How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

[bridgeburn]

If they give you any sh*t, just rape them. That might help you get rid of some DHT.

I can't take my unprescribed meds with me to prison

 

[rclark]

Since it's kind of slow here, at 6:06 AM (STE Time), I thought I would let you in on a
scientific secret, @bridgeburn, that few people know.

Women actually are able to pick up phermones from other women (orders that cannot be smelled, but the
body reacts to).

That is how their menstrual cycles become in sync. TRUE FACT.

Women in prison have the same menstrual cycle.

Not sure if you get the show sixty days in (current season 4, I think). There was this hot
undercover lesbian who actually ate "whipits" (illegal drugs) the women make in prison. And she had
LESBIAN sex under a blanket. Her show name was Angela.

I don't know if Progesterone makes you "mentally hornier" (it is a human "bonding" drug), but all
of the sudden, I feel like I have to meet Angela, and have sex with her.

 

[rclark]

You can’t have sex. Your peepee is not working. Unless you mean scissor.

What is scissor sex? I've heard that term before.

 

[rclark]

Here's Angela, this is a hot lesbian. She was the only good thing about this season's
sixty days in.

She keeps it real. And she hooked up with a feminine, possibly bisexual woman. Had
sex with her bunk mate in front of at least six other women living in the same room.
There's something hot about female criminals.

It's probably the Progesterone I take. I feel it clouds my judgement when I
choose sexual partners (let's face it, some lesbians find sex with men gross).

 

[bridgeburn]

It's probably the Progesterone I take. I feel it clouds my judgement when I
choose sexual partners (let's face it

If you take enough estrogen maybe she will let you have sex with her, lol now Im going to have to try progesterone

 

[Georgie]

Or eat lots of PUSSY. That would have more DHT fighting chemicals, I would imagine.

Find some lesbians, and dress up like a woman. I think that's your best bet now. In
fact, if you're convincing enough, work as a prison guard in a woman's facility.

Then, lick them while their having their periods. They'll be so bitchy towards each other,
they'll probably need a break by then.

If they give you any sh*t, just rape them. That might help you get rid of some DHT.

Try it, you never know.

What the actual f***.

 

[Georgie]

I agree my experiences cannot be generalized to yours, for a large number of reasons. But I think we should be able to find some cohesive explanation and resolution to your problem based on the enormous amount of hair research we have reviewed. Between you and me alone we have likely spent thousands of hours on hair loss research.

If you don't believe your problem is hormonal, why do you think fundamentally your hair is failing like this?

There are rare hair conditions beyond the normal that do seem to exist. Like I read about "congenital hypotrichosis" caused by "ectodermal dysplasia" in the cetirizine study here. But that is a congenital problem. Those people are born with faulty follicles.

Your hair loss is not congenital. It has come on later in life, which would suggest something new in your life has been and is causing the ongoing damage.

All the hair loss research I have read describes hair loss as occurring as a result of: hormones (eg. androgens, estrogens, cortisol, thyroid), auto-immunity (eg. alopecia arreata), congenital skin or connective tissue disease (eg. ectodermal dysplasia), age-related atrophy, nutritional deficiency (eg. iron), or toxicity (eg. medications, poisons, chemo, radiation).

Do you think that you have a hair loss etiology which falls outside the constrains of this paradigm? Or are you suggesting you think minoxidil is your toxic agent?

It is certainly possible I think minoxidil is causing a pathological reaction. I have read many posts from people who have reported sheds for 6 months or more that don't stop on minoxidil and then having to quit. If minoxidil is causing you a great deal of problems for an unknown reason, it may not be possible to get regrowth from other agents while you are still on it.

I think everyone on this forum would be happy for you to see your hair problem solved. It's unfortunate what you've been going through. You've certainly tried more than most. One of the things I respect about you is you never let side effects slow you down or fear of the unknown prevent you from trying something new.

We should be able to brainstorm a rational or evidence-based explanation for what's going on and how to fix it.

