Hair is not Life but it's Pretty Damn Close; HRT and Pictorial Posts Prove it.
- Thread starter JaneyElizabeth
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Helpful Information:
Many aspects of using HRT for hair regrowth are similar to the MtF experience when someone wants to avoid feminization or undergo feminization. They are two sides of the same coin or some such metaphor. Height and weight and age can be very important. Balding history and male pattern baldness patterns regarding diffuse hair loss or loss only in the crown or at the temples can be important. Reproductive desires can always be messaged to me privately as can sexual preferences. Why does this matter? It matters a lot because after breasts, the chief concern is loss of ability to top partners regardless of gender. Some guys are fine with a weaker erection that still works in exchange for a full head of hair but that is all very personal in terms of what importance is placed upon hair vs. erectile capacity or even, to be blunt, showering at the gym because flaccid size in some can be significantly diminished while erect size doesn't change. v**** still works though and is recommended from time to time to maintain erectile capacity.
One reason that I grew weary with the MtF boards was that there are real biases on such boards related to trying to help other MtF's, especially the youngest ones pass and it just isn't worth the hassle of hurting someone's feelings when they ask if they pass and you tell them, well, at 190 cm with really broad shoulders and a square jaw and no beard removal, there might be limits to passing.
Many MtF's become furious if anyone mentions height or breadth or even beard removal as being important factors. One youngish female, Dutch maybe, where they grow tall had asked for help regarding how HRT might curtail any further vertical growth. This was a general question and several MtF's popped in to tell her that height doesn't matter. I believe that she was 5' feet 10" and several MtF's posted that they would love to only be 5' 10". I mean who cares? She didn't ask what height someone else wanted to be; she wanted to moderate her own height and such answers are rude and offensive to me but many consider such responses to be standard advice so as not to depress the cohort. We have plenty of members is my joke.
I have no limits about acceptability regarding any aspect of gender bending, passing vel non but if a person wants to find a partner or wonders why others avoid her, maybe more subtle approaches might be appropriate. We have a horrible time with unreasonable expectations in our cohort. There are constant complaints about "unfair clocking" by strangers. What does that even mean?
So here's the "guy" named Jane in a wig with fairly large breasts and very soft flesh and fairly small feet saying to cis-guys, "oh, significant feminization is unlikely". I try to base everything on statistics and articles on Transfeminine Science on Redditt or standard physican or pediatrician standards regarding not fusing pubertal or MtF breast growth permanently and if those aren't available, often we have pretty good anecdotal information about things like nipple size lagging as in the blog linked below. But this is a risk/reward issue for cis-guys and only each individual can decide what a 2 percent risk of ending up with slight breast growth means to him. And in an MtF context, telling people that they pass or can expect substantial breast or rear end growth is counter-productive, in my view anyhow.
The potential sides and effects of HRT are well publicized; what isn't well publicized is how poorly it works externally for many XY's as they become both broader and taller, statistically. I just assumed when I was starting out that breast growth would be equal to cis-females. Why? Because all of the university and hospitals sites list every single potential side effect, primarily to warn off cis-guys from doing this on a lark, I suppose. So when you read that permanent breast development is an effect of MtF HRT, it seems reasonable to assume that such development must be all but a certainty. Most of these sites state that hair regrowth however, is not an effect of HRT although hair maintenance generally is. Wrong again.
I would encourage anyone thinking about HRT in a cis-male context to also measure shoulders and rib cage just to see where you are. This is because by far the worst fear for cis-guys is substantial breast growth while for MtF's the fear is not being able to incur substantial breast growth. I can't remember @bridgeburn's height but I think it was similar to mine at 170 cm but he was even frailer than I am--I played soccer since I was the same size as Messi, and on such bodies, yes, pretty much any breast growth might be viewed as substantial.
I had someone yesterday message me who didn't want to post but he told me he was six feet two (why do English-speaking countries except for Canada still use two different systems of measurement?) and worried about visible feminization. He didn't give his weight but let's assume average for his height. For anyone that size, it is all but impossible to experience substantial breast growth. The nipples are too far apart and my C's or whatever would be squashed into a much larger area like pancakes. Now nipple and areola growth is very possible for anyone but I always wore shirts to hide my hairy chest at the pool anyway. But even here, most MtF's lack nipples even close to the average size for cis-females. And in terms of bug vs. feature, many cis-males seem to want/like having larger areolas and nipples, I guess within reason.
Virtually all MtF's beyond a certain size seem to have complaints about their hips and buttocks not feminizing or barely feminizing and half of the questions on reddit involve "where are my boobs? I have been on HRT now for 36 months. Should I switch AA's?"
Goddess bless them. It makes me too sad right now to deal with that level of hurt so I avoid the breast questions and focus on the hair ones. The stats may vary but anywhere from 50 percent to 70 percent of MtF's who want to present as female get breast augmentation. Not only that but they have to get quite large implants to balance (sort of) the issue with the breasts simply being much farther apart than virtually any cis-female's. It's been a while since I checked but the tallest player in the WNBA is six feet tall. That's the average male height in several countries in Europe now. (Actually 5' 11" in Holland and the Balkans if I recall correctly and Slavic and Scandinavian countries tend to produce taller people than anywhere else in the world after Holland and a couple of different Balkan states.)
The following site has very good and detail information related to HRT and breast growth, and HRT and puberty, and she provides decent stats. If anything, she states that breast size is decreasing for MtF's due to providers no longer using Premarin. Until June, Premarin was all that I had been on except for Estrogel and I was using very small, very gradually titrated amounts over 24 months. It is very, very cheap, easily procured and it too comes in a topical lotion so for what it's worth, our "healthier" HRT standards might be impeding both breast growth and hair regrowth, although she may exaggerate some. But she has pic after pic of different well known trans-models, many of them quite tall who have very little breast growth compared to the "olden days" or the average cis-female as this gal has been around with her blog going back to the 90's: https://secondtypewoman.info/
Goddess bless and I hope not to hurt any feelings but instead help people reach their broader goals of being attractive and feeling comfortable in their skin or scalps on their terms but with realistic expectations. That's why I put the "Dude, I won't even touch finasteride" line in because the last thing that cis-males want is to hamper their chances at maintenance at least.
Many aspects of using HRT for hair regrowth are similar to the MtF experience when someone wants to avoid feminization or undergo feminization. They are two sides of the same coin or some such metaphor. Height and weight and age can be very important. Balding history and male pattern baldness patterns regarding diffuse hair loss or loss only in the crown or at the temples can be important. Reproductive desires can always be messaged to me privately as can sexual preferences. Why does this matter? It matters a lot because after breasts, the chief concern is loss of ability to top partners regardless of gender. Some guys are fine with a weaker erection that still works in exchange for a full head of hair but that is all very personal in terms of what importance is placed upon hair vs. erectile capacity or even, to be blunt, showering at the gym because flaccid size in some can be significantly diminished while erect size doesn't change. v**** still works though and is recommended from time to time to maintain erectile capacity.
