Follica - Good News!

[joemadrid]

Would you please describe how exactly do you intend to go with the procedure step by step.

Thnaks in advance.

Hi. I need a bit of more time to think about it. I am trying to obtain the drugs and a correct abrasion method. My dremel experiment was a disaster (in my leg). Wait a few weeks and I (and suppose others) will put pics and a guide, but first we need to wait a bit to understand all the variables involved.

 

[Orin]

Lol. Dremel.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but jesus christ be careful. I think that's a sound warning to anyone really. If you're not an adventurous spirit - leave it to others (like me) to pave your way.

Yes I think peels are the way to go IF they do not miss-color, bleach or in any way damage your existing hair. They also need to be able to make a superificial wounding that is deep enough to scab over at the 2-3 day and start flaking on the fourth or fifth. It is possible that peels do not produce the kind of wound we need, not so much in depth, but the very way they act. Glycolic Acid apparently loosens up the structure on the outermost skin, which then should peel away.

I have no idea if that is enough, or activates the same kind of mechanism in the skin that a wound does. Who knows, it's entirely possible that it doesn't, and that peels heavily triggers the body to repair itself, rather than regenerate.

As you can see there are about 1 million questions for every action, and this is exacly why science is so "low". And in regards to "beating" Follica - god no.
I doubt we ever will UNTIL the drugs they use get cheap enough for everyone to purchase. Until then we can only approximate. And sometimes and approximated solution, done enough time, can still give some nice results. Things very rarely come out perfect from the get-go, but rather mature over age.

It also doesn't help (or perhaps does help) that what we currently have available for hairloss is not very impressive. Because of how simply damaging the skin seem to signal sleeping follicles to start producing hair (this has been proven), and also that this effect can take place using anything from sandpapering/felt-wheel dermabrasion to strong peels (a study with phenol showed this), I not only think Follica is working on something that will turn out to be very impressive, but that we can utilize parts of it before it comes out.

At this point, it's not so much about out-running Follica, but rather trailing behind them and picking up the scraps they leave behind. It should be interesting times - right now there seem to be a lot of people independantly trying variants of this, and people with more money than me, ie, people who can afford stuff like Gefitnib. I'd say in about 2 months we should start hearing about those who are toying around with the "real deal", as I have expressed my belief before that what is really missing in most of those home-brew experiments, is a good EGFR-inhibitor.

I'm going to try a green tea extract, that has shown to have some EGFR-inhibition effect. But right now I'm lost in a sea of peel-sellers who can't give me a straight answer to anything. If I find something that seem to be well-tolerated by scalp and hair, I will of course post about it.

EDIT: checked my newly-dermabraded area a few minutes ago, and EITHER my hairline used to be depressingly lower, OR I have one new hair. It's quite short, so it's possible it is generated as opposed to awoken. It also stands some distance away from the rest, like 1 cm. In either case, it's still proof of concept more than anything else, as it is nowhere dense enough to make any cosmetic difference. But still, it's encouraging. It grows in a spot that has been bare since I was 17-18 or so. I'm guessing the EGFR-inhibitor plays a large role in density, or perhaps Follica are adding something new to the formula to adress density, as they no doubt know everything we slowly find out ourself already.

 

[harold]

As far as the abrasion front goes last night I went to work on the old scalp with this BBQ cleaning tool that I picked up a while ago. Theres a sentence I never thought I would type
Anyway this thing is basically like a big toothbrush only the bristles are thin steel wires. As I buzzed my hair anything that is brush like can be used for this purpose without totally destroying existing hair. It surprisingly didnt hurt much at all unless you go around the temples which sting like a b**ch. Because of that it seemed pretty ineffective so I put a bit of pressure into it. But not too much. Anyway the next thing I knew I was awash in a sea of dandruff. well not a sea maybe but there was a fair bit of dead white skin cells floating down. Parts of the scalp got red but nothing major. There was certainly no blood. Anyway afterwards I had a shower and applied minoxidil and that stung a lot whereas normally I feel nothing. So that gave me some confidence that I had done something. It doesnt hurt to the touch today. So somethig like this might be an alternative to sandpaper.
hh

 

[Orin]

Yeah it sounds like my ill-fitting "comb of needles", though that was kinda prone to go too deep. There is a problem with uniformity with both methods, as well you know. It's just so annoying to look at the temple-growth when I know I could get that, up where I already have hair.

Cept, I can't. Not in any way that seem to be easy to apply. Oh and some of these peels are apparently toxic. Like Salicylic Acid. So that's fun. Still, it will probably be what I'm going to order. It's not too expensive, and hopefully will not damage my existing hair. I just hate buying without knowing.

 

[harold]

Now if we could recreate the effect of plucking hairs without plucking then that would be something....

