Hell yea, brand new update from Stemson!

[Joxy]

In other to create new hairs, it's necessary TWO types of stem cells: dermal papilla and epithelial

- In 2014, scientists found out a way to derive epithelial stem cells from iPSC for the first time.
- In 2015 Dr. Terskikh and other scientists managed to derive dermal papilla stem cells from ESC, and later on from iPSC.

Since iPSCs are very easy to amplify and it's now known how to derive both dermal papilla and epithelial stem cells from iPSCs, now it is possible to create unlimited amounts of hairs.

According to Dr. Terskikh, the fundamental problem is solved, now it's just a matter of getting the engineering part right to deliver the cure.

Still, Terskikh method was based on mouse epithelial stem cells, and we know that everyone today can grown hair on mice.


This research was far more groundbreaking than any other before.

Hair-bearing human skin generated entirely from pluripotent stem cells​

Hair-bearing human skin generated entirely from pluripotent stem cells - Nature

Skin organoids generated in vitro from human pluripotent stem cells form complex, multilayered skin tissue with hair follicles, sebaceous glands and neural circuitry, and integrate with endogenous skin when grafted onto immunocompromised mice.

www.nature.com

They created skin and hair from 100% human iPSCs.
One of the persons who peer reviewed this paper was Claire Higgins (HairClone).

Also, TissUse last year made good progress with their research and paper

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[werefckd]

Still, Terskikh method was based on mouse epithelial stem cells, and we know that everyone today can grown hair on mice.


This research was far more groundbreaking than any other before.

Hair-bearing human skin generated entirely from pluripotent stem cells​

Hair-bearing human skin generated entirely from pluripotent stem cells - Nature

Skin organoids generated in vitro from human pluripotent stem cells form complex, multilayered skin tissue with hair follicles, sebaceous glands and neural circuitry, and integrate with endogenous skin when grafted onto immunocompromised mice.

www.nature.com

They created skin and hair from 100% human iPSCs.
One of the persons who peer reviewed this paper was Claire Higgins (HairClone).

Also, TissUse last year made good progress with their research and paper

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The first study is very interesting.

Yea Stemson was using mice epithelial cells until 2019 at least, and we still don't know if they are using human cells now. I wonder why they were using human DP and mice Epithelial cells in the first place, maybe because in order to use human cells it was necessary to transplant humans skin in the mice? I don't know, but it's definitely something to be questioned.

Also, in that interview video I posted, Dr. Terskikh clearely states that not all challenges related to the DP stem cells differentiation are already solved - which is frustrating since that part is the core of their tech and they have been working on it for many years already.

 

[Joxy]

The first study is very interesting.

Yea Stemson was using mice epithelial cells until 2019 at least, and we still don't know if they are using human cells now. I wonder why they were using human DP and mice Epithelial cells in the first place, maybe because in order to use human cells it was necessary to transplant humans skin in the mice? I don't know, but it's definitely something to be questioned.

Also, in that interview video I posted, Dr. Terskikh clearely states that not all challenges related to the DP stem cells differentiation are already solved - which is frustrating since that part is the core of their tech and they have been working on it for many years already.

Regular using of stem cells/iPSCs will be affordable in 20 years. Maybe more. Who knows.

They need to solve many things and then build technology for massive, effective and cheap production.

That will take decades.

 

[RolfLeeBuckler]

You thomk that stemsons investors will wait that long to get benefits from hair cloning? i think not if they wiont reales in 5 years they willl be finished, just like aderans

Bro hair cloning will
Never happen. Stemson is at least 30-40 Years away. They will commercialize in 2050-2060.

Accept this please

 

[MeDK]

Regular using of stem cells/iPSCs will be affordable in 20 years. Maybe more. Who knows.

They need to solve many things and then build technology for massive, effective and cheap production.

That will take decades.

Stemcells are already used for breast enlargements. So it is being used for other cosmetics too, and it isn't super expensive.