One reason that I grew weary with the MtF boards was that there are real biases on such boards related to trying to help other MtF's, especially the youngest ones pass and it just isn't worth the hassle of hurting someone's feelings when they ask if they pass and you tell them, well, at 190 cm with really broad shoulders and a square jaw and no beard removal, there might be limits to passing.
Many MtF's become furious if anyone mentions height or breadth or even beard removal as being important factors. One youngish female, Dutch maybe, where they grow tall had asked for help regarding how HRT might curtail any further vertical growth. This was a general question and several MtF's popped in to tell her that height doesn't matter. I believe that she was 5' feet 10" and several MtF's posted that they would love to only be 5' 10". I mean who cares? She didn't ask what height someone else wanted to be; she wanted to moderate her own height and such answers are rude and offensive to me but many consider such responses to be standard advice so as not to depress the cohort. We have plenty of members is my joke.
I have no limits about acceptability regarding any aspect of gender bending, passing vel non but if a person wants to find a partner or wonders why others avoid her, maybe more subtle approaches might be appropriate. We have a horrible time with unreasonable expectations in our cohort. There are constant complaints about "unfair clocking" by strangers. What does that even mean?
So here's the "guy" named Jane in a wig with fairly large breasts and very soft flesh and fairly small feet saying to cis-guys, "oh, significant feminization is unlikely". I try to base everything on statistics and articles on Transfeminine Science on Redditt or standard physican or pediatrician standards regarding not fusing pubertal or MtF breast growth permanently and if those aren't available, often we have pretty good anecdotal information about things like nipple size lagging as in the blog linked below. But this is a risk/reward issue for cis-guys and only each individual can decide what a 2 percent risk of ending up with slight breast growth means to him. And in an MtF context, telling people that they pass or can expect substantial breast or rear end growth is counter-productive, in my view anyhow.
The potential sides and effects of HRT are well publicized; what isn't well publicized is how poorly it works externally for many XY's as they become both broader and taller, statistically. I just assumed when I was starting out that breast growth would be equal to cis-females. Why? Because all of the university and hospitals sites list every single potential side effect, primarily to warn off cis-guys from doing this on a lark, I suppose. So when you read that permanent breast development is an effect of MtF HRT, it seems reasonable to assume that such development must be all but a certainty. Most of these sites state that hair regrowth however, is not an effect of HRT although hair maintenance generally is. Wrong again.
I would encourage anyone thinking about HRT in a cis-male context to also measure shoulders and rib cage just to see where you are. This is because by far the worst fear for cis-guys is substantial breast growth while for MtF's the fear is not being able to incur substantial breast growth. I can't remember @bridgeburn's height but I think it was similar to mine at 170 cm but he was even frailer than I am--I played soccer since I was the same size as Messi, and on such bodies, yes, pretty much any breast growth might be viewed as substantial.
I had someone yesterday message me who didn't want to post but he told me he was six feet two (why do English-speaking countries except for Canada still use two different systems of measurement?) and worried about visible feminization. He didn't give his weight but let's assume average for his height. For anyone that size, it is all but impossible to experience substantial breast growth. The nipples are too far apart and my C's or whatever would be squashed into a much larger area like pancakes. Now nipple and areola growth is very possible for anyone but I always wore shirts to hide my hairy chest at the pool anyway. But even here, most MtF's lack nipples even close to the average size for cis-females. And in terms of bug vs. feature, many cis-males seem to want/like having larger areolas and nipples, I guess within reason.
Virtually all MtF's beyond a certain size seem to have complaints about their hips and buttocks not feminizing or barely feminizing and half of the questions on reddit involve "where are my boobs? I have been on HRT now for 36 months. Should I switch AA's?"
Goddess bless them. It makes me too sad right now to deal with that level of hurt so I avoid the breast questions and focus on the hair ones. The stats may vary but anywhere from 50 percent to 70 percent of MtF's who want to present as female get breast augmentation. Not only that but they have to get quite large implants to balance (sort of) the issue with the breasts simply being much farther apart than virtually any cis-female's. It's been a while since I checked but the tallest player in the WNBA is six feet tall. That's the average male height in several countries in Europe now. (Actually 5' 11" in Holland and the Balkans if I recall correctly and Slavic and Scandinavian countries tend to produce taller people than anywhere else in the world after Holland and a couple of different Balkan states.)
The following site has very good and detail information related to HRT and breast growth, and HRT and puberty, and she provides decent stats. If anything, she states that breast size is decreasing for MtF's due to providers no longer using Premarin. Until June, Premarin was all that I had been on except for Estrogel and I was using very small, very gradually titrated amounts over 24 months. It is very, very cheap, easily procured and it too comes in a topical lotion so for what it's worth, our "healthier" HRT standards might be impeding both breast growth and hair regrowth, although she may exaggerate some. But she has pic after pic of different well known trans-models, many of them quite tall who have very little breast growth compared to the "olden days" or the average cis-female as this gal has been around with her blog going back to the 90's: https://secondtypewoman.info/
Goddess bless and I hope not to hurt any feelings but instead help people reach their broader goals of being attractive and feeling comfortable in their skin or scalps on their terms but with realistic expectations. That's why I put the "Dude, I won't even touch finasteride" line in because the last thing that cis-males want is to hamper their chances at maintenance at least.
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- Reaction score
- 310
The simple answer is:
Keeping your circulating testosterone at a reasonable level while ensuring your hair follicles at the receptor level are being consistently buffered against the effects of your circulating test.
So that means topicals, that means probably estrogen in a reasonable but not excessive amount and definitely topical because absorption versus oral route means it takes longer for that topical estrogen to go systemic and that means your testosterone throughout the rest of your body has less competition.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Oral Minoxidil: Which Rules Apply to MtF's?
Yikes. Long day. I kept wondering if I was going to get bitten by too much oral minoxidil except for my scalp and yes, it finally is happening somewhat but I have a laser removal facial treatment tomorrow. It's winter and I thought I will just keep plowing ahead since no one sees my legs but I saw a touch of dermatitis on my nose, groan, and it is coming up with the reinvigorated facial follicles, sigh but it is a valuable data point. I had to peel it off and dermatitis does not like that. It doesn't bleed exactly but it felt oozy. First time in 18 months that I have seen it and my estradiol levels are far, far higher now. Do females even get dermatitis? I will try to yank my test tomorrow and post it.
