Follica - Good News!

[Orin]

The side-effects on any of these drugs are probably a moot point as they're only to be used for 10 days or so. And most of the bad side-effects, like large doses of lithium and Avara, are due to internal use. This is all topical, atleast for me.

I'm having so-so trouble getting a hold of TCA - seems like there' s a lot of accusations flying, directed at most of the "big sites" (most of them are glorified ebay-sites) for supposedly not selling the strenghts they are advertising... I'm trying to get a good grip on what it should cost, and as far as I can tell, 1 ounce of TCA should cost around 45 dollars, though it can be "had" for as low as 10. It's actually alarming how unprofessional these sites look. That doesn't always tell you something fruitful about the quality of the product, but still.

I tried to order at inkbusters.com, but apparently (due to some 9/11 thing) they can't ship outside the US. If any of you find a site, preferably inside the european union, that sells TCA, I'd greatly appreciate it if you would share. Or if you know a site that you know delivers what they sell.

 

[jakeb]

I got my TCA from platinumskincare.com

 

[Orin]

Thanks for the tip.

Damn they're pricy though!

Well, I guess they're the good stuff though. Some of the sites that sell 100% TCA for like 30 dollars don't even have as much as a snippet of warning or really any information at all, about the dangers of applying 100% straight to your face. That's incredibly irresponsible, though it might be softened by my suspicion that what they are selling is a heavily watered down solution.

I'm kinda aiming for 25%... too bad that site doesn't sell 50% solutions. Would make economical sense rather than buying an expensive 30% solution.

Are you doing just the peel or a peel and lithium+whatnots?

credit to the site for teaching me something about layers.. my game-plan would have been to try to apply most of it all at the same time, but now it seems that it would be easier to get an even distribution if you make smaller patches one at a time.

 

[goata007]

Orin, one thing you may want to consider is that TCA peels require usage of sunblock for several months. However, SA peels don't, so you may wanna use that instead.

Also, when you grew those 30 hairs...were those from dermabrasion or needling? and did you use anything else i.e. lithium, oral finas, minoxidil etc?

 

[Orin]

As far as I know it's sunblock for about 30 days or so. And it doesn't have anything to do with the type of peel you use - it's the depth of the peel, and the sensitivity of the new skin. I don't think it's much of a problem, as the scalp is still fairly covered by hair, and if you don't have any hair, then you should probably always wear sunscreen anyway.
I also rarely get out in the sun as I'm very sensitive to the sun. I get extremly tired after 2-3 hours.

The hairs I got were probably a combination of needling and dermabrading + lithium, which I did once (the dermabrasion, the needling went on for weeks and still are). It's possible I got some of it in places I cannot see, on top of my head and such, but the temple is the only place I can observe it. To contrast, the other temple did not respond at all to needling, though the dermabraded one did so slightly, but really got much of the regrowth after I dermabraded.

The "new" hair started growing about a week or two after I had started healing from my dermabrasion, which makes them awoken hair, not generated hair, which, if any, came later. Since they came at different paces, and there are a lot of unknown factors in this. I can't say, and won't say, that the hairs that I got later on were evidence of completly new hair-follicles.
For all I know they were just late to the party. In the end it doesn't really matter, as the result is the same. I did the dermabrasion in the middle of april I think, and they're still going strong. So I guess that's good. Another hair-cut and they will be indistinguishable from the rest of the hair, cept' for maybe their placement.

Everytime I see my reflection in something, I look at them, and unless you really scrutinize them, they appear to be of the normal diameter that frontal scalp hair usually is, which is slightly thinner than hair from the back for example. At this point I really have to hold another hair up beside the new ones to really tell any difference. They're somewhat unevenly spaced out, and because the area is so heavily thinned (almost bare), they provide no real coverage in direct light, but they're clearly visible in any kind of off-light situation.

 

[goata007]

are you on any dht inhibitor or minoxidil?

 

[first]

What exactly is the chemical advantage of using lithium? Any studies?

 

[goata007]

What exactly is the chemical advantage of using lithium? Any studies?

lithium mimics WNT Signalling...which is linked with hair growth.

Also, I've been reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermal_growth_factor

Apparently, there isn't any downside to using epiderminal growth factor. If anything it decreases the risk of skin cancer! And I was looking at one of EGF inhibitor drugs and one of its side effects was hair growth.

 

[Orin]

I was on dutasteride for 2 years. As of 7 months, I'm on proscar. It's mostly an economical question, though I can't deny that the shift to proscar has brought with it a definitive change in sexual drive. Dutasteride is good for what it is, but it's pretty depressing that people in their early 20's have to feel like they need to be close to asexual to keep some hair on their head.

I'm pretty sure a minimum of DHT-inhibiting/binding drugs are a requirement for this to work, though I realize it's presumptuous of me to say so.
I also think that it's foolish to think that DHT-inhibition alone will result in any miracles.. I'm convinced you need a good re-grower to see any difference. Passive protection can only do so much. It's my hope that the peelings will take care of that.
Other than that, I have no answers, and my results are (hopefully) not anything spectacular or mysterious. It's my sincere wish that something akin to Follica will be good enough to have us not waste our time on forums such as these.
Last time I heard, Follica is tangled up in FDA struggles that might push them well into 2010. Don't know if there is any merit to it, but the good news is that (regardless) their patents and data have provided a pretty good understanding of how to do something analogous at home.
It wouldn't surprise me that when they finally roll around, people have been doing their watered-down procedure for years.