 

[Joxy]

You thomk that stemsons investors will wait that long to get benefits from hair cloning? i think not if they wiont reales in 5 years they willl be finished, just like aderans

Stemcells are already used for breast enlargements. So it is being used for other cosmetics too, and it isn't super expensive.

Those stem cells are adipose-derived. There are different types of stem cells with different capability. Totipotent vs. pluripotent vs. multipotent. Plus, scientists has very big problems how to multiply many lines with same quality and genes expression.

Totipotent stem cells are most powerful, and scientists in 2020 for the first time succeeded to reprogram pluripotent stem cells into totipotent stem cells.

Maternal factor NELFA drives a 2C-like state in mouse embryonic stem cells - Nature Cell Biology

Hu, Tan, Chia et al. identify negative elongation factor A as one of the earliest drivers of the mouse embryonic 2-cell-like state through interaction with Top2a, which mediates Dux expression.

www.nature.com

Reprogramming cells to original state for regenerative medicine

Scientists have found a way to induce totipotency in embryonic cells that have already matured into pluripotency. This has great potential to improve cell engineering capabilities for regenerative medicine therapeutics.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Joxy]

You thomk that stemsons investors will wait that long to get benefits from hair cloning? i think not if they wiont reales in 5 years they willl be finished, just like aderans

We will see. Time will tell.

 

[MeDK]

Tsuji wanted 300k for his hair cloning

Well what he wants, and what a product will actually cost is two different things. If companies could choose them self they also wanted top money for their product.

But if we go with ACTUAL on market stem cell treatments, its about $31.000, so far from the $300.000 mark. And since stem cell treatments exist for other cosmetics than hair, then it shows that we have a market with a stem cell production that keeps reducing cost over time.

Like i have written many times. Tsuji isn't the lastest and greatest and doesn't seem to be able to become it anytime soon if ever.

 

[jan_miezda]

$ 30k for new hair is not a huge price

People on this forum lie, just like youngjet

 

[werefckd]

Well what he wants, and what a product will actually cost is two different things. If companies could choose them self they also wanted top money for their product.

But if we go with ACTUAL on market stem cell treatments, its about $31.000, so far from the $300.000 mark. And since stem cell treatments exist for other cosmetics than hair, then it shows that we have a market with a stem cell production that keeps reducing cost over time.

Like i have written many times. Tsuji isn't the lastest and greatest and doesn't seem to be able to become it anytime soon if ever.

Tsuji didn't even have the prototype of a product remotely ready, so the $300K price estimation, if he really said that, was a total wild guess. Probably based on a premium for early vip access, not actual production costs.

On the other hand, the $31K mark seems very low. Hair "cloning" will be a much more complex process than the current stem cell treatments. We are talking about the full creation of brand new organs (hair), not just some injections to heal an existing one.

A world class hair transplant doctor charges anywhere between $ 5-12 USD per graft. So a traditional 10,000 graft restoration would cost between $50K-120K. There is no way HC will be cheaper than that.

Stemson's version of HC will still need someone implanting the new hairs (EDIT: by hairs, I mean hair gems), so it will be similar to hair transplants, only instead of extracting hairs from the donor area, stem cells will be created, amplified, manipulated, transported, stored etc. So HC will be more expensive than hair transplants for sure. Say it will be double the cost of a traditional hair transplant, the 10,000 graft restoration with HC will cost $100k-$240K - the top of the range being not that far from Tsuji's estimate.

Also 10,000 grafts gives a decent coverage for a Norwood 6 dude, but if you want to get back at native density with a teenage hairline, you will need double that amount of grafts. In that case we are approaching a cost of half a million dollars for HC. During the years, because of learning curves , economies of scale, etc. I expect the price to go down though (but it will never be cheap).

Of course if you just need around 3K grafts, HC could very well cost less than $100K for you, but in that case a traditional hair transplant can already fix you.

 

[MeDK]

Tsuji didn't even have the prototype of a product remotely ready, so the $300K price estimation, if he really said that, was a total wild guess. Probably based on a premium for early vip access, not actual production costs.