Well I think that I already had something really really wrong with my hair growth cycle outside of Androgenetic Alopecia and outside of regular menopausal hairloss. I lost hair rapidly in a diffuse, retrograde pattern (and still do), where the hair simply seemed to fall out and miniturise straight away. Usually this process takes a while, sometimes years. This took me months. My hair growth cycle was shut off totally. I think perhaps because things were already so bad, there’s only so much minoxidil could do to lengthen the Anaheim phase of hair that was already so messed up. Or maybe I was just one of the unlucky few for which minoxidil just randomly causes synchronised growth and loss. At any rate, I do beleive that whilst it totally controls my hair growth cycle, it’s almost impossible for other things to work. That being said, i did start the pill and spironolactone well before I started minoxidil and it never stopped the loss of miniturisation which, and my derm said, is some of the most aggressive miniturisation in such a short period of time that he has seen.

Anyway, good news is I got my prometrium in the mail today and starting tomorrow shall begin my new regimen of 100mg progesterone/6mg estradiol daily. Hopefully that ratio doesn’t given me cancer. Ha.

 

[rclark]

What the actual f***.

Just trying to help his DHT levels. It's science.

Think about it.

 

[rclark]

@Georgie

Please don't take this offensive. This is really important, because I think
it will help my baldness.

Do you know of any lesbians that are sexually active, that look like you? I'm not
into post menopause dikes.

If so, do they live on the American continents?

 

[Georgie]

@Georgie

Please don't take this offensive. This is really important, because I think
it will help my baldness.

Do you know of any lesbians that are sexually active, that look like you? I'm not
into post menopause dikes.

If so, do they live on the American continents?

Well since I am both inclined towards other females and have been through menopause, I guess that makes me a menopause dyke.

I’ve also been raped and don’t find what you’ve said particularly amusing.

 

[Georgie]

@IdealForehead so as of yet things are ok. I haven’t got any pain or discomfort which is a relief, and although it of course is too early to tell, I can’t say that I’ve noticed my hair coming out in fistfuls. If it happens, it will take a few days to a week as has been the case when I’ve switched hrt previously. I actually am amazed that my ovaries feel bizarrely calm for having undergone such a dramamtic hormonal shift. I am bleeding lightly but I excepted this. Boobs are still reacting the same way as usual when I take estrogen (they usually plump up 30 odd minutes after taking it) which is comforting that my body is as leasy in some way responsive.

 

[Georgie]

I'm sorry to hear that, I really am.

No man should physically impose themselves on ANYBODY, that's just fucked up.

I said the identical twin part as a joke (because it would be very creepy and strange to directly compliment you). It's not like I worked at being tall, although people compliment my height, I had nothing to do with it.
You inherited your good looks @Georgie, so really it is a dumb compliment for me to make.

And to be honest @bridgeburn, when I say it as a joke because you DID successfully regain
your hair, I mean it as a compliment. I was never personally making jokes ABOUT you, so I'm not sure
why you are giving this a like (as I wouldn't joke about rape with a female, because that's a very
fucked up thing to do).

Just like I was complimenting @Georgie for taking the time to take care of herself, because you
definitely do work on your appearance, and at least your not taking a bad thing and "giving up"
on yourself.

To be honest @Georgie, I certainly have NEVER physically forced myself on anybody, and I don't
think that rape is a funny thing. Just like I cannot stand males who physically abuse people.

It is what it is.

I always like @hairblues, and she never liked the fact I used the "B" word. She put me on her ignore
list.

And I'm not going to lie, that DID hurt me, so I PM'ed her and told her I wouldn't do it around her. And I'm
a man of my word.

So, although I never would joke about the second thing with a female (because that would be creepy, and
not cool, and understandably so), you have my word, I will not discuss the second part of that again on any
threads in a joking manner. It is disrespectful, so I completely understand that.

Understood.

I don't want to think that I can read people on an internet forum, because the reality is I cannot do that.

That misunderstanding got me in trouble with @Rudiger, and I thought we were on good terms (but we weren't,
and he is entitled to his opinion of me).

It’s ok. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[Arrade]

I'm sorry to hear that, I really am.

No man should physically impose themselves on ANYBODY, that's just fucked up.

I said the identical twin part as a joke (because it would be very creepy and strange to directly compliment you). It's not like I worked at being tall, although people compliment my height, I had nothing to do with it.
You inherited your good looks @Georgie, so really it is a dumb compliment for me to make.