 

[Shooter]

Hey Orin, you give lots of good info, thanks.

Can you elaborate on your recent comment about Follica? Where did you hear about their FDA troubles? Weren't they supposed to have a straightforward route to market?

 

[goata007]

Someone asked Rassman this question last year about gefitinib:

"Have you ever heard of a drug called Gefitinib? P.A. Burt observed a few years ago that a patient treated with the drug who had been bald for many years experienced sudden robust hair growth. I know of one other anecdotal report in which a patient experienced terminal hair growth at the tip of his nose. Aside from this, I’m not able to find any other infromation on the drug. I wonder what its safety profile and mechanism of action would be, especially when administered concomitantly with finasteride. Cool, huh?"

Note the guy mentions "bald for many years". That's really exiciting, I was just talking about EGF inhibitor on another forum that how over expression of EGF could make it difficult for hair to grow and inhibiting it, followed by abrasion could actually help follicles.

There is a possibility that the bald guy probably shaved his head quite often, and when he got on gefitinib, he created a good environment for follicles to make terminal hair. Btw, People who don't know about gefitinib, this is one of the drugs used in Follica procedure


http://www.baldingblog.com/2007/07/27/g ... rows-hair/

 

[Orin]

I don't see how that is really news.. he's just recycling what is already known; someone grew hair on the tip of their nose with gefitnib.

It's not a coincidence Follica is using the drug - its' only purpose is to be a EGFR-inhibitor. It's unfortunate it's so prohibitively expensive though.

I assume (and hope) that the price of it (and variants of it) will plummet in a few years. It's a *very* new drug. Most drugs have a steep (price) negative curve after release. Hopefully this one will be no different.

 

[Shooter]

Hey Orin, I commented on Page 35 but I'm pretty sure you didn't see it.

You mentioned Follica got caught up in FDA problems, and I was wondering if you could elaborate. Where did you get that information? Wasn't their path to market SUPPOSED to be straightforward?

Thanks alot

 

[Orin]

well, to tell you the truth, I was just recycling what I gathered from a very long thread over at hairsite.com. Again, no idea what merit it has. I'm sure there are some economical interest in having Follica go through the full FDA treatment.

I still think it would take about 3 years or so from now, until we have something official from Follica.

 

[goata007]

I don't see how that is really news.. he's just recycling what is already known; someone grew hair on the tip of their nose with gefitnib.

Well, the guy asked this question last year...well before anyone on hair forums started talking about this stuff. Also, in his question he mentions that the incident is several years old and the guy clearly has no idea of Follica. So that sort of proves that EGF inhibition could potentially work very well to cure baldness.

What I really found interesting was Rassman's response, clearly he had no idea about this drug's possible method of action and found the news surprising.

 

[joemadrid]

Quick question

Is possible to dissolve ARAVA pills in water/ethanol/propylene glycol mix without harming the compound?

 

[Orin]

Since Follica is using the drug, you'd have to assume it can be used in an alcohol container. The main concern that I've caught, is that Arava is an EGFR-inhibitor, but indirectly, when digested. So it's possible the effect we want doesn't occur when applied on the skin under any conditions.

 

[Noobie]

I have been reading this thread for a while now. Well since it started. I have several thoughts on the issues at hand. But before that I would like to thank those that have put so much time and effort into this and have shared that information with all.

My first thought, a list of websites and products bought through these websites should be posted. That way if new places are found that sell those products cheaper the post can be updated with this new information.

Second, A step by step of the procedures should be written out on a post. From mixing the compounds to the actual act of applying it to the individuals head. Why? So that if new ideas come up or different methods provide better results we all know. Documentation of what is done and how is our biggest tool in perfecting this before it is commercially available.

Third, PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES! I can't stress this enough. I have seen so many posts about how x works or y works but never have pictures been provided. Before and after pictures are priceless in this type of situations. Also during the procedure this would help tremendously in showing how to do the steps correctly.

Fourth, since the cost of some of the medication is so high maybe we should have a way of dividing the cost with multiple individuals? For example someone buys 30 pills of Gefitinib and sells the rest to an individual that needs them, in effect splitting the cost. This is a way out there idea since no one truly knows anyone else on here. (Hell I think this maybe my 4th post on the forum even though I have been reading it for years.) Some of the cost is not chump change for some.

Well I'm sure I have bored most of you to tears by now, but I thought I would at least give some input on the subject at hand. Good work and continue to do what you are doing. :mrgreen:

 

[jakeb]

It might be reasonable to split the cost of gefitnib if we could figure out how much each person needs. If we're making a topical that requires 2-3 tabs a person (not saying that's accurate, i have no idea) the cost could work out to something manageable per person.

People have done this sort of thing with ordering RU from Faith Eagle in China.

Do we have any idea regarding solution percentages?

 

[first]

It might be reasonable to split the cost of gefitnib if we could figure out how much each person needs. If we're making a topical that requires 2-3 tabs a person (not saying that's accurate, i have no idea) the cost could work out to something manageable per person.

People have done this sort of thing with ordering RU from Faith Eagle in China.

Do we have any idea regarding solution percentages?

I do not think you need an especially high amount. Depending on the area in question, around 1g should be sufficient (this is, of course, just a guess).

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/100 ... _45_2.html are selling 1-10g of Canertinib but I am not sure what they are charging.