Arch Dermatol Res. 2003 Apr;295(1):33-7. Epub 2003 Feb 19.Click here to read Links
Plucking during telogen induces apoptosis in the lower part of hair follicles.
Matsuo K, Mori O, Hashimoto T.

Department of Dermatology, Kurume University School of Medicine, 67 Asahimachi, Kurume, 830-0011 Fukuoka, Japan.

Highly synchronized anagen development is achieved by depilation, which contrasts with spontaneous anagen development. The precise mechanism responsible for plucking-induced synchronization has not been explained. Plucking appears to mechanically injure or wound the follicle. We hypothesized that the injured hair follicle cells are removed by apoptosis, with an associated induction of synchronized anagen development. Female C57 BL/6 mice in which all the hair follicles of the back skin were in telogen were induced to enter anagen by depilation. Skin specimens from the back at 0 to 72 h after plucking were examined, and TUNEL staining and electrophoresis of isolated DNA were applied to substantiate the presence of apoptosis. Simultaneously, cell proliferation was also examined by bromodeoxyuridine (BrdU) incorporation. All methods of analysis revealed that plucking induced apoptosis of hair follicle cells in the dermal remnant, and there was a subsequent associated proliferative response that resulted in a highly synchronized anagen phase. From 12 to 36 h after plucking, hair follicle cells with weakly BrdU-positive nuclei were detected around the holes in the lower part of the follicle, which were induced by plucking. At 48 and 72 h, many cells with BrdU-positive nuclei were seen in the entire follicle, mainly in the bulb, as well as in the epidermis. Cell proliferation and apoptosis appeared to occur simultaneously after plucking. These findings mirror the events noted during the development of other organs in which the coordination of cell proliferation and apoptosis is essential for orderly restructuring events.

Basically it seems to damage the follicle itself and it triggers a state of cell proliferation where the damage is repaired. By timing this with the wounding of the skin it seems that one is able to get an extremely synergistic effect.
hh

 

[harold]

Hmmm. Not sure if this adds anything really. This abstract isnt particularly clear abut whether PKC-alpha is upregulated after plucking relative to non-plucked hairs or just in all anagen hairs.
hh

Clin Exp Dermatol. 2003 Jul;28(4):429-33.Click here to read Links
Overexpression of skin protein kinase C-alpha in anagen hair follicles during induced growth of mouse hair.
Li LF, Guo J, Gao ZF.

Department of Dermatology, The Third Hospital of Peking University, Beijing, China. zoonli@163.net

A role for protein kinase C (PKC)-alpha has been implicated in the growth of mouse hair. Topical application of PKC activators, hair plucking, allergic contact dermatitis and skin irritation can all enhance growth of mouse hair, and a significant increase in PKC-alpha level in whole mouse skin in mature anagen has been demonstrated in these processes. Overexpression of PKC-alpha in anagen hair follicles has also been reported in natural growth of mouse hair. It is known that overexpression of PKC-alpha is associated with the acceleration of cell growth. Therefore, we postulated that overexpression of PKC-alpha in mature anagen may relate to enhancement of hair growth. The distribution of PKC-alpha in hair follicles during induced growth of mouse hair has not previously been studied. In this study, hair growth in C57BL/6 mice was induced by plucking the telogen hairs on one side of the back. The undepilated contralateral side served as a control. Expression of PKC-alpha in hair follicles during the hair growth cycle induced was evaluated by immunohistochemistry using cryosections and a specific polyclonal anti-PKC-alpha immunoglobulin G (IgG) antibody. No PKC-alpha was detected in telogen hair follicles or in the hair follicles at 1 day post-depilation, when the induced hair cycle was in early anagen. At 4 days after plucking, when the induced hair cycle was in mid-anagen, intense staining for PKC-alpha was found in hair papillae. At 10 and 17 days after depilation, when the induced hair cycle was in mature anagen and early catagen, respectively, all outer root sheath (ORS) cells and outer connective sheaths of hair follicles were stained positive. Because no PKC-alpha was detected in telogen hair follicles in this study, down-regulation of PKC-alpha in early anagen could not be observed. However, consistent with our previous findings, overexpression of PKC-alpha was found in mid-anagen and mature anagen. As overexpression of PKC-alpha has been shown to be associated with acceleration of cell growth, our results support the notion that PKC-alpha may play an important role in growth of hair follicle cells in induced growth of hair. As PKC levels are known to increase in hyperglycaemia, overexpressed PKC-alpha in mature anagen hair follicles may be related to the putative function of the ORS in mobilizing glycogen stores for anagen growth.

