How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

[whatevr]

i don't trust the supplier of the drug such as RU
I only trust branded pharmacy

 

[IdealForehead]

You don’t want to take an aromatase inhibitor. All of you who are using them to lower E are idiots. You are just f*****g with your chances of regrowing a hairline. Aromatase inhibition CAUSES RECESSION.

Just was thinking about this more and looked up to see what I could find for studies on this.

Aromatase inhibitors induce ‘male pattern hair loss’ in women?

We studied 15 menopausal women aged from 50 to 60 years, with hormone receptor-positive breast cancer, between the ages 50 and 65 years, receiving aromatase inhibitors (AIs), anastrazole or letrozole. After 1 year of therapy, they had hair loss.

Recession of the frontal and parietal hairlines and diffuse hair loss (Figure 1a and b) were observed. Miniaturization of follicles in the fronto-temporal area (Figure 1c) was revealed. Behind the scalp area sensible to aromatase, in the frontal region, the diameter of hair was normal without any alterations, with normal hair density (Figure 1d).

https://academic.oup.com/annonc/article/24/6/1710/181282

​

So this is a pretty powerful effect. Probably for men we would be less sensitive this problem since we don't have as much aromatase in our scalps (why we follow the Norwood pattern and women follow the Ludwig pattern). But in principle it definitely suggests taking an aromatase inhibitor is not the best thing to do if you're trying to save your hair, man or woman.

And that study clearly confirms everything you have said previously about higher levels of aromatase in the frontotemporal regions for women being the primary factor that protects these hairs in women. This is absolutely the reason for the difference in androgenic balding patterns between the two genders.

 

[Georgie]

Just was thinking about this more and looked up to see what I could find for studies on this.

Aromatase inhibitors induce ‘male pattern hair loss’ in women?

We studied 15 menopausal women aged from 50 to 60 years, with hormone receptor-positive breast cancer, between the ages 50 and 65 years, receiving aromatase inhibitors (AIs), anastrazole or letrozole. After 1 year of therapy, they had hair loss.

Recession of the frontal and parietal hairlines and diffuse hair loss (Figure 1a and b) were observed. Miniaturization of follicles in the fronto-temporal area (Figure 1c) was revealed. Behind the scalp area sensible to aromatase, in the frontal region, the diameter of hair was normal without any alterations, with normal hair density (Figure 1d).

https://academic.oup.com/annonc/article/24/6/1710/181282


View attachment 84311
​

So this is a pretty powerful effect. Probably for men we would be less sensitive this problem since we don't have as much aromatase in our scalps (why we follow the Norwood pattern and women follow the Ludwig pattern). But in principle it definitely suggests taking an aromatase inhibitor is not the best thing to do if you're trying to save your hair, man or woman.

And that study clearly confirms everything you have said previously about higher levels of aromatase in the frontotemporal regions for women being the primary factor that protects these hairs in women. This is absolutely the reason for the difference in androgenic balding patterns between the two genders.

Haha I saw that study a long time ago. In fact I’ve read every article and study I can find on it. It’s how I know my problem was due to menopause and estrogens, which no dumbass doctor could seem to tell me.

 

[IdealForehead]

Haha I saw that study a long time ago. In fact I’ve read every article and study I can find on it. It’s how I know my problem was due to menopause and estrogens, which no dumbass doctor could seem to tell me.

I think it would be undeniably true at this stage that people like us on forums like this likely know more about the pathogenesis of hairloss than all but the most specialized hair medicine doctors and/or researchers.

It isn't a slam against the medical field in general. Even an obgyn like yours who deals with hormonal issues on a regular basis must know a great deal about a wide variety of subjects including for example how to surgically remove a cancerous ovary or perform an emergency Cesarean section. It would be impossible for him to spend the hundreds of hours we have reading obscure journal articles on hair loss to formulate in depth theories on new methods to change its progression. Eg. To know what the scalp distribution of aromatase is, or the difference between an ER-beta or ER-alpha receptor.

The Internet has been an incredible tool for the democratization of knowledge. Anyone with sufficient motivation, time, and intelligence can learn on their own enough to become an expert. It's given us the tools to take matters into our own hands.

