Frontal thinning on Avodart

[Guest]

a permanent increase in what felk? testosterone? im confused are you saying that the tesosterone increase from dutasteride and finasteride is permanent?

 

[CCS]

just as long as you are on the drugs. it might give a small advantage with body building, if testosterone builds more muscle than DHT. I don't , know, though.

 

[Guest]

it might also increase hair loss with the androgen tesosterone...

 

[Felk]

Jayman, that's what some people are suggesting is to blame for this "frontal thinning" which many people are experiencing.

However it's just a theory, and who knows.

With internet boards like these its such a small sample space - at this site many people appear to be more positive about dutasteride. than finasteride in terms of side effects, but go over to HLH and everyone there believes it will shed your hairline.

I know its not really a good idea to go on those reports, but there were at least three people on this forum who had the same thing happen. And one had very very obvious pics. Which sucks, because im looking into dutasteride, and my loss is at the front!

 

[iamnaked]

The only way I can think of this being the case would be if the extra amount of testosterone maintained in the body from the superior action of the dutasteride started to have a damaging effect on the front hair receptors. This would also mean that front receptors have to be more receptive to testosterone than the back ones.

But I thought the increase in testosterone from using 5 AR blockers was a one-off not a permanent increase... So how could this dwindling level of testosterone outweight the effect of all that nasty DHT being present in the scalp. This turns the science on its head - suggesting that testosterone is actually MORE of an agonist than DHT at the front of the scalp. It doesn't add up.

It's actually a permanent increase, Bryan is always bursting his bubble trying to get everyone to accept this. There is no one of "spike" or anything, it's a "true upregulation" if I remember his last post about it correctly.

Another one who's front has gotten worse on dutasteride!

"i switched abruptly from finasteride to dutasteride. ive been on dutasteride for 5 months now, and front has gotten worse."

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... highlight=

For every finasteride -> dutasteride horror story I'm sure I've seen many more stories of people gushing with joy having gone the other way, so you'll excuse my suspicion. THe Testosterone thing does surprise me slightly however. Perhaps the answer is to start taking some oral flutamide or spironolactone to get testosterone down to baseline levels.

 

[CCS]

but testosterone levles are raised a lot more in the scalp than in the rest of the body. I think the thing to do is apply an AR blocker to the frontal area.

 

[Bryan]

THe Testosterone thing does surprise me slightly however. Perhaps the answer is to start taking some oral flutamide or spironolactone to get testosterone down to baseline levels.

Flutamide RAISES testosterone levels, it doesn't lower them.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

oh, yeah, that's right. HydroxyFlutamide blocks AR receptors. spironolactone has little AR blocking ability orally, but lowers testosterone at the glands.

 

[Bryan]

Well, spironolactone has at least two distinct actions, one of which tends to RAISE testosterone, while another tends to LOWER it. Which effect wins out over the other when you take spironolactone orally is difficult to say, and may depend to some extent on the dose. Maybe it's pretty much a push, since that study on oral spironolactone and hairloss that I posted recently claimed not to find any significant alteration of hormone levels.

Bryan

 

[Felk]

The only way I can think of this being the case would be if the extra amount of testosterone maintained in the body from the superior action of the dutasteride started to have a damaging effect on the front hair receptors. This would also mean that front receptors have to be more receptive to testosterone than the back ones.

But I thought the increase in testosterone from using 5 AR blockers was a one-off not a permanent increase... So how could this dwindling level of testosterone outweight the effect of all that nasty DHT being present in the scalp. This turns the science on its head - suggesting that testosterone is actually MORE of an agonist than DHT at the front of the scalp. It doesn't add up.

It's actually a permanent increase, Bryan is always bursting his bubble trying to get everyone to accept this. There is no one of "spike" or anything, it's a "true upregulation" if I remember his last post about it correctly.

Another one who's front has gotten worse on dutasteride!

"i switched abruptly from finasteride to dutasteride. ive been on dutasteride for 5 months now, and front has gotten worse."

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... highlight=

For every finasteride -> dutasteride horror story I'm sure I've seen many more stories of people gushing with joy having gone the other way, so you'll excuse my suspicion. THe Testosterone thing does surprise me slightly however. Perhaps the answer is to start taking some oral flutamide or spironolactone to get testosterone down to baseline levels.

I know it's good to be skeptical on these internet boards, but its not just here. There are about 4 or posters here saying dutasteride made them shed at the front (one with pics showing the drastic loss), and people coming up with theories as to why. But over at HLH there are countless other posts of people losing frontal hair on dutasteride. I just really don't get it, surely it can't all just be coincidence. :?

 

[Old Baldy]

Felk: Read the testimonials by guys using dutasteride. here: (Look at the left column about half-way down the page.)

http://xenicalwtloss.hypermart.net/AVOD ... Xpage.html

 

[CCS]

Are you sure that is the right link? I don't see any testimonials anywhere on that page.

 

[Felk]

I've checked them out before, thanks Old Baldy.