Let me tell you. This is a lot of work for an older XY to pull off. Between the laser and electrolysis, I have spent a few thousand this year and electrolysis is not only painful like laser but electrolysis is so boring. It never ends but laser never quite kills the follicles completely. I probably need to dial back the oral minoxidil dosage and start actually measuring it with a metric dropper which will be here tomorrow.
The other thing that I have overlooked regarding minoxidil is that I and other MtF's have to figure out what rules of minoxidil apply to us. Dosages for cis-females are very low for oral minoxidil and even two percent works for them topically. Honestly, I might need to dial it back to 5 grams daily which might be difficult to measure. Most females max out at 2.5 mg oral minoxidil. I might be overloading my system now with respect to this med which is used quite a bit differently for females and that never occurred to me until today.
What does the collective knowledge out there think about XY females and dosage? Where do we fit? On the bright side, I finally see lots of little blonde hairs coming in all throughout the temple area but the negative is I can perceive little hairs on my forehead that makeup makes more apparent. Hoist by my own petard about not wearing makeup over facial hair. I can't be Eddie Munster but in a lot of ways, my hair looks better already than our Polish friend AntyDHTor. I read that other thread like a novel but I didn't want to change what was there because it was so valuable in so many ways but so many of us have moved past that stage and you guys know your stuff about hormones and hopefully I am providing some of the dirt that no one else talks about.
And it's bizarre but in a great way getting to know a lot of you folks after reading your comments and seeing different avatars on the success thread. I really found it intriguing and I think that it was Marky among others who seemed disappointed and that was where the thread sort of reached a climax. It's was like, well great job but what about us? We already know girls can grow nice long hair. I am fascinated by the cis-guys on here successfully working the HRT angle especially you younger guys and Noah is sort of our new hero. Maybe the new findings about restoring fertility will make a difference for the younger guys but I am really impressed by the maturity and results that I have seen and I kind of like the way that you guys don't think it is impossible the way that my generation did.
Goddess Bless.
link.springer.com
Yikes. Long day. I kept wondering if I was going to get bitten by too much oral minoxidil except for my scalp and yes, it finally is happening somewhat but I have a laser removal facial treatment tomorrow. It's winter and I thought I will just keep plowing ahead since no one sees my legs but I saw a touch of dermatitis on my nose, groan, and it is coming up with the reinvigorated facial follicles, sigh but it is a valuable data point. I had to peel it off and dermatitis does not like that. It doesn't bleed exactly but it felt oozy. First time in 18 months that I have seen it and my estradiol levels are far, far higher now. Do females even get dermatitis? I will try to yank my test tomorrow and post it.
Let me tell you. This is a lot of work for an older XY to pull off. Between the laser and electrolysis, I have spent a few thousand this year and electrolysis is not only painful like laser but electrolysis is so boring. It never ends but laser never quite kills the follicles completely. I probably need to dial back the oral minoxidil dosage and start actually measuring it with a metric dropper which will be here tomorrow.
The other thing that I have overlooked regarding minoxidil is that I and other MtF's have to figure out what rules of minoxidil apply to us. Dosages for cis-females are very low for oral minoxidil and even two percent works for them topically. Honestly, I might need to dial it back to 5 grams daily which might be difficult to measure. Most females max out at 2.5 mg oral minoxidil. I might be overloading my system now with respect to this med which is used quite a bit differently for females and that never occurred to me until today.
What does the collective knowledge out there think about XY females and dosage? Where do we fit? On the bright side, I finally see lots of little blonde hairs coming in all throughout the temple area but the negative is I can perceive little hairs on my forehead that makeup makes more apparent. Hoist by my own petard about not wearing makeup over facial hair. I can't be Eddie Munster but in a lot of ways, my hair looks better already than our Polish friend AntyDHTor. I read that other thread like a novel but I didn't want to change what was there because it was so valuable in so many ways but so many of us have moved past that stage and you guys know your stuff about hormones and hopefully I am providing some of the dirt that no one else talks about.
And it's bizarre but in a great way getting to know a lot of you folks after reading your comments and seeing different avatars on the success thread. I really found it intriguing and I think that it was Marky among others who seemed disappointed and that was where the thread sort of reached a climax. It's was like, well great job but what about us? We already know girls can grow nice long hair. I am fascinated by the cis-guys on here successfully working the HRT angle especially you younger guys and Noah is sort of our new hero. Maybe the new findings about restoring fertility will make a difference for the younger guys but I am really impressed by the maturity and results that I have seen and I kind of like the way that you guys don't think it is impossible the way that my generation did.
Goddess Bless.
Efficacy and Safety of Oral Minoxidil 5 mg Once Daily in the Treatment of Male Patients with Androgenetic Alopecia: An Open-Label and Global Photographic Assessment - Dermatology and Therapy
Introduction Oral minoxidil is an antihypertensive vasodilator known to stimulate hair growth. The use of low-dose oral minoxidil for the treatment of male androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) is receiving increasing attention. The aim of this study was to evaluate the efficacy and safety of oral...
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Yeah topicals helps to prevent feminization since it doesn’t go systemic (partially) but it’s really a hassle. I prefer oral drugs haha
Btw, i’m thinking of 50mg of bicalutamide once a week since it has a pretty long half-life. Can it benefits my overall hair ? I saw study that it doesn’t affect the penis lengths and others things related to that.
Btw, i’m thinking of 50mg of bicalutamide once a week since it has a pretty long half-life. Can it benefits my overall hair ? I saw study that it doesn’t affect the penis lengths and others things related to that.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
With Bica, it can be beneficial but it might depend upon your E2 and T1 levels whether you need it or not. Basically everyone agrees that it shouldn't be taken long-term without E2. You could go a couple of months and see if Bica helps but at some point, you will need to desist or add E2. Some transgender providers will prescribe an AA for up to 90 days. I think this is done more often in Europe but also by some in the U.S. The theory is that somehow this resets the system and makes it ready to add E2 for HRT. I have never understood the benefit here. Most MtF's start off with 1 to 4 mg of estradiol swallowed and an AA but I only started off on Premarin and it is probably about fifty-fifty related to whether folks start off with Estradiol only vel non.
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- Reaction score
- 2,033
HRT Test:
I would appreciate thoughts and comments on my latest blood test. Apparently, my levels of estradiol are very high:
Message from my HRT P.A.:
Hi,
Your estradiol level is toxic: Estradiol [H] 2485.0 pg/mL 7.6-42.6.
It should be less than 200. You are at risk of having a stroke or blood clot.
Please hold the estrogen for 2-3 weeks and resume at 1/2 the dose. or only one climara .1 mg patch per week.