 

[harold]

Maybe this is where tacrolimus or pimecrolimus might come in handy - they seem to be able to induce anagen and alter the ways that hair follicles respond to damage. While these type of drugs have had mixed success in humans especially with male pattern baldness they might synergise with the Follica method very well. I also remember reading recently that it was shown that these drugs work by stimulating stem cell populations to replicate more frequently or something similar. Basically the mechanism is not related to the immune system but is related to cell proliferation.
hh

Hair growth modulation by topical immunophilin ligands: induction of anagen, inhibition of massive catagen development, and relative protection from chemotherapy-induced alopecia.
Maurer M, Handjiski B, Paus R.

Department of Dermatology, Charité Hospital, Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, Germany.

Selected immunophilin ligands (IPLs) are not only potent immunosuppressants but also modulate hair growth. Their considerable side effects, however, justify at best topical applications of these drugs for the management of clinical hair growth disorders. Therefore, we have explored hair growth manipulation by topical cyclosporin A (CsA) and FK 506 in previously established murine models that mimic premature hair follicle regression (catagen) or chemotherapy-induced alopecia, two major pathomechanisms underlying human hair loss. We confirm that topical CsA and FK 506 induce active hair growth (anagen) in the back skin of C57BL/6 mice with all follicles in the resting stage (telogen) and show that both IPLs also inhibit massive, dexamethasone-induced, premature catagen development in these mice. Furthermore, we demonstrate that CsA and FK 506 provide relative protection from alopecia and follicle dystrophy induced by cyclophosphamide, possibly by favoring the dystrophic anagen pathway of follicle response to chemical damage. Although it remains to be established whether these IPLs exert the same effects on human hair follicles, our study provides proof of the principle that topical IPLs can act as potent manipulators of clinically relevant hair-cycling pathomechanisms. This strongly encourages one to explore the use of topical IPLs in the management of human hair growth disorders.

J Invest Dermatol. 2005 Jul;125(1):42-51.Click here to read Links
A guide to assessing damage response pathways of the hair follicle: lessons from cyclophosphamide-induced alopecia in mice.
Hendrix S, Handjiski B, Peters EM, Paus R.

Institute of Cell Biology and Neurobiology, Center of Anatomy, Charite, Humboldt University, Berlin, Germany. Sven.Hendrix@charite.de

After chemical, biological, or physical damage, growing (i.e. anagen) hair follicles develop abnormalities that are collectively called hair follicle dystrophy. Comparatively lower follicular damage induces the "dystrophic anagen" response pathway (=prolonged, dystrophic anagen, followed by severely retarded follicular recovery). More severe follicular damage induces the dystrophic catagen pathway (=immediate anagen termination, followed by a dystrophic, abnormally shortened telogen and maximally fast follicular recovery). In order to recognize these distinct damage response strategies of the hair follicle in a clinical or histopathological context, we have used the well-established C57BL/6J mouse model of cyclophosphamide-induced alopecia to define pragmatic classification criteria for hair follicle dystrophy (e.g., structure and pigmentation of the hair shaft, location, and volume of ectopic melanin granules, distension of follicular canal, number of TdT-mediated dUTP nick end labeling positive keratinocytes in the hair bulb; neural cell-adhesion molecule immunoreactivity and alkaline phosphatase activity as markers for the level of damage to the follicular papilla). These classification criteria for hair follicle dystrophy are useful not only in chemotherapy-induced alopecia models, but also in the screening of drug-treated or mutant mice in a highly standardized, accurate, sensitive, reproducible, easily applicable, and quantifiable manner.

 

[harold]

OK - here it is.

http://newswire.rockefeller.edu/?page=engine&id=702

and the abstract

Cell. 2008 Jan 25;132(2):299-310.Click here to read Links
NFATc1 balances quiescence and proliferation of skin stem cells.
Horsley V, Aliprantis AO, Polak L, Glimcher LH, Fuchs E.

Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Laboratory of Mammalian Cell Biology and Development, The Rockefeller University, New York, NY 10065, USA.

Quiescent adult stem cells reside in specialized niches where they become activated to proliferate and differentiate during tissue homeostasis and injury. How stem cell quiescence is governed is poorly understood. We report here that NFATc1 is preferentially expressed by hair follicle stem cells in their niche, where its expression is activated by BMP signaling upstream and it acts downstream to transcriptionally repress CDK4 and maintain stem cell quiescence. As stem cells become activated during hair growth, NFATc1 is downregulated, relieving CDK4 repression and activating proliferation. When calcineurin/NFATc1 signaling is suppressed, pharmacologically or via complete or conditional NFATc1 gene ablation, stem cells are activated prematurely, resulting in precocious follicular growth. Our findings may explain why patients receiving cyclosporine A for immunosuppressive therapy display excessive hair growth, and unveil a functional role for calcium-NFATc1-CDK4 circuitry in governing stem cell quiescence.

Interesting to see the BMP link. That ties it into the whole wnt/bmp thing. So it seems that cyclosporine/tacrolimus et al act downstream of this.