I still remember when I realized dutasteride wasn't suppressing my DHT and finasteride had failed. I looked at my doctor with despair and said "What am I going to do now?" And he looked confused/blank and said "I don't know. I guess that's it then."

lol. Nope. Not by a long shot.

I just mean to say it's nice we can take measures into our own hands to learn more and do more when the first line conventional measures and advice don't work as planned.

 

[whatevr]

Just was thinking about this more and looked up to see what I could find for studies on this.

Aromatase inhibitors induce ‘male pattern hair loss’ in women?

We studied 15 menopausal women aged from 50 to 60 years, with hormone receptor-positive breast cancer, between the ages 50 and 65 years, receiving aromatase inhibitors (AIs), anastrazole or letrozole. After 1 year of therapy, they had hair loss.

Recession of the frontal and parietal hairlines and diffuse hair loss (Figure 1a and b) were observed. Miniaturization of follicles in the fronto-temporal area (Figure 1c) was revealed. Behind the scalp area sensible to aromatase, in the frontal region, the diameter of hair was normal without any alterations, with normal hair density (Figure 1d).

https://academic.oup.com/annonc/article/24/6/1710/181282


View attachment 84311
​

So this is a pretty powerful effect. Probably for men we would be less sensitive this problem since we don't have as much aromatase in our scalps (why we follow the Norwood pattern and women follow the Ludwig pattern). But in principle it definitely suggests taking an aromatase inhibitor is not the best thing to do if you're trying to save your hair, man or woman.

And that study clearly confirms everything you have said previously about higher levels of aromatase in the frontotemporal regions for women being the primary factor that protects these hairs in women. This is absolutely the reason for the difference in androgenic balding patterns between the two genders.

But you can't explain it to idiots here on HairLossTalk.com and other forums who want to lower their estrogen.

 

[Georgie]

But you can't explain it to idiots here on HairLossTalk.com and other forums who want to lower their estrogen.

That phrase “lower estrogen” sends a chill through me. Estrogen is the mother’s milk. Give me all of it and may my follicles happily drown in its growth-promoting goodness.

 

[IdealForehead]

That phrase “lower estrogen” sends a chill through me. Estrogen is the mother’s milk. Give me all of it and may my follicles happily drown in its growth-promoting goodness.

Yeah but only if it's the right type of estrogen. ER-alpha stimulation increases CXXC5 which may be part of the mechanism by which it stimulates catagen and hair failure. Hot off the presses thanks to @HairCook .

I already tagged you there but see:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...xxxc5-inhibitor-bosentan.113227/#post-1646575

This is absolutely critical for you.

Remember that ethinyl estradiol has a greater ER-alpha preference vs. ER-beta. And that is what you have been bathing your hair in the past few years.

 

[Georgie]

Yeah but only if it's the right type of estrogen. ER-alpha stimulation increases CXXC5 which may be part of the mechanism by which it stimulates catagen and hair failure. Hot off the presses thanks to @HairCook .

I already tagged you there but see:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...xxxc5-inhibitor-bosentan.113227/#post-1646575

This is absolutely critical for you.

Remember that ethinyl estradiol has a greater ER-alpha preference vs. ER-beta. And that is what you have been bathing your hair in the past few years.

Yeah hence the rationale behind starting a 17b estradiol topical and estriol cream whilst I’m awaiting my prometrium so I can commence proper transition to bio hormones. I won’t take the risk of using only progynova in its own. I realise I will probably go through about 6 months to a year of hell whilst things are readjusting though.

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah hence the rationale behind starting a 17b estradiol topical and estriol cream whilst I’m awaiting my prometrium so I can commence proper transition to bio hormones. I won’t take the risk of using only progynova in its own. I realise I will probably go through about 6 months to a year of hell whilst things are readjusting though.

That's great. I'm so happy to hear that. Not the "6 months to a year of hell" I mean of course. Just that you're on the path to getting it done. Fingers crossed for a better life for you after.

This hair sh*t can be stressful, but it's peaceful once you figure it out and it all starts to go right.