I would appreciate thoughts and comments on my latest blood test. Apparently, my levels of estradiol are very high:
Message from my HRT P.A.:
Hi,
Your estradiol level is toxic: Estradiol [H] 2485.0 pg/mL 7.6-42.6.
It should be less than 200. You are at risk of having a stroke or blood clot.
Please hold the estrogen for 2-3 weeks and resume at 1/2 the dose. or only one climara .1 mg patch per week.
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| Date | 12/24/2020 02:51 PM |
| Summary | Lab Report: CMP14+eGFR, CBC With Differential/Platelet, Lipid Panel, Tes ... |
| Location | Chase Brexton Health Care - Mount Vernon Center |
| Provider | Deborah PA |
| Status | Signed |
| Doctor Id | 233 |
| Patient: Jane Elizabeth ID: 1100 Note: All result statuses are Final unless otherwise noted. Patient Note: PATIENT NOT FASTING Tests: (1) CMP14+eGFR (334943) Glucose 72 mg/dL 65-99 BUN 11 mg/dL 6-24 Creatinine 0.78 mg/dL 0.76-1.27 eGFR If NonAfricn Am 101 mL/min/1.73 >59 eGFR If Africn Am 117 mL/min/1.73 >59 BUN/Creatinine Ratio 14 9-20 Sodium 138 mmol/L 134-144 Potassium 4.5 mmol/L 3.5-5.2 Chloride 104 mmol/L 96-106 Carbon Dioxide, Total 24 mmol/L 20-29 Calcium 8.7 mg/dL 8.7-10.2 Protein, Total 6.1 g/dL 6.0-8.5 Albumin 3.8 g/dL 3.8-4.9 Globulin, Total 2.3 g/dL 1.5-4.5 A/G Ratio 1.7 1.2-2.2 Bilirubin, Total <0.2 mg/dL 0.0-1.2 Alkaline Phosphatase 46 IU/L 39-117 AST (SGOT) 16 IU/L 0-40 ALT (SGPT) 14 IU/L 0-44 Tests: (2) CBC With Differential/Platelet (005009) WBC 10.7 x10E3/uL 3.4-10.8 RBC [L] 3.33 x10E6/uL 4.14-5.80 Hemoglobin [L] 10.9 g/dL 13.0-17.7 Hematocrit [L] 33.0 % 37.5-51.0 MCV [H] 99 fL 79-97 MCH 32.7 pg 26.6-33.0 MCHC 33.0 g/dL 31.5-35.7 RDW 12.3 % 11.6-15.4 Platelets 310 x10E3/uL 150-450 Neutrophils 73 % Not Estab. Lymphs 13 % Not Estab. Monocytes 10 % Not Estab. Eos 3 % Not Estab. Basos 0 % Not Estab. Neutrophils (Absolute) [H] 7.8 x10E3/uL 1.4-7.0 Lymphs (Absolute) 1.4 x10E3/uL 0.7-3.1 Monocytes(Absolute) [H] 1.1 x10E3/uL 0.1-0.9 Eos (Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4 Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2 Immature Granulocytes 1 % Not Estab. Immature Grans (Abs) 0.1 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1 Tests: (3) Lipid Panel (303756) Cholesterol, Total 160 mg/dL 100-199 Triglycerides 135 mg/dL 0-149 HDL Cholesterol 62 mg/dL >39 VLDL Cholesterol Cal 23 mg/dL 5-40 LDL Chol Calc (NIH) 75 mg/dL 0-99 Tests: (4) Testosterone, Serum (004226) Testosterone, Serum [L] 12 ng/dL 264-916 Adult male reference interval is based on a population of healthy nonobese males (BMI <30) between 19 and 39 years old. Travison, et.al. JCEM 2017,102;1161-1173. PMID: 28324103. Tests: (5) Estradiol (004515) Estradiol [H] 2485.0 pg/mL 7.6-42.6 Roche ECLIA methodology Note: An exclamation mark (!) indicates a result that was not dispersed into the flowsheet. Document Creation Date: 12/25/2020 6:42 AM _______________________________________________________________________ (1) Order result status: Final Collection or observation date-time: 12/24/2020 14:51 Requested date-time: Receipt date-time: 12/24/2020 00:00 Reported date-time: 12/25/2020 06:35 Referring Physician: Ordering Physician: D DUNN (ddunn) Specimen Source: Source: 1100 Filler Order Number: 35949618200 LAB Lab site: Performed At: BN, LabCorp Burlington 1447 York Court Burlington, NC 272153361 Sanjai Nagendra MD Phone: 8007624344 (2) Order result status: Final Collection or observation date-time: 12/24/2020 14:51 Requested date-time: Receipt date-time: 12/24/2020 00:00 Reported date-time: 12/25/2020 06:35 Referring Physician: Ordering Physician: D DUNN (ddunn) Specimen Source: Source: 1100 Filler Order Number: 35949618200 LAB Lab site: Performed At: BN, LabCorp Burlington 1447 York Court Burlington, NC 272153361 Sanjai Nagendra MD Phone: 8007624344 (3) Order result status: Final Collection or observation date-time: 12/24/2020 14:51 Requested date-time: Receipt date-time: 12/24/2020 00:00 Reported date-time: 12/25/2020 06:35 Referring Physician: Ordering Physician: D DUNN (ddunn) Specimen Source: Source: 1100 Filler Order Number: 35949618200 LAB Lab site: Performed At: BN, LabCorp Burlington 1447 York Court Burlington, NC 272153361 Sanjai Nagendra MD Phone: 8007624344 (4) Order result status: Final Collection or observation date-time: 12/24/2020 14:51 Requested date-time: Receipt date-time: 12/24/2020 00:00 Reported date-time: 12/25/2020 06:35 Referring Physician: Ordering Physician: D DUNN (ddunn) Specimen Source: Source: 1100 Filler Order Number: 35949618200 LAB Lab site: Performed At: BN, LabCorp Burlington 1447 York Court Burlington, NC 272153361 Sanjai Nagendra MD Phone: 8007624344 (5) Order result status: Final Collection or observation date-time: 12/24/2020 14:51 Requested date-time: Receipt date-time: 12/24/2020 00:00 Reported date-time: 12/25/2020 06:35 Referring Physician: Ordering Physician: Specimen Source: Source: 1100 Filler Order Number: 35949618200 LAB Lab site: Performed At: BN, LabCorp Burlington 1447 York Court Burlington, NC 272153361 ----------------- The following results differed from their previous value: eGFR If Africn Am Old Value: 101 New Value: 117 ----------------- The following non-numeric lab results were dispersed to the flowsheet even though numeric results were expected: Bilirubin, Total, <0.2 | |
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Well, I don't love the terminology used. I prefer "extremely high" but that was the goal to see what unlimited usage of estradiol might bring forth. Many of you who test regularly, I would appreciate any thoughts related to titration downward. I have to say that I have seen some incredibly positive things with my face and hair and part of the point here was to see if "pregnancy" levels of estrogen might help me "unstall" (Dr. Will Powers' term) my facial, chest, hip and hair progress towards further or complete feminization. After seven years, I had to finally push to the finish line.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Oral Minoxidil:
Here's a thread that discusses dosage and which has some test results posted by our old friend, Ikarus. There is some vile anti-transgender talk by one person again and again who is simply a font of misinformation. I find it humorous when these fellows seem to get all offended by anyone using HRT meds. Inner conflicts much? That's part of it but I think that some cis-guys who are balding think that those taking the hormonal path are "cheating", similar to wearing a toupee.