A caveat - it seems that at least some immune response is require for the hair growth activating property of wounding.

J Cell Biol. 2007 Mar 26;176(7):903-9.Click here to read Click here to read Links
ASK1-dependent recruitment and activation of macrophages induce hair growth in skin wounds.
Osaka N, Takahashi T, Murakami S, Matsuzawa A, Noguchi T, Fujiwara T, Aburatani H, Moriyama K, Takeda K, Ichijo H.

Laboratory of Cell Signaling, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, The University of Tokyo, Japan.

Apoptosis signal-regulating kinase 1 (ASK1) is a member of the mitogen-activated protein 3-kinase family that activates both c-Jun NH(2)-terminal kinase and p38 pathways in response to inflammatory cytokines and physicochemical stress. We report that ASK1 deficiency in mice results in dramatic retardation of wounding-induced hair regrowth in skin. Oligonucleotide microarray analysis revealed that expression of several chemotactic and activating factors for macrophages, as well as several macrophage-specific marker genes, was reduced in the skin wound area of ASK1-deficient mice. Intracutaneous transplantation of cytokine-activated bone marrow-derived macrophages strongly induced hair growth in both wild-type and ASK1-deficient mice. These findings indicate that ASK1 is required for wounding-induced infiltration and activation of macrophages, which play central roles in inflammation-dependent hair regrowth in skin.

So its possible that cyclosporine et al may help to grow hair in one way but interfere with the follica method in another. That is if they suppress the activation of macrophages in response to skin wounding. Havent looked this far.
hh

 

[Orin]

Well, when (if) we find something that works halfway decent, I wouldn't be too adverse to plucking some hair. I actually don't know if it has ever been discussed if you need to remove all the hair, or just some hair in the general area, as if the plucked hair send a signal to nearby hair to wake up. It is possible.

I theorized (without basis) before that needling, and perhaps deep needling, could simulate the effect of plucking. It was my pet-theory as to why I got any regrowth from needling. But then again, as we know by now, disturbing the scalp skin has the same or similar effect as plucking hair - hair goes into an active phase.

In "real life", I don't know how important it is to differentiate between every little step as there seem to be a fair bit of over-lapping. I think we can hold off heavy plucking until the last stages of development of this frankenstein of a procedure

If throwing in a good EGFR-inhibitor in there provides substantially more hair, then the next logical step would be to pre-pluck. Seems logical to me, though of course, if someone wants to go ahead and pluck now with the lithium-base then that would be good too. More data I suppose.

 

[superhl]

Last night, I applied sand paper to the temples. Then applied green tea and minoxil. Stung like a son of a gun. Question, shouldn't we sandpaper again maybe day three to prevent the skin from repairing to keep skin in a pre-embroylic state or a wounding phase. Also, where are you buying lithium?

 

[Spanish_boy]

Are already trying with people the method of follica. When will give results Cotsarelis on his patients?

 

[goata007]

Everyone Please READ THIS: The whole idea of abrasion/wounding with Follica or any similiar procedure is to cause Controlled Damage to the scalp/skin, which would Definitely heal Better & rejuvenate the Skin......Sand paper, Dremel, BBQ Cleaning brushes etc may wound the scalp BUT that isn't controlled wounding and most probably won't result in anything positive. That is also the reason why sunburned people peel BUT don't regrow hair or get better skin. On the other hand, dermabrasion & chemical peels have been proven to lead to a better skin!

I'm saying this because i see more & more people trying wounding & lithium but go all manly on their scalps with a sand paper. You guys are missing the key point of the procedure, controlled wounding leads to repair of the area which is good. where as any bad wound (which is what you'd get from sandpaper etc) would lead to body going in survival mode and just closing the wound up = No/Minimal results!

here is a link to alt.baldspot post where a guy mentions some bald guy regrowing hairs after a facial chemical peel.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....e pattern baldness+peel+hair#283bb34c11b1a0a2

As of chemical peel vs dermabrasion...again I'd say go with a chemical peel they are best DIY stuff. And amongst all the peels go for Salicyclic acid (10-20%), it would do two things that dermbrasion/sandpapering etc can't do:

i) remove the upper layers of the skin uniformely and NO it won't damage any hair
ii) penetrate the pores and clean them up thoroughly.

if I were doing it, I would also use a good Copper Peptide - starting few days before the procedure and resuming when the skin has stopped peeling. Copper peptide will greatly help rejuvenate the skin (fat layer, water layer, blood vessels etc) and will also enlarge the follicle. Again, you need to create a good environment for the follicle to grow!

Note: Don't pick/scrape the skin while it's peeling - it will lead to microscopic (if not visible) scars! again ruins the whole point of wounding in first place. Suggestion: read up on chemical peels and how they are done and what aftercare procedure is, you have to be very carefull otherwise your skin won't end up in any better condition and it'll all be just a waste of time.