And to be honest @bridgeburn, when I say it as a joke because you DID successfully regain
your hair, I mean it as a compliment. I was never personally making jokes ABOUT you, so I'm not sure
why you are giving this a like (as I wouldn't joke about rape with a female, because that's a very
fucked up thing to do).

Just like I was complimenting @Georgie for taking the time to take care of herself, because you
definitely do work on your appearance, and at least your not taking a bad thing and "giving up"
on yourself.

To be honest @Georgie, I certainly have NEVER physically forced myself on anybody, and I don't
think that rape is a funny thing. Just like I cannot stand males who physically abuse people.

It is what it is.

I always like @hairblues, and she never liked the fact I used the "B" word. She put me on her ignore
list.

And I'm not going to lie, that DID hurt me, so I PM'ed her and told her I wouldn't do it around her. And I'm
a man of my word.

So, although I never would joke about the second thing with a female (because that would be creepy, and
not cool, and understandably so), you have my word, I will not discuss the second part of that again on any
threads in a joking manner. It is disrespectful, so I completely understand that.

Understood.

I don't want to think that I can read people on an internet forum, because the reality is I cannot do that.

That misunderstanding got me in trouble with @Rudiger, and I thought we were on good terms (but we weren't,
and he is entitled to his opinion of me).

You're typing a lot... is this a side of estrogen

 

[IdealForehead]

Well I just got my genistein in the mail. I'm healing from surgery so wary of new agents. Looked again online to see if it would be safe for my healing. Checked Wikipedia (which apparently I should have done first), and this unfortunately looks like a bust of an agent.

It's an angiogenesis inhibitor. Ie. It blocks blood flow. This is counterproductive to stimulating hair growth.

For example, VEGF is one of the primary stimulators of vascularization and has a positive effect on hair development:

Our study aimed to quantify the cyclic changes of perifollicular vascularization and to characterize the biological role of VEGF for hair growth, angiogenesis, and follicle cycling. We found a significant increase in perifollicular vascularization during the growth phase (anagen) of the hair cycle, followed by regression of angiogenic blood vessels during the involution (catagen) and the resting (telogen) phase. These results identify VEGF as a major mediator of hair follicle growth and cycling and provide the first direct evidence that improved follicle vascularization promotes hair growth and increases hair follicle and hair size.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC199257/
​

The problem is something with anti-angiogenesis behavior will inhibit the positive vascularization needed for hair growth, and this appears to be the case for genistein:

Anti-angiogenic genistein inhibits VEGF-induced endothelial cell activation by decreasing PTK activity and MAPK activation.

Collectively, our findings suggested that the inhibition of PTK activity and MAPK activation and the decrease in MMPs production and activity by genistein interrupt VEGF-stimulated endothelial cell activation, which thereby may represent a mechanism that would explain the anti-angiogenesis effect of genistein and its cancer-protective function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132400
​

Well, you can't win them all. At least it was cheap. Damn shame. An almost pure and easily accessible ER-beta agonist could have been golden. Who knows? Maybe it would still be good if the ER-beta agonism effect outweighs the anti-vascularization effect. But I'm not gonna take that risk.

Looks like equol and estriol are our only good/safe options for ER-beta agonism unless something else can come up.

Wikipedia lists the following as ER-beta agonists:

• 3β-Androstanediol (3β-diol) – endogenous
• 8β-VE2
• AC-186
• Apigenin – phytoestrogen[23]
• Daidzein – phytoestrogen[23]
• DCW234
• Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) – endogenous
• Diarylpropionitrile (DPN)
• ERB-79 and its active enantiomer ERB-26
• ERB-196 (WAY-202196)
• Erteberel (SERBA-1, LY-500307)
• FERb 033 – 62-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[24]
• Genistein – phytoestrogen; 16-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[23]
• Kaempferol – phytoestrogen[23]
• Liquiritigenin (Menerba) – phytoestrogen[23]
• Penduletin – phytoestrogen[23]
• Prinaberel (ERB-041, WAY-202041)
• S-Equol ((S)-4',7-isoflavandiol) – phytoestrogen; 13-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[23]
• WAY-166818
• WAY-200070
• WAY-214156

Maybe there is another good option in there. I'll probably keep looking in my spare time. The problem is most of these agents are likely so experimental, there wouldn't be enough information out there to tell us if there's going to be a problem or not. eg. for FERb 033.