On the other hand, the $31K mark seems very low. Hair "cloning" will be a much more complex process than the current stem cell treatments. We are talking about the full creation of brand new organs (hair), not just some injections to heal an existing one.

A world class hair transplant doctor charges anywhere between $ 5-12 USD per graft. So a traditional 10,000 graft restoration would cost between $50K-120K. There is no way HC will be cheaper than that.

Stemson's version of HC will still need someone implanting the new hairs, so it will be similar to hair transplants, only instead of extracting hairs from the donor area, stem cells will be created, amplified, manipulated, transported, stored etc. So HC will be more expensive than hair transplants for sure. Say it will be double the cost of a traditional hair transplant, the 10,000 graft restoration with HC will cost $100k-$240K - the top of the range being not that far from Tsuji's estimate.

Also 10,000 grafts gives a decent coverage for a Norwood 6 dude, but if you want to get back at native density with a teenage hairline, you will need double that amount of grafts. In that case we are approaching a cost of half a million dollars for HC. During the years, because of learning curves , economies of scale, etc. I expect the price to go down though (but it will never be cheap).

Of course if you just need around 3K grafts, HC could very well cost less than $100K for you, but in that case a traditional hair transplant can already fix you.

We are talking about regenerative medicine, i don't know why people keep on to hold onto that they will grow actually hair follicles and then implant them.

Today stem cell treatments, they go through same screening process for each stem cells and such in laboratories, just like with the approach with stem cells for hair procedures. So the marketprice today for $31.000 doesn't seem low, that is the price for an actual stem cell treatment, and not speculation !

so +$100.000 i won't believe that is going to be the price at all. since no other treatment out there have that price tag on the commercial market.

 

[werefckd]

We are talking about regenerative medicine, i don't know why people keep on to hold onto that they will grow actually hair follicles and then implant them.

Today stem cell treatments, they go through same screening process for each stem cells and such in laboratories, just like with the approach with stem cells for hair procedures. So the marketprice today for $31.000 doesn't seem low, that is the price for an actual stem cell treatment, and not speculation !

so +$100.000 i won't believe that is going to be the price at all. since no other treatment out there have that price tag on the commercial market.

By implanting hairs, I meant hair gems. According to Terskikh own words, they will need to be implanted and probably by the current hair transplant docs, as they already have the expertise. So there is no way HC is going to be cheaper than hair transplant. In the beginning, the price will be multiples of a hair transplant.

You are right that there are no other treatment costing $100K but I would say this is no "treatment", you are creating new organs by the thousands from scratch. There is nothing like this on the market right now. And there are many surgeries that cost way more than $100K. By the way, if you want to get 8,500 grafts transplanted by Dr. Konior today it will cost you more than $100K and you will have to wait for more than a year to get to your turn.

Remember you will have to pay both the company creating the hair gems AND the implanter. On top of that, waiting lines will be huge so the demand pressure will force prices even higher.

 

[werefckd]

the price is not a problem as long as it works and will restore your teenager's hair for life, but if you're going to pay $ 500k for hair for 5 years, let them stick it up their ***

Computers were insanely expensive too in the beginning, and look where we are now. Prices will come down. And we don't know for sure if the hairs won't be DHT resistant. Worst case maybe you will need a touch up every 5 years, not a full procedure again.

 

[jan_miezda]

This reminds me of the Tsuji thread. People were talking about the prices they would pay when the treatment arrived. Now what?
They won’t pay anything because he failed.
Youngjet is a traitor

 

[werefckd]

I agree with you, the price will be huge at first if it works. one thing makes me laugh, Alexey wanted to help bald children and women, I wonder how he will help them for 500k $ ?: D

I think they are aiming to make something affordable to everyone, that's how they can maximise their profits in the long run. But it the beginning I believe productivity will be low and the demand will be huge compared to the tiny supply that will be available, and price will be the equaliser.