Orin, you mentiond the activation of stem cells in the buldge area vs plucking. When you abrade your skin the stem cells move towards the surface of the skin to help healing, but when you pluck the hair the stem cells move downwards - towards the base of the follicle to regrow hair. I did mention that earlier that plucking hair puts the follicle straight back into anagen phase, and haraldo has also posted a study to confirm that. Again, if I were to do it i'd only pluck minitaurized hair from the temples only because we're just experimenting yet. Also, especially pluck the hair towards the back end of your temples/the border areas. Because i've read this several times that when body rejuvenates/repairs it gets it's clues from nearby areas, so if you pluck hair from the border areas of your temples there is a strong possibility that having healthy hair closeby may increase the efficacy of the experiment.

 

[Orin]

Acually, if you use sandpaper lightly enough, the actual damage is equal to that of for example a TCA burn. They surely look the same. The point is taken though, as if we (people interested in this) are to get anything other than 15-20 hairs here and there, and only in areas that are relatively hairless, then yes we have to collectively move to something that can be incorporated into something managable, and doable over the entire scalp. And as fine as sandpaper can be, it's still - as those who have tried it can attest to - tricky to get an even wounding.

I've read up a lot about peels by now, and tried my best to skewer retailers for answers by email, and I agree - Salicylic acid in 20% and perhaps even up to 30% (depending on .. well a myriad of factors) seem the way to go. Atleast as a first step. It's cheap too, so that's good. There's a slight risk of "salicylism", which is a toxic reaction to salicylic acid. Though it's pretty rare, or so I've read. It's also nothing worse than headache and vomiting and such, it's not like phenol.

Also, anectodally, people (atleast claim to) have gotten regrowth from severe sunburns. Because it follows the same basic mechanism of scalp distruption. Though again, for trying to make this into something predictable and low-risk, one should probably not use such exotic ways of lightly damaging their scalp. Not trying to be a smarty-pants or anything, just saying.

I also think - hope - most people are careful enough, and have their wits with them to understand that using sandpaper and similar tools for anything but very localized experiments is just ridiculous. It's just not do-able.

Oh and another thing about sallicylic acid - it's anti-inflammatory, so using this peel over for example glycolic peels and TCA peels, apparently results in less chance of inflammations, scarring and such. Less after-care in other words, which is good, as putting on lotions on a scalp can be tricky without it looking ghastly.

Apart from Sallicylic peels, there are certain combinations of peels that supposedly create similar effects as the deeper peels, but with less risks. "Jessner's peel" is one of them, and there are others, but I'm just dipping my toes into all this, as I'm sure a lot of you are as well.

Thank you though for setting me straight about the plucking; I did not know the stem-cell mechanism of plucking vs piercing the skin, and what precise mechanism it followed. Though you seem to be of the opinion that I alluded to, that plucking a few choice hair is enough to "signal" the surrounding area, as opposed to having to pluck all the hair in the area.

This behavior of learning from their surrounding is probably why most of my regrowth from these experiments have been close to already existing hair, though there are some lone hairs here and there. It probably means that people with very little hair left will have somewhat of an up-hill struggle, though I guess as hair come in, it will be easier and easier.

If anything - in theory - it should be possible to "pull" growth from the sides and back of your head, if you find no success on the top.

 

[harold]

Everyone Please READ THIS: The whole idea of abrasion/wounding with Follica or any similiar procedure is to cause Controlled Damage to the scalp/skin, which would Definitely heal Better & rejuvenate the Skin......Sand paper, Dremel, BBQ Cleaning brushes etc may wound the scalp BUT that isn't controlled wounding and most probably won't result in anything positive. That is also the reason why sunburned people peel BUT don't regrow hair or get better skin. On the other hand, dermabrasion & chemical peels have been proven to lead to a better skin!

I dont know what you mean when you talk about controlled wounding. The reason people dont get better skin after sunburn is because the free radicals and rultraviolet radiation play merry hell with your DNA. It has nothing to do with the sunburn being "uncontrolled" as opposed to controlled in a solarium. UV radiation is actually mentioned in the patent as one way to damage/stimulate the epidermis.
There is a difference between gouging yourself with a dremel - if you damage the dermis you will cause scarring. But you would have a hard time trying to accomplish that with sandpaper or my trusty BBQ brush.

I'm saying this because i see more & more people trying wounding & lithium but go all manly on their scalps with a sand paper. You guys are missing the key point of the procedure, controlled wounding leads to repair of the area which is good. where as any bad wound (which is what you'd get from sandpaper etc) would lead to body going in survival mode and just closing the wound up = No/Minimal results!

