Frontal thinning on Avodart

[ajax]

I could have sworn I had seen a article or some research actually stating that dutasteride was the most effective treatment if you were wanting frontal re-growth. Its the main reason I decided to start taking it. However this was maybe a year ago and I havn't got the sudy/article saved anywhere, but am sure I read it on this site. Anyone else see this before?

 

[CCS]

I really wish you would find it. I really need to know the answer to that, since all my loss is in the front.

 

[nervx]

Since dutasteride is stronger it likely has a greater effect on the front of the head. Now finasteride/dutasteride can cause shedding, and if you do end up shedding you'll probably lose more hair in the front while on dutasteride. In the long run though when/if the hair grows back results overall(front/back) should be better when on dutasteride.

I've looked for dutasteride studies before and the only ones i've come across show slighlty increased risk of sides and better results in hair growth compared to finasteride. I've never seen one showing hair results being worse than finasteride.

 

[Bryan]

I've looked for dutasteride studies before and the only ones i've come across show slighlty increased risk of sides and better results in hair growth compared to finasteride. I've never seen one showing hair results being worse than finasteride.

There's only one. ONE. And that's Glaxo's trial.

Bryan

 

[ajax]

I wish I could remember where I saw the study which said it was the best for frontal growth.

It was defo on this website, but i'm sure it wasnt a forum post. Did this site ever publish the results of the glaxo trial? I'm sure thats where I read it.

 

[CCS]

since bryan said GSK did not test the front, I suspect he would said you missread that study.

Of course I don't know why GSK would not test the front, since they would get a good advantage over propecia if they could say it grew more hair in front. I still don't know why GSK tested dutasteride head to head with proscar instead of propecia when the test was done in 2002 and propecia was on the market since 1996.

 

[iamnaked]

Why would dutasteride make frontal thinning worse? It's a 5AR inhibitor which is better at the job than finasteride, which nobody is accusing of the same sh*t. f***'s sake, people.

 

[Felk]

Why would dutasteride make frontal thinning worse? It's a 5AR inhibitor which is better at the job than finasteride, which nobody is accusing of the same $#iT. f***'s sake, people.

Finasteride is a different drug, though. And im sure people do accuse it of doing it - posts about "finasteride sheds" abound here.

You're right, iam, it doesnt make any sense. However there really are quite a few anecdotal reports of it doing this. PowerSam had it happen to him, and he has no idea why, apart from taking a very high "loading" dose. Michael-someone and some other dude (check the shedding post in the dutasteride. forum) are two others, one has pics for proof.

Over on HLH they were discussing it too, coming up with some theory as to why it happened.

Bryan said he too has seen the reports of it happening, but doesn't know what to think about it.

I just hope it wont happen if you're taking dutasteride only a few times a week.

 

[CCS]

It is not a question of "will it happen" but "how much". If you are one of the 87% of people propecia works on the back for (or a smaller percentage it works on the front for) you don't get a permenant shed. Even the average responder loses hair after a few years. It is just a question of how much and where. Some people get sheds from propecia and grow it back.

As for dutasteride, 0.1mg per day grows just as much as 5mg finasteride per day. The study I saw showed that the higher the dose above 0.1mg/day, the better it worked in back and the worse it worked in front. It did not say there was a shed. It just said it regrew less hair in front. So if you were just maintaining with finasteride, that drop in effectiveness could be enough no longer maintain. If you are the shedding type, you may oscillate downwards. If you are not the shedding type, you will just gradually lose hair. But most people gain hair on high doses of dutasteride, just not as much as on proscar in the front.

0.5mg/day regrew less hair than proscar in the back, so clearly that is not the ideal dose. Propecia "was not tested in the back", yet how do we know that "propecia is less effective in the front than the back"? Purely from word of mouth? Did merk poll people on HairLossTalk.com years ago? I think they did test stuff but only publically report the best results. I suspect the study I found was less public, though I wonder why I'd be able to find it at all if they did not want it public.

The question, is, what DHT inhibition rate, both of 5ar1 and 5ar2, is optimal for the front. We don't know. We know that 0.1mg dutasteride is the same as 5mg finasteride and is better than 0.05mg dutasteride and 0.5mg dutasteride. So the maxima could be at 0.1mg, or it could be a bit more or less, but not to close to 0.5 or 0.05. There is more space between 0.1 and 0.5 than between 0.05 and 0.1, and I'd like to error on the side of improving the back of my head as well, so I am taking 2-3 pills per week. With my saved money, I am buying AR blockers. I suggest people here get oleic acid, which is very cheap and probably as strong as spironolactone.

 

[CCS]

Bryan wrote:

There's only one. ONE. And that's Glaxo's trial.

http://www.google.com/search?hair loss=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search

Bryan, I saw you say that on HairLossTalk.com a few posts back, but now I forgot where I saw it. Can you help me find it on google please?

 

[Old Baldy]

Felk: Was PowerSam going through an extended shed? Did he stick with dutasteride. long enough to see if it was permanent loss or just a good shed?

I'm like Iam. I just don't see how a stronger 5AR inhibitor could cause hairloss? I mean, it should do BETTER! :hairy:

Did Power's frontal hair grow back once he stopped dutasteride.?

Did his baldness just happen to accelerate in front while he was taking dutasteride., but the dutasteride. had nothing to do with it?

