the thinnest diabetic needles you can find. I got 100 for.. I dunno, 8 bucks? I tape 4 of them together and go over the entire scalp. It's very painful at first, but you'll get used to it if done frequently enough.

In the beginning I did it every third or fourth day for a month. Now I do it every week, usually on sunday. After the initial breaking-in period, I found that my hair stays in this thickened-up state with only a once-a-week upkeep. Though I think doing it semi-frequently is important in the beginning, to kick-start it all.

Because I do it only once a week, my scalp is back to being really sensitive to it. I usually cure it by taking a drink or two beers or something, just enough to dull the sharp pain of it. I push the needles down halfway, it's like 1,5 mm or so. There's very little, if any blood, and I don't think it's needed. The wounds are completly gone after 24 hours.

If it's dermbrasion you're interested in, then that's something else. It's tricky to get the right depth, so if it's something you're considering, I'd practice 2-3 times on other parts of your body. It does take practice, and the first try I had is still visible on my arm after 2 months. Nobody knows how deep you need to go, but I'm gussing removing just the outer layer is good enough.

As far as chemicals, I use lithium orotate, though lithium chloride is better, because it solves in water, whereas orotate only slightly solves in alcohol. I don't know how well it actually performs, which is why I've ordered caffeine powder to mix in it. Use water or alcohol, and put lithium (and possibly caffeine) in until the solution doesn't mix anymore. After you've dermabraded a very small area (probably wouldn't do more than a square cm), you let it heal for 3-4 days until it begins to scab. Try not to touch it.

Then you apply the solution in the morning and in the evening. Do this for 10 days. I used an ear-cleaning bud. Try not to touch the area, shampoo your hair or sleep on the area. I think I washed my hair once during it all.

That's about it. It's all a guessing game really.
Another reason why lithium chloride might be better, is because Follica's patent says to not use disinfectants, so you want to be as gentle as possible, and let the wound-area heal naturally, unaided. Caffeine is used because it might have EGFR-inhibition properties (among other things), though we don't know if it works. The patent also says to use synthetic chemicals, which might be true. Or it might say so because you can't patent naturally occuring chemicals.

 

[ross007]

thanks Orni. ummm i think im going to try the needle thing fist, seem more simple that adding all the chemicals. do you think it would be wise to needle first, then put minoxidil on b4 i go to bed?

 

[Ouroboros]

Orin, did you get most of your results before you tried dermabrasion; that is to say with needling only? If so...maybe I should try that.

 

[Orin]

It's hard to say which one brought on the best results. The lithium thing is, as I said, responsible for the tufts of hair that started to grow, while needling brought on the more single-stranded growths. Dermabrasion and lithium/caffeine is pretty involved stuff.

If I could give any advice, it would be that anyone should probably try to needle their entire scalp atleast once a week. It's so negligible in cost and time for a potentially great return. It's far from a cure, but it is something you can discreetly add to your arsenal. It has absolutely worked better than doing hours of laser-therapy (with a laser-brush) each week.

One theory is that needling breaks upp fibrosis in the scalp. I have no idea what it does. But if that is what it does, then I suppose very few other treatments can accomplish this. To battle hairloss sucessfully, you'll most likely need to attack it from a wide variety of angles. So far there's no one-click solution. On the flip-side; I have not noticed any increase in hairloss since starting to needling. If anything it's the opposite.

 

[chancer]

some kind of rolling pin with fine needles in it would be a great tool wouldnt it...

Well done Orinin.... great posts and advice...

BTW from the pics would never know you was loosing your hair at all...

 

[first]

Very interesting results.

The new hairs, are they of vellus quality or do they seem to be of terminal quality as the rest of your hair?

 

[ross007]

orin, i tried needling today, like you said tape four together.. god damm does it it, esp in the temples. ummm im going to do it 3 times a week and apply minoxidil after. i think it will be good. i will post about result after 3 months. how long did it take you to get results?

 

[harold]

EDIT: Harold, the reason you lost that one hair might be because it was hair awakened from resting phase. Hopefully hair generated from dermabrasion and WnT-signaling/EGFR-inhibitors are hair that has not endured years upon years of DHT-damage. That's a theory though, and I don't even know if this hair is actually genuinely new. If anything, it's a mix of awakened hair and new hair.

You know what? I went looking for that bastard this morning and he is still sitting there defiantly. Doesnt seem to have grown much if at all in the last few months so I guess he is a vellus sucker. I just dont think of it as reawakened hair cos it is sitting so far away from any of the others. Out there in no mans land....
Anyway beginning to think there may have been something to my little lithium needling kick of a few months back.
hh
hatchet from regrowth.com who has been using topical LiCl for ages - at least 6 months says he switched from needling which had helped to sandpaper type dermabrasion and got good results:

"I did get some results with needling and lithium, but I have been experimenting with sandpaper and lithium and getting better results. By results, I mean obvious new terminal hairs where there were none before, within a confined spot (exactly within the precise area) and within a short timeframe. Extrapolated to the entire scalp, I believe the results could be pretty significant. Going full scale with the program requires some preparation and timing though (like if you have to go out in public, for example, after the dermabrasion)."

hh

 

[Orin]

Yeah, the problem is that I don't think lithium is enough to get a really significant effect, in so far as it being worth doing over your entire scalp. This is more of a proof of concept right now... the whole homebrew-follica thing that is. I don't know if it can be attributed to us using non-synthetic compounds like the patent says, or that there's just not enough test data (from us) to say anything significant.

And yeah, the new hair, however they may have sprung forth, are terminal. Not vellous. Atleast one of the pictures I posted might give that impression, seeing how blonde it is, but I can assure you they're not. Vellous hair don't really grow to be that long either.