 

[Georgie]

That's great. I'm so happy to hear that. Not the "6 months to a year of hell" I mean of course. Just that you're on the path to getting it done. Fingers crossed for a better life for you after.

This hair sh*t can be stressful, but it's peaceful once you figure it out and it all starts to go right.

All of that being said, i honestly think that i'm eventually going to have to drop minoxidil because it 100% in contributing to my shedding issues.

 

[IdealForehead]

All of that being said, i honestly think that i'm eventually going to have to drop minoxidil because it 100% in contributing to my shedding issues.

Well I definitely think it could be contributing the cyclical nature of your hair growth and shedding. And I agree it's not a good long term solution given the potential risks it has for collagen and thus arthritis, premature aging, etc.

If I were you, I probably would stop it once you feel you have a good and stable estrogen balance for 1-3 months first. I stopped my minoxidil as of around 3-4 weeks ago and I am hoping never to go back. I have noticed no problems from stopping it, but I had been able to stabilize my hair for months before I stopped it and I know my regimen is working well overall with or without minoxidil in this context.

 

[Georgie]

Well I definitely think it could be contributing the cyclical nature of your hair growth and shedding. And I agree it's not a good long term solution given the potential risks it has for collagen and thus arthritis, premature aging, etc.

If I were you, I probably would stop it once you feel you have a good and stable estrogen balance for 1-3 months first. I stopped my minoxidil as of around 3-4 weeks ago and I am hoping never to go back. I have noticed no problems from stopping it, but I had been able to stabilize my hair for months before I stopped it and I know my regimen is working well overall with or without minoxidil in this context.

As much as i value and appreciate your advice, i do not think you can compare your experiences with treatment to mine, or perhaps forecast upon outcomes for me based upon your own. Minoxidil has had a drastic impact upon my hair which began with utterly traumatic shedding (we're talking 400+ hairs a day), followed by dramatic regrowth, and thereafter cyclical shedding, loss and regrowth. I think it's safe to say that i cannot stop it without a similarly dramatic reaction. My goal is to see if i can get any kind of regrowth that is not minoxidil-driven, or even just change the quality of regrowth that i am having with it so that i do not have such extensive miniaturisation. I thought by using daro, avodart and seti, even if it didn't stop my shedding, it might stop the miniaturisation. This, sadly, is not the case even vaguely. Truly, i think that it now comes down to altering the hair at a stem cell level. The closest i can come to this so far is stimulating or injecting growth factors. If i see that this yields a positive response, then i may wean off minoxidil. Of course, my female hormones are also a large player but by no means do i believe that it will solve my issue. I am making the switch for me hair out of curiosity with very little faith, but mores for my body because being on the pill is not a sustainable form of hormone replacement.

 

[whatevr]

My hair is so GODDAMN THIN without estrogen stimulation. Wispy, flat, without any volume.

After a few days of estriol it starts looking reasonable, but then there goes the libido and I start feeling like a pussy. Can we get an ER-ß agonist that doesn't have a half-life of 15 motherfucking hours?

 

[Georgie]

My hair is so GODDAMN THIN without estrogen stimulation. Wispy, flat, without any volume.

After a few days of estriol it starts looking reasonable, but then there goes the libido and I start feeling like a pussy. Can we get an ER-ß agonist that doesn't have a half-life of 15 motherfucking hours?

Phytoestrogens are pretty good ER-B agonists, but that said, if you want the benefits of oestrogen, i think sadly you're going to have to endure the side effects.

 

[HairCook]

Reminds me of someone using 10% melatonin (see link I posted before, mel inhibits er alpha - mel has a very low half life, so going for whatever max concentration makes sense even though research indicates too much mel being bad) topically on private forums. He sprouted some terminals on his temples but ended up quitting cause the sides were stacking up and he read some bs about mel.

 

[Arrade]

Reminds me of someone using 10% melatonin (see link I posted before, mel inhibits er alpha - mel has a very low half life, so going for whatever max concentration makes sense even though research indicates too much mel being bad) topically on private forums. He sprouted some terminals on his temples but ended up quitting cause the sides were stacking up and he read some bs about mel.