Probably honestly best to stick with estriol and/or equol unless there's a massive element of desperation to experiment. My hair is so stable now, I have no need to take drastic risks. I'd prefer to stick with safer agents.

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead so as of yet things are ok. I haven’t got any pain or discomfort which is a relief, and although it of course is too early to tell, I can’t say that I’ve noticed my hair coming out in fistfuls. If it happens, it will take a few days to a week as has been the case when I’ve switched hrt previously. I actually am amazed that my ovaries feel bizarrely calm for having undergone such a dramamtic hormonal shift. I am bleeding lightly but I excepted this. Boobs are still reacting the same way as usual when I take estrogen (they usually plump up 30 odd minutes after taking it) which is comforting that my body is as leasy in some way responsive.

Good to know. I'm happy to hear. Anyway, be patient with whatever comes. As you know, progress with both hormones and hair must be measured over weeks and months, not hours and days. If this works, the craziness should eventually all taper away after 2-3 months or so and you'll just get a normal functioning body back again. Be sure to get some estriol to help shift the balance even more toward ER-beta.

I'm using this estriol cream now as of a few days ago with a goal of systemic dosing, as I'm trying to facilitate my scar healing. At 1/4 tsp (~2 mg transdermal estriol) applied over my legs and arms, I get a huge hot flash lasting 4-5 hours, signalling it's definitely a biologically significant amount, at least for a man.

To get a smooth action, you'd have to apply in general at least 3-4 times a day.

 

[Arrade]

Good to know. I'm happy to hear. Anyway, be patient with whatever comes. As you know, progress with both hormones and hair must be measured over weeks and months, not hours and days. If this works, the craziness should eventually all taper away after 2-3 months or so and you'll just get a normal functioning body back again. Be sure to get some estriol to help shift the balance even more toward ER-beta.

I'm using this stuff now as of a few days ago with a goal of systemic dosing, as I'm trying to facilitate my scar healing. At 1/4 tsp applied over my legs and arms, I get a huge hot flash signalling it's definitely a biologically significant amount, at least for a man (~2 mg transdermal estriol). To get a smooth action, you'd have to apply in general at least 4 times a day (maybe 1 mg each at morning, lunch, dinner, bed) because each application seems to have a 4-5 hour "bump" which can be felt quite strongly. While I don't particularly care for myself, your goal would of course be more for smooth levels.

Do you get your hormones tested? I'm surprised that you're ok with systemic estro. I'm not judging, I'm just confused with the liberties you take. Plus you sound like someone in their 20's but you're getting surgery. I really want to know what you do for a living or how you look aeesthetically

 

[Zoro]

Do you get your hormones tested? I'm surprised that you're ok with systemic estro. I'm not judging, I'm just confused with the liberties you take. Plus you sound like someone in their 20's but you're getting surgery. I really want to know what you do for a living or how you look aeesthetically

estriol =/= estradiol

 

[IdealForehead]

Do you get your hormones tested? I'm surprised that you're ok with systemic estro. I'm not judging, I'm just confused with the liberties you take. Plus you sound like someone in their 20's but you're getting surgery. I really want to know what you do for a living or how you look aeesthetically

I'm actually in my 30s. I had jaw surgery for an underbite primarily in my 20s. My hair surgery 2 weeks ago is my second major appearance altering surgery. I have some revision jaw surgeries I want to do after this, then I will be happy. Not sure what else I can tell you about my appearance. I'm 5'7.5" and fairly unremarkable looking - basically average I think now that my hairline has been fixed. Would be above average if my jaw is finally fixed.

I always felt wary of estrogen. It's why it took me so long to try it. If I've learned anything from all the drug experimentation I've done on my body in the past 6 months, it's that the body is pretty resilient. I have gotten away with a lot, and that makes me braver to try other things as well. I think estriol is a pretty safe agent. Safer than plenty of other things I've tried. eg. I tried cyproterone at the dose they use to castrate sex offenders for a few weeks, and there were no long lasting problems from it I'm aware of.