Here's a thread that discusses dosage and which has some test results posted by our old friend, Ikarus. There is some vile anti-transgender talk by one person again and again who is simply a font of misinformation. I find it humorous when these fellows seem to get all offended by anyone using HRT meds. Inner conflicts much? That's part of it but I think that some cis-guys who are balding think that those taking the hormonal path are "cheating", similar to wearing a toupee.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Here's something that I know some of you are either using or thinking about using. There are some pretty impressive pictures. At the same time, I think that I have read that it doesn't work as well as reductase inhibitors:
RU is pretty weak on its own but when combined with fina/duta might just help tip the balance in your favor.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Ranking the Hair Treatments that I have used gong back to 1984:
Thank you. I am going to put together a list of things I have used and then things that might work for others.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Ranking the Hair Treatments that I have used going back to 1984:
To all the meds I've used before
Who traveled in and out my door
I'm glad they came along
I dedicate this song
To all the meds I've used before
1. Estradiol/Estrogel
2. Oral Minoxidil
3. Dutasteride
4. Finasteride
5. Topical Minoxidil
6. Biestro Topical Cream
7. Medroxyprogesterone Acetate/Provera/Depo-provera/MPA with estrogen regime
8. Addition of spironolactone or other AA to low-dose estradiol, not alone
9. Polysorbate 60
10. Polysorbate 80
11. Microneedling
12. Ketoconozole
13. Retin-A/tretinoin
14. Rob's Massages
15. L-Acetyl Cysteine
16. Saw Palmetto
17 Placental Factors Formulas
18. Biotin
19. Laser Comb
20. Diet based upon phytochemicals and omega 3's
I might have overlooked a couple. Ranking is based upon my own experiences and the literature. Note, some of the above could be synergistic which can account for differences in terms of ranking.
Essentially, treatments 14-20 did nothing one way or the other that I could perceive. It would be great to see others post their own top five or more treatments tried in terms of efficacy. Sorry, Rob, but I love your site otherwise and I read every article. I just think the massages as explained on his site are too rough for anyone worried about catagen. Since I was using spironolactone, derma-rolling and doing the massages, perhaps the three together were too rough. I think spironolactone is good for hair and had I known more about titration, I might have avoided some of the many sides.
Ranking the Hair Treatments that I have used gong back to 1984 in terms of efficacy with no to few sides. If there is a tie, the literature trumps. In my opinion, all of the below should be tried. The first three are the only ones likely to have sides for anyone but they have had zero sides for me. For people opposed to the hormonal route, three through eight have all been helpful to me anecdotally.
1. Dutasteride
2. Finasteride
3. Topical Minoxidil
4. Microneedling
5. Polysorbate 60
6. Polysorbate 80
7. Ketoconozole
8. Retin-A/tretinoin
I haven't seen Polysorbate 60 in a while. Polysorbate 80 can still be found in health food stores. I am fairly certain that Polysorbate 60 can be ordered from a variety of places as it is commonly used as a food preservative. The great thing about Polysorbate 60 is that it works really well as a hair dressing that you leave in. Polysorbate 80 is much, much stickier, almost like honey and should be left in for 5 to 30 minutes and then washed out. You really have no choice unless you sleep with Polysorbate 80 in but you can't style hair until it is rinsed away, which is easier in the tub. Polysorbate 60 all but saved my life and I will always be greatful to Bob Adams and New Generation for coming out and advertising in 1984 with their infomercials. Polysorbate 80 also had infomercials with Robert Vaughn from the Man from Uncle hosting the half hour show touting the Helsinki Formula. Purportedly, it had been discovered in Finland, hence the name.
There was a third prominent infomercial with a product known as Hair in a spray can and boy, was that stuff fantastic. I can no longer locate it and I guess I don't need it anymore. When I had my shed, I looked around and couldn't find it. The stuff was shown in the Fabulous Baker Boys with the brothers Bridges. It worked far better than the messy sprinkle stuff that seems to be all that's left on the market.
To all the meds I've used before
Who traveled in and out my door
I'm glad they came along
I dedicate this song
To all the meds I've used before
1. Estradiol/Estrogel
2. Oral Minoxidil
3. Dutasteride
4. Finasteride
5. Topical Minoxidil
6. Biestro Topical Cream
7. Medroxyprogesterone Acetate/Provera/Depo-provera/MPA with estrogen regime
8. Addition of spironolactone or other AA to low-dose estradiol, not alone
9. Polysorbate 60
10. Polysorbate 80
11. Microneedling
12. Ketoconozole
13. Retin-A/tretinoin
14. Rob's Massages
15. L-Acetyl Cysteine
16. Saw Palmetto
17 Placental Factors Formulas
18. Biotin
19. Laser Comb
20. Diet based upon phytochemicals and omega 3's
I might have overlooked a couple. Ranking is based upon my own experiences and the literature. Note, some of the above could be synergistic which can account for differences in terms of ranking.
Essentially, treatments 14-20 did nothing one way or the other that I could perceive. It would be great to see others post their own top five or more treatments tried in terms of efficacy. Sorry, Rob, but I love your site otherwise and I read every article. I just think the massages as explained on his site are too rough for anyone worried about catagen. Since I was using spironolactone, derma-rolling and doing the massages, perhaps the three together were too rough. I think spironolactone is good for hair and had I known more about titration, I might have avoided some of the many sides.
Ranking the Hair Treatments that I have used gong back to 1984 in terms of efficacy with no to few sides. If there is a tie, the literature trumps. In my opinion, all of the below should be tried. The first three are the only ones likely to have sides for anyone but they have had zero sides for me. For people opposed to the hormonal route, three through eight have all been helpful to me anecdotally.