 

[MeDK]

By implanting hairs, I meant hair gems. According to Terskikh own words, they will need to be implanted and probably by the current hair transplant docs, as they already have the expertise. So there is no way HC is going to be cheaper than hair transplant. In the beginning, the price will be multiples of a hair transplant.

You are right that there are no other treatment costing $100K but I would say this is no "treatment", you are creating new organs by the thousands from scratch. There is nothing like this on the market right now. And there are many surgeries that cost way more than $100K. By the way, if you want to get 8,500 grafts transplanted by Dr. Konior today it will cost you more than $100K and you will have to wait for more than a year to get to your turn.

Remember you will have to pay both the company creating the hair gems AND the implanter. On top of that, waiting lines will be huge so the demand pressure will force prices even higher.

Either we are talking about two very different procedures or else i don't know what you are talking about.

We are talking about taking out some cell from your scalp, and then send those to a laboratory, and then inject those new cultivated cells. We are not talking about graft in the thousands. The waiting time is for the cultivation of cells.

I have a hard time imagine that its going to be $100.000 procedure for some injections.

But of course, there are always cosmetics clinics trying to do a money grab from people. But reality is, that hair transplants won't be a thing with regenerative medicine. Because that isn't what regenerative medicine is about.

and those $31.000 is with complete procedures, from extraction, cultivation and injections back into the body.

 

[werefckd]

Either we are talking about two very different procedures or else i don't know what you are talking about.

We are talking about taking out some cell from your scalp, and then send those to a laboratory, and then inject those new cultivated cells. We are not talking about graft in the thousands. The waiting time is for the cultivation of cells.

I have a hard time imagine that its going to be $100.000 procedure for some injections.

But of course, there are always cosmetics clinics trying to do a money grab from people. But reality is, that hair transplants won't be a thing with regenerative medicine. Because that isn't what regenerative medicine is about.

and those $31.000 is with complete procedures, from extraction, cultivation and injections back into the body.

Yea I think we have different ideas of how the procedure will work.

I don't believe it will be just "some" injections and then voila full head of hair, man. I think it will be basically a hair transplant with unlimited donor, only you implant hair gems (a "packet" of dermal papilla and epithelial stem cells) instead of actual hairs grafts.

In that case it will be 1 injection per new graft growth. If you want to end up with 10,000 new follicles in your scalp you will need 10,000 injections of hair gems spread over your bald area performed by a surgeon/technician controlling for variables such as angle, depth, space between them etc. for each of the 10,000 injections. Very time consuming and also dependent on skill of the person performing the injections.

 

[MeDK]

Stemson treatment is not about this, at least initially, they are to grow hair, which will then be transplanted by a surgeon

To qoute Stemson

"Then Stemson's proprietary cell transplantation procedure ensures the cells anchor effectively under the skin and grow through the skin to yield a healthy hair follicle." - Stemson

 

[MeDK]

Yea I think we have different ideas of how the procedure will work.

I don't believe it will be just "some" injections and then voila full head of hair, man. I think it will be basically a hair transplant with unlimited donor, only you implant hair gems (a "packet" of dermal papilla and epithelial stem cells) instead of actual hairs grafts.

In that case it will be 1 injection per new graft growth. If you want to end up with 10,000 new follicles in your scalp you will need 10,000 injections of hair gems spread over your bald area performed by a surgeon/technician controlling for variables such as angle, depth, space between them etc. for each of the 10,000 injections. Very time consuming and also dependent on skill of the person performing the injections.

If its like their mouse study, then they to a transplant (injection) and then a patch of hair grow.

So it's not 1 injection/transplant = 1 follicle

 

[werefckd]

If its like their mouse study, then they to a transplant (injection) and then a patch of hair grow.

So it's not 1 injection/transplant = 1 follicle

Yea but how many injections were that?

Also, I guess you could put more than one hair gem per injection, but then that patchy hair looked like sh*t for a reason. We are talking about getting natural looking human hairs here.