Dermabrasion as used in the actual experiments is essentially just sandpaper being spun round really fast. There is no big distinction here at least as far as I can see.
hh

 

[first]

Last night, I applied sand paper to the temples. Then applied green tea and minoxil. Stung like a son of a gun. Question, shouldn't we sandpaper again maybe day three to prevent the skin from repairing to keep skin in a pre-embroylic state or a wounding phase. Also, where are you buying lithium?

As I wrote in another post. EGF (Growth Factor) causes new skin cells to grow. With a high amount of EGF, the skin cells around the hair follicles will continue to grow, eventually making the space for the hair follicle so narrow that the hair is forced to become vellus hair. End the end, the skin becomes completely smooth and no hair will be able to grow at all, this may be something you want on most places of your body but definitely not on your head.

A very low amount of EGF will have the opposite effect however, it can even cause the new cells to grow into hair follicles instead of skin cells (under the very right conditions).

Thus, if you are indeed using an EGF inhibitor, you do want the skin to repair itself. Filing the top layers of skin of (which have clogged the hair follicle with all the skin cells due to EGF) and then applying an EGF inhibitor as it heals, should cause the hair follicle free space during the healing process. With a strong enough inhibitor it should cause the vellus hair to become terminal once again and may cause some of the new cells (stem cells) to turn into hair follicles instead of skin cells. So it works in two ways, "awakening" (as some like to call it) the old follicles and creating new ones.

Which is why I think that an EGF(r) inhibitor is the key component in the Follica procedure.

 

[Orin]

I just want to add that sallicylic acid peel is (as far as I know) a very effective cleaner of sebaceous oil, which is one of the reasons it is used as an acne-treatment in lower doses. At higher doses, it also peels the skin.

It easily penetrates the skin and goes into pores - including ones that hair sprout from. So in essence it should dissolve both oil and (at peel-strenght) skin-cells along the hair.

Provided it creates the required wounding area that is needed to generate hair, it should perhaps more-so than other peels, help to make room around the follicles. I personally hold very little regard to the whole "clogged pores causes hairloss", but in this case it's just a side-effect of the peel that may turn out to work in our favor.

It will at the very least not hurt the procedure in any way that I can tell. This is all "on paper" though. Don't know till we tried it how well it works.

EDIT: I also want to say that adding caffeine to the "mix" was certainly not a bad idea. Because I did not make a hair-count from my first to my second dermabrasion, I can only go by looks, and if I had to venture a guess, I would be leaning towards caffeine being helpful in awakening hairs. Still too early to say anything about regenerated hair though. Also, if I am not misstaken, I think I did pluck the hair before I dermabraded. I only plucked hair that absolutely were not going anywhere, like hair barely more mature than peach-fuzz.
Whichever it was that helped, I would say this time I got better results than the last. The dermabraded area seem to be more more uniformly covered than the last time.

Bit by bit I guess

 

[goata007]

I dont know what you mean when you talk about controlled wounding. The reason people dont get better skin after sunburn is because the free radicals and rultraviolet radiation play merry hell with your DNA. It has nothing to do with the sunburn being "uncontrolled" as opposed to controlled in a solarium. UV radiation is actually mentioned in the patent as one way to damage/stimulate the epidermis.
There is a difference between gouging yourself with a dremel - if you damage the dermis you will cause scarring. But you would have a hard time trying to accomplish that with sandpaper or my trusty BBQ brush.

What you're talking about, the assault on DNA, is the long term effect of sunburns/excessive sun exposure. What i'm talking about is the rejuvenation effect e.g. your skin just won't improve after a sunburn even though it causes peeling & redness on the other hand, Chemical peels like TCA also mimic a sunburn BUT do so in a controlled manner i.e. they are designed for that purpose, so essentialy your skin gets sunburned, peels and gets better!

Note: People who are sunburned often get chemical peels to restore their skins - something you can't do with abrasion!

There is also a FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE between Abrasion (Dermabrasion, Sandpaper, dremel) VS Chemical Peels. Abrasion Only works on top of the skin, in that it removes the dead skin cells which get replaced by newer cells - thus improving the LOOK of the skin. Chemical Peels rejuvenate the skin, they work at a deeper level, thus improving the health of the scalp which in our case is a must.

My thoughts on Sandpapering: If you do it gently, it's just going to make your scalp smoother by leveling the skin surface & removing dead skin cells which will be replaced by newer cells and you'd have very nice scalp to look at. If you do it a bit harshly, and see blood - you've over done it! and if you don't takecare of it afterwards it WILL lead to microscars - not good!

Usually people who go in for a dermabrasion, do so because it can quickly remove light wrinkes & improve the texture of the skin. But it's a known fact that if you want to reverse (to a certain extent) sun damage, the only viable solutions are chemical peels & copper peptides. Even Dr. Pickart said that Copper Pepptides work best when combined with Hydroxy Acids (light peels).