1. Dutasteride
2. Finasteride
3. Topical Minoxidil
4. Microneedling
5. Polysorbate 60
6. Polysorbate 80
7. Ketoconozole
8. Retin-A/tretinoin
I haven't seen Polysorbate 60 in a while. Polysorbate 80 can still be found in health food stores. I am fairly certain that Polysorbate 60 can be ordered from a variety of places as it is commonly used as a food preservative. The great thing about Polysorbate 60 is that it works really well as a hair dressing that you leave in. Polysorbate 80 is much, much stickier, almost like honey and should be left in for 5 to 30 minutes and then washed out. You really have no choice unless you sleep with Polysorbate 80 in but you can't style hair until it is rinsed away, which is easier in the tub. Polysorbate 60 all but saved my life and I will always be greatful to Bob Adams and New Generation for coming out and advertising in 1984 with their infomercials. Polysorbate 80 also had infomercials with Robert Vaughn from the Man from Uncle hosting the half hour show touting the Helsinki Formula. Purportedly, it had been discovered in Finland, hence the name.
There was a third prominent infomercial with a product known as Hair in a spray can and boy, was that stuff fantastic. I can no longer locate it and I guess I don't need it anymore. When I had my shed, I looked around and couldn't find it. The stuff was shown in the Fabulous Baker Boys with the brothers Bridges. It worked far better than the messy sprinkle stuff that seems to be all that's left on the market.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Estradiol Levels for Females:
My goal has been to push my estradiol levels into those of female pregnancy. At 2495 pg/ml, I have hit the high mark for the first trimester of pregnancy remarkably well. According to the chart below, the high range is 2497 which is virtually identical to my test level.
Notice how low female estradiol levels are after menopause. Again, so many things that might be stereotypical in terms of females perhaps changing in terms of personality in their 50's.
My goal has been to push my estradiol levels into those of female pregnancy. At 2495 pg/ml, I have hit the high mark for the first trimester of pregnancy remarkably well. According to the chart below, the high range is 2497 which is virtually identical to my test level.
Notice how low female estradiol levels are after menopause. Again, so many things that might be stereotypical in terms of females perhaps changing in terms of personality in their 50's.
perinatology.com Reference Values During Pregnancy | | ||
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- Reaction score
- 748
What kind of poly 80 is for scalp at health stores? This is what goggle says about it:
Polysorbate 80 is an excipient that is used to stabilize aqueous formulations of medications for parenteral administration, and used as an emulsifier in the making of the popular antiarrhythmic amiodarone. It is also used as an excipient in some European and Canadian influenza vaccines.
Also I know of Rob PH, I thought he was saying the trick was the scalp massage had to be done the right way to be effective and that he had clients with success with this.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Hi Marky, Happy New Year.
I might have been doing the massages "wrong" but I am not sure what that means. I did the pinching. I could bring the two sides of my scalp together but one thing for me was that it was kind of addictive and maybe I did it too much. Estrogen loosens the scalp and for whatever reason a lot of folks who like him seem to feel as though he is right about almost everything but I mean, how do you invent massage? Also, if I remember correctly, he estimated the daily time of massage at ~40 minutes per day! Yikes, that's a whole lot of massage. I do some more gently massaging now, pulling my scalp and sides of my scalp forward but I think microneedling is a much more viable path.
I might have been doing the massages "wrong" but I am not sure what that means. I did the pinching. I could bring the two sides of my scalp together but one thing for me was that it was kind of addictive and maybe I did it too much. Estrogen loosens the scalp and for whatever reason a lot of folks who like him seem to feel as though he is right about almost everything but I mean, how do you invent massage? Also, if I remember correctly, he estimated the daily time of massage at ~40 minutes per day! Yikes, that's a whole lot of massage. I do some more gently massaging now, pulling my scalp and sides of my scalp forward but I think microneedling is a much more viable path.
- Reaction score
- 2,033
Polysorbates:
This article jumped out: https://newhair.com/baldingblog/is-polysorbate-a-hair-loss-treatment/
Polysorbates are used in food and it is interesting to see in the article that one of the people said something similar to me about how sticky polysorbate 80 is. They were sold under the sebum plug theory which was discredited in the 80's and the FDA chased them out of business to "protect" us. I have absolutely nothing behind this except I saw great stabilization in my hair loss from what I had expected. I think that the products were sold in good faith and that they did work for many people. My basis for this is, strangely enough, that the results from the two in terms of regrowth even in the commercials and in still photos were not all the great, similar to minoxidil "regrowth". Bob Murphy still had a comb-over, from New Generation and his results were perhaps cosmetically significant but eh, just barely. He still looked balding. So the fact that we didn't have any great pictures of regrowth worked in favor of these products in my opinion. Even slowing down hair loss in 1984 was the greatest treatment since the Garden of Eden where there was no baldness, apparently.
We just don't know how exactly. For what it's worth, I believe that they act similarly to Keto. They help keep sebum at bay and yeast colonies from overpopulating, perhaps thereby lessening inflammation and reducing hair loss. Inflammation is getting to be sort of a catch-all thing in hair loss. I go back and forth between placebo effect and inflammation-lessening and I think that they did work to slow down hair loss and for some to the point where at least some "growth" was apparent.
I guess I am supposed to be angry for being "snookered" but I don't think that I was. There were independent reports at least from Finland and the U.S. and I assume Canada that they did in fact work to some extent. They were often advertised in men's fitness and work-out magazines. The Polysorbate 60 sounds like what a lot of people are looking for in terms of being a hair dressing that can be left in without being too heavy for styling.
Note that the doctor refusing to to take a stand on them is William Rassman, who, for business, sort of hangs out on Tressless and he is well-respected but I don't know his age because pretty much anyone in college during the 80's would have come across these products, the placental factors products and Hair in a Spray Can because you kept hitting the infomercials all of the time.
I digress but back then, cable had 40 channels at most so you could actually scroll through every channel unlike 700 channels on cable nowadays. In some ways it was better because you would only have channels 2 through 13 in some areas which meant the big four networks, a couple of syndicated networks, CNN and ESPN and one or two slots for HBO which I would love to have back instead of 600 channels full of garbage like now. With HBOMax now out online, I am not sure why anyone would bother with cable except to get ESPN. I had Sony for online cable last year and they went belly up in January of 2020 and I never bothered to get a replacement.
Here is a site devoted to blacks who often have different hair issues with breakage, with this link dating to 2008. Rassman's is from 2012 so they are gradually being forgotten but maybe what is explained here is better than my theory, as they link them to castor oil in terms of working:
forum.blackhairmedia.com
Also note that the mere everyday or twice a day rubbing of the product in, in itself, might have slight beneficial effects, including minoxidil and Estrogel. And ah, yes, some of this is coming back to me, some versions had biotin and niacin in them.