I just don't get it.

College: You've got to find that study!! Try to remember the key words you used. Also, try and remember the type of site you might have been in and then did a search within that site.

We'll help you out but give us some more concise "instructions". (Because I've really tried but found nothing.)

 

[Felk]

I don't get it either!

I remember when i first came here people were saying stuff like "dutasteride - counterproductive at the front?" but i didn't really take any notice. PowerSam's experience is in his story, i think it never really grew back.

Over at HLH they are all convinced dutasteride gives you a frontal shed.

This one isn't even about dutasteride/frontal sheds, but they mention it twice very casually as if it's very common. http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=61547

"cause i experienced thinning in the hairline region after being on Dutasteride for about 6 months. "

"I was on Propecia for 6 to 7 years and then to Avodart for like a little over a month and think I got scared off by the hairline posters on here. So I switched back to finasteride with poor results and now wish I would have given Avodart more of a chance. "

" you are the first person i have heard saying that your temples actually filled in while taking dutasteride"

Bah! It doesn't make any sense! It'd still be good if some dutasteride users here could post their experiences. Aplunk thinks he's on a shed right now i think. Iam has had good results. So has Global i believe. However thats just 3, and i know 3 people have posted frontal shedding results at this forum as well.

I guess the only conclusion we can make is that these are the exception, not the rule. I guess it's like all the stuff about finasteride giving people permanent sheds, which most regard as hoo-haa.

 

[Guest]

Felk, I started dutas today so I can give results in 6 months.

 

[Sean68]

some spironolactone on the hairline possibly seems the way to go, i wonder if these guys are just using dutasteride on its own.

 

[Old Baldy]

some spironolactone on the hairline possibly seems the way to go, i wonder if these guys are just using dutasteride on its own.

I don't know, this dutasteride. frontal thinning is a mystery to me.

Like Felk said, maybe they're just exceptions. Or maybe they.... oh well, it could be alot of things I guess.

Just a tidbit: Hasson and Wong have been saying for a long time now that people, in general, respond much better to dutasteride. than finasteride. from what they've seen.

 

[Jacky81]

I don't think frontal thinning comes from too strong drugs. This is my opinion. I think it is the normal walk of (someones) hairloss.
Or: dutasteride is failing/has failed.

Those are two possibilities. But if somebody can prove the frontal thinning due to dutasteride than: you are welcome.

 

[iamnaked]

The only way I can think of this being the case would be if the extra amount of testosterone maintained in the body from the superior action of the dutasteride started to have a damaging effect on the front hair receptors. This would also mean that front receptors have to be more receptive to testosterone than the back ones.

But I thought the increase in testosterone from using 5 AR blockers was a one-off not a permanent increase... So how could this dwindling level of testosterone outweight the effect of all that nasty DHT being present in the scalp. This turns the science on its head - suggesting that testosterone is actually MORE of an agonist than DHT at the front of the scalp. It doesn't add up.

 

[CCS]

old baldy,

give me a list of every hair site on the web. well not all of them, but the ones bryan or you might consider legit ones, like hairsite1, 2, 3, ....., regrowth.com, HLh, and HairLossTalk.com. I think the post with the link in it was on one of these, but let me know if I'm missing any. I'll just go to each, and use their internal search, one sight at a time, and look for "scroll down" or something to that effect, and just go one thread at a time. It will be a pain, but it should find it. maybe we can each pick a site. i posted what i remembered in a thread where powersam asked me. maybe we can each take a hair site and divide this up. So if we find that thread, we try to think of similar keywords.

Google just does not search these posts, i guess, and i wonder what else it misses.

I think there is also one called the farrel manual.

 

[Felk]

The only way I can think of this being the case would be if the extra amount of testosterone maintained in the body from the superior action of the dutasteride started to have a damaging effect on the front hair receptors. This would also mean that front receptors have to be more receptive to testosterone than the back ones.

But I thought the increase in testosterone from using 5 AR blockers was a one-off not a permanent increase... So how could this dwindling level of testosterone outweight the effect of all that nasty DHT being present in the scalp. This turns the science on its head - suggesting that testosterone is actually MORE of an agonist than DHT at the front of the scalp. It doesn't add up.

It's actually a permanent increase, Bryan is always bursting his bubble trying to get everyone to accept this. There is no one of "spike" or anything, it's a "true upregulation" if I remember his last post about it correctly.

 

[Felk]

The only way I can think of this being the case would be if the extra amount of testosterone maintained in the body from the superior action of the dutasteride started to have a damaging effect on the front hair receptors. This would also mean that front receptors have to be more receptive to testosterone than the back ones.

But I thought the increase in testosterone from using 5 AR blockers was a one-off not a permanent increase... So how could this dwindling level of testosterone outweight the effect of all that nasty DHT being present in the scalp. This turns the science on its head - suggesting that testosterone is actually MORE of an agonist than DHT at the front of the scalp. It doesn't add up.

It's actually a permanent increase, Bryan is always bursting his bubble trying to get everyone to accept this. There is no one of "spike" or anything, it's a "true upregulation" if I remember his last post about it correctly.

Another one who's front has gotten worse on dutasteride!

"i switched abruptly from finasteride to dutasteride. ive been on dutasteride for 5 months now, and front has gotten worse."

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... highlight=