 

[ross007]

what do you guys think of needling before minoxidil? thanks

 

[masculineyourheart]

I think the general consensus is needling followed by whatever topical you're using.

Having a wet head helps with the pain factor. I figure I'll do it straight out of the shower and then apply my topical 10 minutes or so later.

I'd tried needling in the past with drawing pins but they would blunt too fast and end up hurting like a fiend all over my poor head for a few days after. I ordered one of the rollers from clear skincare the other day but the needle length is only .75mm... hopefully long enough to get that refreshing 'pop' sound.

Orin, how did you work out the concentrations for your lithium/caffeine topical?

 

[first]

So, anyone know of any acid that destroys skin but leaves hair standing? Or perhaps such a thing does not exist. I'm guessing very few dermabrasion-tools are made for scalp-use.

Did you consider phenol? Its commonly used in cosmetic surgery as an exfoliant and will cause the hair to rise (lower amounts are often used in shaving gels). Not sure if it will burn deep enough though but it is fairly potent.

There is a very interesting study about phenol and hair growth in particular.

Chemical peeling with 88% phenol was carried out on 142 sites of stable vitiligo (hairy-126, non hairy-16) and on 69 sites of alopecia areata (AA). After cleansing and defatting, phenol was applied on affected areas till a uniform frost appeared. On healing, all the lesions of vitiligo showed perifollicular pigmentation in hairy areas and perilesional repigmentation in non hairy areas. These were further treated with PUVA/PUVASOL. After the healing, 82.5% of hairy sites and 81.3% of non hairy sites showed repigmentation. In cases of AA, patients developed vellus hair. In AA, 72.5% had good regrowth and 27.5% had poor response. Side effects seen were hypopigmentation (58 AA), hyperpigmentation (11 AA), persistent erythema (42 vitiligo, 28 AA), demarcation lines (4 AA), secondary bacterial infection (2 vitiligo, 5 AA) and superficial scarring (2 vitiligo, 7 AA). The wounding action of phenol is useful to repigment the vitiligo patches and for induction of regrwoth of hair in alopecia areata.

So it should have a positive effect on hair even if nothing else is used, with the added ingredients from the patent you could really have something.

 

[Orin]

I didn't consider it because I didn't know it existed.

Thank you for the information. I'm alittle weary about the risks of vitiligo, which if I don't confuse it with something else, is blotchy whitening of the skin. Hopefully it is only temporary.

The fact that they got regrowth *might* actually be because they dermabraded the skin. Could be as simple as that, yet only now with better hindsight, we could draw parallels to Follica. Would be interesting to see other dermabrasion acids, and their involvement in hair growth. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a lot of studies with spontaneous hair-growth will start to make sense.


Good find, thanks.
I'll look it into, though when bulknutrition gets their act together and I get my caffeine, I will most likely do a mechanical dermabrasion (sandpaper and tightly taped together needles). Acid is a little scary, but it could be something to consider for the future.

EDIT: Just found this: The phenol peel is just carbolic acid and crotin oil. It turns out that when precisely mixed they will result in a non-full-thickness deep second-degree burn that will treat the wrinkles. The problem with the Phenol Peel is that it is very toxic to the cells that produce pigment. So the wrinkles improve at the expense of having lighter colored skin with a rather obvious line of demarcation.

Seems mechanical dermabrasion is still the way to go.

 

[first]

EDIT: Just found this: The phenol peel is just carbolic acid and crotin oil. It turns out that when precisely mixed they will result in a non-full-thickness deep second-degree burn that will treat the wrinkles. The problem with the Phenol Peel is that it is very toxic to the cells that produce pigment. So the wrinkles improve at the expense of having lighter colored skin with a rather obvious line of demarcation.

Seems mechanical dermabrasion is still the way to go.

However, in the study above it was used to treat vitiligo (with an 82% success rate). Regardless, as a white person I am not especially worried about vitiligo as it has to be quite severe in order to be noticable.

The results on hair were quite amazing though, after reading the full study. 72% showed excellent regrowth (60%-80%) within three treatments. Also, it is suitable for a DIY-kit, as the study itself says:

Phenol peel, as seen in this study is a simple office procedure with no complicated surgery or anaesthesia involved and also needs no expertised training. Discomfort and pain are minimum and hospitalisation or dressings are not required. It can be considered as one of the alternate method to repigment stable vitiligo specially on hairy areas where atleast 50-70% black hair is present and can also be used on non-hairy sites to induce perilesional pigmentation. Repeat peels can be done on these areas if required. One can cover large areas in multiple sittings. In AA also phenol can induce hair growth. Large areas can be treated with multiple sessions. Repeat peels can be undertaken on partially responded or not responded sites. It has been found to be very useful especially in children who fear the intralesional injections.

 

[Orin]

Oh it was *for* vitiligo? Sorry, I miss-read.

Still, it lightens the skin, making vitiligo-blotches smoother I suppose. I don't know if it's any worse than the pink tones mechanical dermabrasion leaves behind it. Mixing it together seems alittle iffy though, and the wikipedia-page is a pretty nightmarish read on nazi execution usage; though that may be something of a straw-man argumentation.

Yeah the % is impressive BUT what do they mean with regrowth? If it's 70-ish % increase in hair that is vellous and never goes anywhere, then I don't think it matters per se, though I guess that increase is more of a bonus, seeing that the WnT-signalling and the EGFR-inhibition is what really brings on results.

As a complete "what-if" - wouldn't it be marvellous if the acid created vellous hair, that when coupled with WnT and EGFR brought on a substanstial growth? WnT and EGFR alone grows hair.. the question is if the acid is different than mechanical dermabrasion, or laser-dermabrasion, in terms of growing hair on its own. I guess further studies might give some clues.