Here is info about the FDA action: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/judicial/admin-decisions/1983/11-152dd.htm
Here's an L.A. Times story about both products and the devotion to them. I agree. Until New Generation, I was without hope and I often joke on Tressless, "you know what makes a person unable to get wood? Being bald....": This is an excellent article. If you can't get it, then click on Reader on your browser and it should work:
www.latimes.com
I love this quote: "This whole hair-growth phenomenon needs some context. First, understand that the fate of a human hair from the base of its root to the tip of its shaft presents one of the most complex and baffling systems of the human body. Heart attacks, glandular activity and multiple orgasms have been relatively easy to understand compared to receding hairlines."
And here: https://www.newswire.com/the-original-hair-loss-treatment/201249
This is a turgid study about different Malassezia which might be leaving inflammatory by-products on the scalp: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15335405
This article jumped out: https://newhair.com/baldingblog/is-polysorbate-a-hair-loss-treatment/
Polysorbates are used in food and it is interesting to see in the article that one of the people said something similar to me about how sticky polysorbate 80 is. They were sold under the sebum plug theory which was discredited in the 80's and the FDA chased them out of business to "protect" us. I have absolutely nothing behind this except I saw great stabilization in my hair loss from what I had expected. I think that the products were sold in good faith and that they did work for many people. My basis for this is, strangely enough, that the results from the two in terms of regrowth even in the commercials and in still photos were not all the great, similar to minoxidil "regrowth". Bob Murphy still had a comb-over, from New Generation and his results were perhaps cosmetically significant but eh, just barely. He still looked balding. So the fact that we didn't have any great pictures of regrowth worked in favor of these products in my opinion. Even slowing down hair loss in 1984 was the greatest treatment since the Garden of Eden where there was no baldness, apparently.
We just don't know how exactly. For what it's worth, I believe that they act similarly to Keto. They help keep sebum at bay and yeast colonies from overpopulating, perhaps thereby lessening inflammation and reducing hair loss. Inflammation is getting to be sort of a catch-all thing in hair loss. I go back and forth between placebo effect and inflammation-lessening and I think that they did work to slow down hair loss and for some to the point where at least some "growth" was apparent.
I guess I am supposed to be angry for being "snookered" but I don't think that I was. There were independent reports at least from Finland and the U.S. and I assume Canada that they did in fact work to some extent. They were often advertised in men's fitness and work-out magazines. The Polysorbate 60 sounds like what a lot of people are looking for in terms of being a hair dressing that can be left in without being too heavy for styling.
Note that the doctor refusing to to take a stand on them is William Rassman, who, for business, sort of hangs out on Tressless and he is well-respected but I don't know his age because pretty much anyone in college during the 80's would have come across these products, the placental factors products and Hair in a Spray Can because you kept hitting the infomercials all of the time.
I digress but back then, cable had 40 channels at most so you could actually scroll through every channel unlike 700 channels on cable nowadays. In some ways it was better because you would only have channels 2 through 13 in some areas which meant the big four networks, a couple of syndicated networks, CNN and ESPN and one or two slots for HBO which I would love to have back instead of 600 channels full of garbage like now. With HBOMax now out online, I am not sure why anyone would bother with cable except to get ESPN. I had Sony for online cable last year and they went belly up in January of 2020 and I never bothered to get a replacement.
Here is a site devoted to blacks who often have different hair issues with breakage, with this link dating to 2008. Rassman's is from 2012 so they are gradually being forgotten but maybe what is explained here is better than my theory, as they link them to castor oil in terms of working:
PolySorbate 80...
do you still use it? Haven't heard about it in a while....
Also note that the mere everyday or twice a day rubbing of the product in, in itself, might have slight beneficial effects, including minoxidil and Estrogel. And ah, yes, some of this is coming back to me, some versions had biotin and niacin in them.
Here is info about the FDA action: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/judicial/admin-decisions/1983/11-152dd.htm
Here's an L.A. Times story about both products and the devotion to them. I agree. Until New Generation, I was without hope and I often joke on Tressless, "you know what makes a person unable to get wood? Being bald....": This is an excellent article. If you can't get it, then click on Reader on your browser and it should work:
Splitting Hairs : A Bald Tale of Two Guys, Too Much Testosterone and the U.S. Legal System
THE MOUSE FORMULA The threat was delivered to Hal Z.
www.latimes.com
I love this quote: "This whole hair-growth phenomenon needs some context. First, understand that the fate of a human hair from the base of its root to the tip of its shaft presents one of the most complex and baffling systems of the human body. Heart attacks, glandular activity and multiple orgasms have been relatively easy to understand compared to receding hairlines."
And here: https://www.newswire.com/the-original-hair-loss-treatment/201249
This is a turgid study about different Malassezia which might be leaving inflammatory by-products on the scalp: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15335405
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 2,033
2020, So Long:
Wait! What happened to stem cells coming out in 2020 and curing all of us? Maybe tomorrow? Aren't some cures coming out soon from Eastern Europe or was that last year?
Anyone remember the Flaming Homer? It was the drink of the century but was stolen by Moe the Bartender. To get revenge, Homer publishes (in the legal sense) the formula to everyone in Moe's bar. One week later, Famous Meaux were being sold everywhere.
Is this the future of hair restoration? I continue to believe that there remains a substantial component of men who actually are more able to accept baldness than the weak folks like me. Man up, as they say but I sort think that if a cure came out that was either expensive or painful, we would see great numbers of men who would shrug their shoulders and say, "hmm, I will have to look into that but there's no hurry". Many of us could have perfect teeth for $10,000 to $20,000 but eh, how many of us bother. We can always do it in the future.
So yes, part of the horrible and urgent nature of hair loss has to do with the loss of control, I think, along with the shame of balding young. Why this should be shameful, no one knows but I was ashamed. Maybe because my father had perfect hair and people would see and tell us that he looked like the son. Nice, huh? There's no other human defect where people feel as though they can just tease and deride someone and expect it to be funny. I did it once, when I was 17 to an older male and look what happened to me, karma, baby. I never saw hair loss coming. Virtually no one of a white or Semitic background looks better bald unless they have Son of Sam hair, though, so I have little patience with people like my mother (hi mom!) who kept telling me that "women love bald men". Um...No, they don't. Finally, one night we were watching an old Alfred Hitchcock television program about, I can't remember the plot but the guy put on a toupee and all the gals started liking him and even my mother admitted that the actor looked like a creep without the rug.
On the bright side, this was the year where Dimoxidl became a reality. A treatment that you could drink or swallow that actually regrows hair like Jesus's, or at least Nixon's. That Nixon hairline always haunted me. I have greatly enjoyed the interactions with all of the folks who have contributed and help me find answers for myself and others. I was looking at an Ikarus post earlier, which I linked but we have had absolutely no trolling, well a couple, but if any of you take a look at that thread, Ikarus is just as bad as the trollers and the insults sling back and forth for many pages and then Ikarus flew too close to the sun and disappeared. Bless you Ikarus and bless all of the other HRT pioneers that have published their own experiences to help the rest of us.