Btw, I did ask Dr. Pickart about the scalp peels + copper peptides and he said people who tried it didn't see any results, so there's that. But he didn't mention anything about the strength of the peels, and my guess is that those were light (surface level) peels and that's why they guys didn't see any result. In my last post, I mentioned a guy on alt.baldspot who told the story of a guy who regrew some of his hair after a facial chemical peel from a spa/dermatologist - I'm quite sure that guy went for something more than a superficial peel, otherwise he could have just done it in his home.

 

[Orin]

I might be miss-understanding, but it seems you're saying that peels are what we need, but at the same time, that peels will not result in any regrowth. All I know is that the last time I did any dermabrasion (or abrasion, I'm not using any specific terminology other than "I hurt my skin somewhat"), it healed very quickly, and as far as I can tell, pretty much exacly as I've seen TCA peels heal. Crusting at the third or fourth day, and then scabbing, and not a trace of it after about 10 days. A week later 15 or so hairs start to emerge.

Also - you don't know what that guy who regrew hair from a face-peel was using. At this point we just don't know how light or deep a damage you need to spur regrow/faciliate neogenesis. In some people kicking old hair into action is all it takes for a satisfactory result, and for that purpose, it seems (as far as I've experienced it) very light damage is all you need. It is entirely possible that an at-home peeling solution is sufficient.

I checked out the blog/thread you provided and it was light on details. You can do pretty substantial peels at home (anything up to a good medium peel is readily available online - the same stuff used professionally). It's the exact same thing one would do at a spa, save for the deep peels, which, as far as I've read, you can only do once in a life-time as it is so substantial.

And if peels prove ineffective, there is always light dermabrasion in form of the now dreaded sandpaper. I did it - at home. It might not be truly new hair, but the result is the same thing. Hair on my head. Again, I'm just going by pictures and my sandpapering looked tame compared to the middle-of-peel-process-pictures some women have posted online as examples of a medium-peel.

I ordered a peel from one of the sites you guys recommended. I guess we'll find out how well peels mimick the sandpapering in a month or so, when I've returned from my vacation and I can start trying crazy crap again. At the very least, it should kick (in theory) kick hair back into action as well as light sandpapering has done.

 

[goata007]

I might be miss-understanding, but it seems you're saying that peels are what we need, but at the same time, that peels will not result in any regrowth.

Dr. Pickart said that, the thing is we don't know if the guys he was talking about used very light peels or medium peels. Also, we are using lithium, EGF etc to help the cause, the guys he was talking about probably didn't use anything - so no results. Btw, after searching for a while, I can't find a single case of men discussing/trying peels so I honestly don't know which guys Dr. Pickart was talking about.

On the other hand, there is a guy on regrowth.com who has been doing laser therapy and recently started scalp peel, and he said that he's sure the growth he is seeing is from peels. What I'm saying is that for maximum hair growth, you have to create the most favorable environment for follicles. This is where the peels come-in, they somewhat restore the skin to a better state which is necessary.

Crusting at the third or fourth day, and then scabbing, and not a trace of it after about 10 days. A week later 15 or so hairs start to emerge.

See this is where I'm skeptical, sunburns peel too right? and usually they heal too - leaving a normal looking skin but sunburns take their toll. The thing with balding skin (especially temples) is that like face they get a lot of sun etc, and you can probably already feel temple skin being a lot different then other areas. So yes, it will heal after sandpaper...but would it necessarily get better?

And if peels prove ineffective, there is always light dermabrasion in form of the now dreaded sandpaper. I did it - at home. It might not be truly new hair, but the result is the same thing. Hair on my head. Again, I'm just going by pictures and my sandpapering looked tame compared to the middle-of-peel-process-pictures some women have posted online as examples of a medium-peel.

Again, the point I'm making is that peel may not necessarily lead to more hair BUT they will improve the scalp. And I think that is a critical factor with hairloss treatments. You've probably heard this phrase tosses around, that once you see shiny scalp the chances of regrowth a minimal. Why do you think thats the case? I think it's because the scalp looses water/fat layer etc making it harder for just drugs to regrow anything.

Word of Advice: Please don't try medium/deep peels, they are not to be taken lightly. Stick with Salicylic (preferred for oily skin) or glycolic peel and increase concentration as you feel comfortable. Everyone's skin is different, so don't just put 30% peel on your scalp because someone else on the board said it works. try with 10% and see what that does, if acceptable level of peeling, then 3-4 weeks later try 20%. Also, definitely look into Copper Peptides they are quite cheap and several studies have shown them to be very effective in reverersing skin damage.

 

[Orin]

I might be miss-understanding, but it seems you're saying that peels are what we need, but at the same time, that peels will not result in any regrowth.