I have no interest in getting my hormones tested on any regular basis. I've tested them plenty in the past. I don't really care what my test or estrogen levels are while I'm experimenting with estriol. I would stop estriol if I had a bad reaction or felt like I was developing gyno. Otherwise I don't see any harm. It's got a lot of positive effects.

In the long run, I am guessing I will end up ordering estriol powder and adding 0.1% or less to my usual topical for maintenance. Plus I'll probably continue using it just on my face as a cream for anti-aging. This intentionally systemic dosing I'm doing is temporary.

 

[IdealForehead]

Some more points regarding the use of estriol.

I found a good summary article with good references on doses, risks, benefits, and administration methods of estriol:

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/8/Estriol-Its-Weakness-is-its-Strength/Page-01

Key points:

• Estrogen Quotient = ratio of estriol to the sum of estradiol and estrone (estriol / estrone+estradiol). Higher estriol quotient => less cancer risk. I've read this concept in numerous places now while researching estrogen. Georgie mentioned concern of cancer before. Most things I have read list estriol as protective against estrogen-induced cancer (which is expected given ER-beta predominance).
• Transdermal dosing of estrogen in general is suggested to be safer long term compared to oral dosing. Oral dosing must get processed through the liver once absorbed from the GI tract. The liver metabolizes any estrogen that passes through it into various byproducts which have different biological effects and are eventually excreted, making the oral approach messier and less efficient.
• Pregnancy-level doses of estriol are described as 8 mg/day orally, which would then likely represent the maximum practical dose.

Another good article, though not referenced:

https://www.earlymenopause.com/hrt-estriol/

Key points:

• Standard dosage: ranges from 2 to 8 mg
• Biggest side effect risk of estriol is nausea, which is not surprising, since estriol is most famous as the "pregnancy hormone" and most women get nauseous like crazy during pregnancy. I tried going to 4 mg per day transdermal estriol today (ie. at least 50% of max pregnancy levels) and certainly I am feeling some nausea right now.

Lastly, for menopausal dosing guidelines of all female hormones:

https://www.womensinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Hormone-Chart-Female.pdf

• Estriol cream is listed with a suggested dose range of 1-3 mg estriol (with 25-100 mg progesterone for women) once to twice daily

So we can see a total daily dose range of somewhere between 1-8 mg per day between all these sources.

I think I will probably end up putting estriol 0.05-0.1% in my topical. This will be around 1.5-3 mg estriol per day, given 3 mL solution per day. This is probably my maximum upper limit. Using it topically should focus the effect at the scalp, and at the lower range of these doses, I should be able to tolerate any that goes systemic.

Apparently, some people on Alibaba are selling estriol powder for $82 USD /2 grams. 2 grams would last for years. So it is incredibly cheap as an option with a good and well known safety profile, given that it is a natural human hormone with well known and mostly positive effects on the body.

Given that genistein looks like a bust, and R-equol has 5-AR downregulation effects which may or may not be ideal (neurosteroids, etc.), I am back to thinking topical estriol is again the best way to manipulate estrogenic signalling for hair.

I would much rather use a known, natural compound like estriol instead of a random synthetic agent with no long term safety data and numerous unknown effects. That includes R-equol, given that only S-equol naturally occurs and R-equol is synthetic.

This estrogen business is tricky. Hopefully it's worth it in the end.

 

[Georgie]

Good to know. I'm happy to hear. Anyway, be patient with whatever comes. As you know, progress with both hormones and hair must be measured over weeks and months, not hours and days. If this works, the craziness should eventually all taper away after 2-3 months or so and you'll just get a normal functioning body back again. Be sure to get some estriol to help shift the balance even more toward ER-beta.

I'm using this estriol cream now as of a few days ago with a goal of systemic dosing, as I'm trying to facilitate my scar healing. At 1/4 tsp (~2 mg transdermal estriol) applied over my legs and arms, I get a huge hot flash lasting 4-5 hours, signalling it's definitely a biologically significant amount, at least for a man.

To get a smooth action, you'd have to apply in general at least 3-4 times a day.

For now i am using topical ovestin on m face and hairline. When i use it up, depending on how well i feel the cream has worked, i may switch to tablets.