But Im even more skeptical about those testimonials. For one thing, they're probably obliged to write one. For another, they have no reason to tell the truth at all. At least posters here or at HLH usually have to be approved/not spammers/have a few posts, before people take what they say seriously. Finally, that site could have just edited them or made them all up to sell more avodart, simple as that.

That being said, they're usually the ones with problems, the posters on these boards, of course.

I think i'll probably give it a go anyway, since it really doesn't make sense, this frontal thinning! :?

 

[powersam]

Well, spironolactone has at least two distinct actions, one of which tends to RAISE testosterone, while another tends to LOWER it. Which effect wins out over the other when you take spironolactone orally is difficult to say, and may depend to some extent on the dose. Maybe it's pretty much a push, since that study on oral spironolactone and hairloss that I posted recently claimed not to find any significant alteration of hormone levels.

Bryan

spironolactone can raise testosterone? thats no good at all. could you explain that a little more? in reference to topical spironolactone? it says on the side of dr lees spironolactone 5% that it converts testosterone to oestrogen, is that crap?

what should one use if they were afraid of elevated test levels in the scalp due to finasteride or dutasteride?

 

[Bryan]

spironolactone can raise testosterone? thats no good at all. could you explain that a little more?

ANY systemic antiandrogen will tend to raise testosterone levels, because they interfere with the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis which regulates the production of testosterone by a feedback mechanism.

When you take a systemic antiandrogen, the brain "sees" less androgen floating around, so it automatically sends the chemical messengers (LH and FSH) to the testes that tell them to start manufacturing more testosterone. It's a natural feedback mechanism to regulate androgen levels.

in reference to topical spironolactone?

No, I'm talking about SYSTEMIC antiandrogens. The brain doesn't know about what's happening in an area confined to your scalp.

it says on the side of dr lees spironolactone 5% that it converts testosterone to oestrogen, is that crap?

I have indeed seen some information in a medical journal study that supports that claim. However, I don't know how significant that effect is.

what should one use if they were afraid of elevated test levels in the scalp due to finasteride or dutasteride?

Use a topical antiandrogen like spironolactone along with the finasteride or dutasteride.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Well, spironolactone has at least two distinct actions, one of which tends to RAISE testosterone, while another tends to LOWER it. Which effect wins out over the other when you take spironolactone orally is difficult to say, and may depend to some extent on the dose. Maybe it's pretty much a push, since that study on oral spironolactone and hairloss that I posted recently claimed not to find any significant alteration of hormone levels.

Bryan

If it's a push then how is spironolactone beneficial if its main claim to fame is converting test to estrogen? sorry if this question is dumb. i assume you are referring to oral spironolactone that does this and not topical applied locally?

 

[Bryan]

If it's a push then how is spironolactone beneficial if its main claim to fame is converting test to estrogen?

Its main claim to fame is not converting test to estrogen (at least, as far as I know). Its main claim to fame on hairloss sites is its antiandrogenic activity. Its ability to block androgen receptors, in other words. Dr. Lee may like to talk about the estrogen thing, but that seems to be a relatively obscure property of spironolactone. I've checked the section on spironolactone in the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) in the past, and couldn't find any mention of it. On the other hand, it's relatively easy to find stuff about the antiandrogenic properties of spironolactone.

i assume you are referring to oral spironolactone that does this and not topical applied locally?

The estrogen thing? I'm not sure about that...I would imagine that it could happen both systemically and topically. I'll dig-up that blurb I found about it in the medical journal study, and I'll post it here for everybody to see. It was just a paragraph or so.

Bryan

 

[hans]

So does the anti-androgenic affects of Propecia and dutasteride cause upregulation? If it does, then quitting them would be so much more harmful than never have starting at all! :freaked:

 

[powersam]

felk has mentioned me once or twice here concerning frontal thinning on avodart ( i use the word thinning vs shedding as mine did not grow back therefore i dont see it as a shed).

i would like to illustrate the exact circumstances in which it happened just for the record (its in my Tell my story but who reads that).

used avodart for 18 months and successfully maintained with very little side effects, i had a slightly raised and lowered libido. went to scotland for a while and forgot to organise more dutasteride so i had none for around 2 months, and in that time i was reading about loading doses etc for dutasteride. when i got my dutasteride back i took 3 pills a day for 10 days and then went on to the .5mg a day dose. I then had the most horrid frontal thinning imaginable, i could see the hair getting thinner by the week. this thinning continued for a good 3 months at which point i simple stopped taking dutasteride, and the thinning stopped.

i would also like to mention that i had not ever heard anything about frontal thinning on avodart until after this happened. after it happened i read up and thats when i found that .5mg a day causes a 104% rise in scalp test. when the frontal loss occured i was taking 1.5mg a day loading dose, and had forgotten that there was probably still a significant amount of dutasteride in my system from the avodart i had been taking 2-3 months ago. so who knows what actual dose i was on or how high my scalp test went.

all above is simply my experience.

 

[Old Baldy]

Well Power, you went without dutasteride. for 2 months. That's why you had the bad time IMHO.

You still have to take the stuff regularly for Godsakes.