Dr. Pickart said that, the thing is we don't know if the guys he was talking about used very light peels or medium peels. Also, we are using lithium, EGF etc to help the cause, the guys he was talking about probably didn't use anything - so no results. Btw, after searching for a while, I can't find a single case of men discussing/trying peels so I honestly don't know which guys Dr. Pickart was talking about.

On the other hand, there is a guy on regrowth.com who has been doing laser therapy and recently started scalp peel, and he said that he's sure the growth he is seeing is from peels. What I'm saying is that for maximum hair growth, you have to create the most favorable environment for follicles. This is where the peels come-in, they somewhat restore the skin to a better state which is necessary.

[quote:11iutqu0]Crusting at the third or fourth day, and then scabbing, and not a trace of it after about 10 days. A week later 15 or so hairs start to emerge.

See this is where I'm skeptical, sunburns peel too right? and usually they heal too - leaving a normal looking skin but sunburns take their toll. The thing with balding skin (especially temples) is that like face they get a lot of sun etc, and you can probably already feel temple skin being a lot different then other areas. So yes, it will heal after sandpaper...but would it necessarily get better?

Well now I'm just completly confused. Are you saying that you're skeptical that I got regrowth? It got "better" in the sense that I now have about 15 or so hairs in an area (temple) that I have been bald at for the last 2 years. I can fully take account for how "dermabrasion" has effected my temples, but all in all, it does not seem to have done much damage. And everyone's needs are different. As I've already said before, sandpapering is not a viable option, but served as an important stepping stone. Of all the things I can worry about, I would not worry that my temples have taken irreversible damage.

And if peels prove ineffective, there is always light dermabrasion in form of the now dreaded sandpaper. I did it - at home. It might not be truly new hair, but the result is the same thing. Hair on my head. Again, I'm just going by pictures and my sandpapering looked tame compared to the middle-of-peel-process-pictures some women have posted online as examples of a medium-peel.

Again, the point I'm making is that peel may not necessarily lead to more hair BUT they will improve the scalp. And I think that is a critical factor with hairloss treatments. You've probably heard this phrase tosses around, that once you see shiny scalp the chances of regrowth a minimal. Why do you think thats the case? I think it's because the scalp looses water/fat layer etc making it harder for just drugs to regrow anything.

That may be right, but again... I think this exacly illustrates new knowledge vs old knowledge. It's only since the last 4 months that we've (as a collective We, the internet-forums in general) known about the possibility of generating new hair. After that there's been an avalanche of information that have made previously anecdotal "odd" stories seem plausible. That study that Elaine (don't know her last name; she's part of the Follica-group) did with damage to the skin and its curious effect of activating sleeping hair. In this case we're not talking generating NEW hair, but merely waking hair. In my opinion, this is the *base-line* of what we will accomplish with peels. And that is - to me - reassuring, as I've gotten very encouraging regrowth that couldn't possibly (because of time-lines) be new hair.

If everything else fails, what I can take away from all this, is that doing a peel every-other month or so would (in theory, and based on local, small-scale sandpaper experiments) be a very good way to keep hair-follicles active. Actually giving me completly new hair is, on top of awakening old hair, truly extraordinary.

Word of Advice: Please don't try medium/deep peels, they are not to be taken lightly. Stick with Salicylic (preferred for oily skin) or glycolic peel and increase concentration as you feel comfortable. Everyone's skin is different, so don't just put 30% peel on your scalp because someone else on the board said it works. try with 10% and see what that does, if acceptable level of peeling, then 3-4 weeks later try 20%. Also, definitely look into Copper Peptides they are quite cheap and several studies have shown them to be very effective in reverersing skin damage.[/quote:11iutqu0]

It seems we're talking in circles now. I never advocated putting on medium peels as a general advice. I thought I was pretty clear in that you should use your wits and try out for yourself what your skin can, and cannot handle (I made an example of this when I spoke of how I first approached dermabrasion in general - I tried it several times on my body before doing it on my head - for obvious reasons). I ordered 30% of sallicylic acid because it's economical, and because I can dillute it.

I think at some point - if we're going to have a discussion about all this - we have to take for granted that we're all responsible adults with individual needs and cares. I'd like to keep discussion open, with ideas flowing, and rather not waste so much time declaring disclaimers at every turn. This is the rough part of figuring this thing out, if it is to be figured out. Streamlining, and taking everyone into consideration comes later.

Or maybe I have too high hopes that people do their homework and take measures before submitting themself. I don't know.


EDIT: Wow. I *really* don't know how to use the quote-system of replying. I hope you can decipher what was said by whom. All in all, I think we both share the same sentiments, though the whole communication part of it has been somewhat tangled, as often happens on the net.

People should take care when being pioneers, as we seem to be on this forum, and try to educate themself as much as possible. And we also don't know exacly the outcomes of what we're trying, until we've tried them. Atleast that's what I think we both mean.