Cheers and Happy New Year,
Goddess Bless,
Janey
Wait! What happened to stem cells coming out in 2020 and curing all of us? Maybe tomorrow? Aren't some cures coming out soon from Eastern Europe or was that last year?
Anyone remember the Flaming Homer? It was the drink of the century but was stolen by Moe the Bartender. To get revenge, Homer publishes (in the legal sense) the formula to everyone in Moe's bar. One week later, Famous Meaux were being sold everywhere.
Is this the future of hair restoration? I continue to believe that there remains a substantial component of men who actually are more able to accept baldness than the weak folks like me. Man up, as they say but I sort think that if a cure came out that was either expensive or painful, we would see great numbers of men who would shrug their shoulders and say, "hmm, I will have to look into that but there's no hurry". Many of us could have perfect teeth for $10,000 to $20,000 but eh, how many of us bother. We can always do it in the future.
So yes, part of the horrible and urgent nature of hair loss has to do with the loss of control, I think, along with the shame of balding young. Why this should be shameful, no one knows but I was ashamed. Maybe because my father had perfect hair and people would see and tell us that he looked like the son. Nice, huh? There's no other human defect where people feel as though they can just tease and deride someone and expect it to be funny. I did it once, when I was 17 to an older male and look what happened to me, karma, baby. I never saw hair loss coming. Virtually no one of a white or Semitic background looks better bald unless they have Son of Sam hair, though, so I have little patience with people like my mother (hi mom!) who kept telling me that "women love bald men". Um...No, they don't. Finally, one night we were watching an old Alfred Hitchcock television program about, I can't remember the plot but the guy put on a toupee and all the gals started liking him and even my mother admitted that the actor looked like a creep without the rug.
On the bright side, this was the year where Dimoxidl became a reality. A treatment that you could drink or swallow that actually regrows hair like Jesus's, or at least Nixon's. That Nixon hairline always haunted me. I have greatly enjoyed the interactions with all of the folks who have contributed and help me find answers for myself and others. I was looking at an Ikarus post earlier, which I linked but we have had absolutely no trolling, well a couple, but if any of you take a look at that thread, Ikarus is just as bad as the trollers and the insults sling back and forth for many pages and then Ikarus flew too close to the sun and disappeared. Bless you Ikarus and bless all of the other HRT pioneers that have published their own experiences to help the rest of us.
Cheers and Happy New Year,
Goddess Bless,
Janey
Last edited:
This is so interesting. The 80s were awesome (even though I wasn't even born yet lol).Polysorbates:
This article jumped out: https://newhair.com/baldingblog/is-polysorbate-a-hair-loss-treatment/
Polysorbates are used in food and it is interesting to see in the article that one of the people said something similar to me about how sticky polysorbate 80 is. They were sold under the sebum plug theory which was discredited in the 80's and the FDA chased them out of business to "protect" us. I have absolutely nothing behind this except I saw great stabilization in my hair loss from what I had expected. I think that the products were sold in good faith and that they did work for many people. My basis for this is, strangely enough, that the results from the two in terms of regrowth even in the commercials and in still photos were not all the great, similar to minoxidil "regrowth". Bob Murphy still had a comb-over, from New Generation and his results were perhaps cosmetically significant but eh, just barely. He still looked balding. So the fact that we didn't have any great pictures of regrowth worked in favor of these products in my opinion. Even slowing down hair loss in 1984 was the greatest treatment since the Garden of Eden where there was no baldness, apparently.
We just don't know how exactly. For what it's worth, I believe that they act similarly to Keto. They help keep sebum at bay and yeast colonies from overpopulating, perhaps thereby lessening inflammation and reducing hair loss. Inflammation is getting to be sort of a catch-all thing in hair loss. I go back and forth between placebo effect and inflammation-lessening and I think that they did work to slow down hair loss and for some to the point where at least some "growth" was apparent.
I guess I am supposed to be angry for being "snookered" but I don't think that I was. There were independent reports at least from Finland and the U.S. and I assume Canada that they did in fact work to some extent. They were often advertised in men's fitness and work-out magazines. The Polysorbate 60 sounds like what a lot of people are looking for in terms of being a hair dressing that can be left in without being too heavy for styling.
Note that the doctor refusing to to take a stand on them is William Rassman, who, for business, sort of hangs out on Tressless and he is well-respected but I don't know his age because pretty much anyone in college during the 80's would have come across these products, the placental factors products and Hair in a Spray Can because you kept hitting the infomercials all of the time.
I digress but back then, cable had 40 channels at most so you could actually scroll through every channel unlike 700 channels on cable nowadays. In some ways it was better because you would only have channels 2 through 13 in some areas which meant the big four networks, a couple of syndicated networks, CNN and ESPN and one or two slots for HBO which I would love to have back instead of 600 channels full of garbage like now. With HBOMax now out online, I am not sure why anyone would bother with cable except to get ESPN. I had Sony for online cable last year and they went belly up in January of 2020 and I never bothered to get a replacement.
Here is a site devoted to blacks who often have different hair issues with breakage, with this link dating to 2008. Rassman's is from 2012 so they are gradually being forgotten but maybe what is explained here is better than my theory, as they link them to castor oil in terms of working:
PolySorbate 80...
do you still use it? Haven't heard about it in a while....
Also note that the mere everyday or twice a day rubbing of the product in, in itself, might have slight beneficial effects, including minoxidil and Estrogel. And ah, yes, some of this is coming back to me, some versions had biotin and niacin in them.
Here is info about the FDA action: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/judicial/admin-decisions/1983/11-152dd.htm
Here's an L.A. Times story about both products and the devotion to them. I agree. Until New Generation, I was without hope and I often joke on Tressless, "you know what makes a person unable to get wood? Being bald....": This is an excellent article. If you can't get it, then click on Reader on your browser and it should work:
Splitting Hairs : A Bald Tale of Two Guys, Too Much Testosterone and the U.S. Legal System
THE MOUSE FORMULA The threat was delivered to Hal Z.
I love this quote: "This whole hair-growth phenomenon needs some context. First, understand that the fate of a human hair from the base of its root to the tip of its shaft presents one of the most complex and baffling systems of the human body. Heart attacks, glandular activity and multiple orgasms have been relatively easy to understand compared to receding hairlines."
And here: https://www.newswire.com/the-original-hair-loss-treatment/201249
This is a turgid study about different Malassezia which might be leaving inflammatory by-products on the scalp: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15335405