Do you remember which BS?
I actually have melanotan-2 which never passed phase 3 FDA trials. It messes with your brain but I remember that you can actually grow moles behind your retina, and articificially increases melatonin had caused this condition and blindness/vision sides. Just curious

 

[IdealForehead]

As much as i value and appreciate your advice, i do not think you can compare your experiences with treatment to mine, or perhaps forecast upon outcomes for me based upon your own. Minoxidil has had a drastic impact upon my hair which began with utterly traumatic shedding (we're talking 400+ hairs a day), followed by dramatic regrowth, and thereafter cyclical shedding, loss and regrowth. I think it's safe to say that i cannot stop it without a similarly dramatic reaction. My goal is to see if i can get any kind of regrowth that is not minoxidil-driven, or even just change the quality of regrowth that i am having with it so that i do not have such extensive miniaturisation. I thought by using daro, avodart and seti, even if it didn't stop my shedding, it might stop the miniaturisation. This, sadly, is not the case even vaguely. Truly, i think that it now comes down to altering the hair at a stem cell level. The closest i can come to this so far is stimulating or injecting growth factors. If i see that this yields a positive response, then i may wean off minoxidil. Of course, my female hormones are also a large player but by no means do i believe that it will solve my issue. I am making the switch for me hair out of curiosity with very little faith, but mores for my body because being on the pill is not a sustainable form of hormone replacement.

I agree my experiences cannot be generalized to yours, for a large number of reasons. But I think we should be able to find some cohesive explanation and resolution to your problem based on the enormous amount of hair research we have reviewed. Between you and me alone we have likely spent thousands of hours on hair loss research.

If you don't believe your problem is hormonal, why do you think fundamentally your hair is failing like this?

There are rare hair conditions beyond the normal that do seem to exist. Like I read about "congenital hypotrichosis" caused by "ectodermal dysplasia" in the cetirizine study here. But that is a congenital problem. Those people are born with faulty follicles.

Your hair loss is not congenital. It has come on later in life, which would suggest something new in your life has been and is causing the ongoing damage.

All the hair loss research I have read describes hair loss as occurring as a result of: hormones (eg. androgens, estrogens, cortisol, thyroid), auto-immunity (eg. alopecia arreata), congenital skin or connective tissue disease (eg. ectodermal dysplasia), age-related atrophy, nutritional deficiency (eg. iron), or toxicity (eg. medications, poisons, chemo, radiation).

Do you think that you have a hair loss etiology which falls outside the constrains of this paradigm? Or are you suggesting you think minoxidil is your toxic agent?

It is certainly possible I think minoxidil is causing a pathological reaction. I have read many posts from people who have reported sheds for 6 months or more that don't stop on minoxidil and then having to quit. If minoxidil is causing you a great deal of problems for an unknown reason, it may not be possible to get regrowth from other agents while you are still on it.

I think everyone on this forum would be happy for you to see your hair problem solved. It's unfortunate what you've been going through. You've certainly tried more than most. One of the things I respect about you is you never let side effects slow you down or fear of the unknown prevent you from trying something new.

We should be able to brainstorm a rational or evidence-based explanation for what's going on and how to fix it.

 

[HairCook]

Do you remember which BS?
I actually have melanotan-2 which never passed phase 3 FDA trials. It messes with your brain but I remember that you can actually grow moles behind your retina, and articificially increases melatonin had caused this condition and blindness/vision sides. Just curious

Nah, nothing to do with that. He just read about impurities in commercial melatonin, it having serotonin and other stuff in it. I doubt that though lol.
He reads a lot of weird blogs, so ...

 

[rclark]

If only there was some test we could take to see if we are equol producers. cause if we are then we can increase it by eating lots of soy

Or eat lots of PUSSY. That would have more DHT fighting chemicals, I would imagine.

Find some lesbians, and dress up like a woman. I think that's your best bet now. In
fact, if you're convincing enough, work as a prison guard in a woman's facility.

Then, lick them while their having their periods. They'll be so bitchy towards each other,
they'll probably need a break by then.

If they give you any sh*t, just rape them. That might help you get rid of some DHT.

Try it, you never know.

 

[bridgeburn]

By the way, please don't be offended by this.

Can I grope you?

yes, but only because you make me laugh