How to deal with side effects from Propecia
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Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
I think it's time we need to move away from the simplistic T/E model, Enden. There's just too much going on to simply put it down to this. Distorted T/E won't give you all the sides that are associated with PFS. Alot of people for instance, have far more messed up T/E ratios than me but will never have penis atrophy with such ratios.
A huge clue in all of this is that the problems emanate from a DHT inhibitor. So there you go - we're already discussing another hormone. Just look at the reverse chain from DHT:
DHT ---> TESTOSTERONE ---> Androstronedione ---> DHEA
Given that the surpression on DHT changes T levels, this distortion can then send problems further back down the chain. Right back, in fact, to THE CORTISOL PRODUCTION LINE!! (preg,prog,cortisol).
Here's some interesting information for you.
Many users of pregnenolone have helped soften their e2 problems (one guy has lowered his required dose of arimidex hugely as a result...this guy just has natural e2 issues he isn't a PFS victim though)
Apparently Dr Thierry Hertoghe fixed his OWN elevated e2 (which came frmo finasteride!!) by taking oral micronized progesterone.
Dr Crisler says its better and safer to use preg though (the required amount of preg will convert to prog).
You are boosting the cortisol production line here which will help boost the DHT metabolism levels again. DHT metabolism levels are notoriously low on propeciahelp and this is a way to reverse the damage.
As someone wrote above - the most common recovery story is time. No coincidence. This is because finasteride messes up your whole DHT metabolism which downregulates the preg,prog and cortisol. Recovery of same is extremely slow (naturally).
Read this folks:
http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/con ... ostate-101
I still reckon AI's are potentially our most potent tool but you might need to iron out some other issues, too. If, for example, your T/E levels wont remain when you stop the AI, then its because you have root issues which need addressed. Using an AI to artifically control your E2 for a long period of time is simply masking a problem.
It's no surprise they work/help though because at the end of the day an increase in T and decrease in E2 will in itself help reset metabolism.
Ultimately however, IMO many finasteride sufferers need to do several right things if they truely want to fast-track a recovery. This might include fixing their cortisol production line, optimising their thyroids and THEN moving towards fixing a T/E ratio that should now maintain itself naturally.
Enden, you rely on the studies that show that some older hypogondal men regained good T/E levels by arimidex. But remember - they had no root issues artifically developed. They simply had T/E issues that came with age. So although the indications are good, you are being overly simplistic to think the same will work for someone with root problems (bloods will indicate where these lie!!) just as well. The more root problems - the less success they will have. Indeed some guys have developed so many root problems that the AI's create havoc in their endoctine systems. This is where it gets messy.
Enden said:
I think it's time we need to move away from the simplistic T/E model, Enden. There's just too much going on to simply put it down to this. Distorted T/E won't give you all the sides that are associated with PFS. Alot of people for instance, have far more messed up T/E ratios than me but will never have penis atrophy with such ratios.
A huge clue in all of this is that the problems emanate from a DHT inhibitor. So there you go - we're already discussing another hormone. Just look at the reverse chain from DHT:
DHT ---> TESTOSTERONE ---> Androstronedione ---> DHEA
Given that the surpression on DHT changes T levels, this distortion can then send problems further back down the chain. Right back, in fact, to THE CORTISOL PRODUCTION LINE!! (preg,prog,cortisol).
Here's some interesting information for you.
Many users of pregnenolone have helped soften their e2 problems (one guy has lowered his required dose of arimidex hugely as a result...this guy just has natural e2 issues he isn't a PFS victim though)
Apparently Dr Thierry Hertoghe fixed his OWN elevated e2 (which came frmo finasteride!!) by taking oral micronized progesterone.
Dr Crisler says its better and safer to use preg though (the required amount of preg will convert to prog).
You are boosting the cortisol production line here which will help boost the DHT metabolism levels again. DHT metabolism levels are notoriously low on propeciahelp and this is a way to reverse the damage.
As someone wrote above - the most common recovery story is time. No coincidence. This is because finasteride messes up your whole DHT metabolism which downregulates the preg,prog and cortisol. Recovery of same is extremely slow (naturally).
Read this folks:
http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/con ... ostate-101
I still reckon AI's are potentially our most potent tool but you might need to iron out some other issues, too. If, for example, your T/E levels wont remain when you stop the AI, then its because you have root issues which need addressed. Using an AI to artifically control your E2 for a long period of time is simply masking a problem.
It's no surprise they work/help though because at the end of the day an increase in T and decrease in E2 will in itself help reset metabolism.
Ultimately however, IMO many finasteride sufferers need to do several right things if they truely want to fast-track a recovery. This might include fixing their cortisol production line, optimising their thyroids and THEN moving towards fixing a T/E ratio that should now maintain itself naturally.
Enden, you rely on the studies that show that some older hypogondal men regained good T/E levels by arimidex. But remember - they had no root issues artifically developed. They simply had T/E issues that came with age. So although the indications are good, you are being overly simplistic to think the same will work for someone with root problems (bloods will indicate where these lie!!) just as well. The more root problems - the less success they will have. Indeed some guys have developed so many root problems that the AI's create havoc in their endoctine systems. This is where it gets messy.
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
Monty - yes, everyone is affected to differing degrees.
Low testosterone in my view is more difficult to successfully and sustainably remedy than high estrogen though. Either way, AI's should help.
I don't think anyone "got" lucky - some people are just less unlucky.
You say it might be as simple as fixing your testosterone levels. Of course. But in many cases the reason these are low is due to your cortisol production line being significantly compromised. Perhaps thyroids.
I can't remember your bloods personally but you should look at all these things as something might stand out as being a root cause of low testosterone.
Monty - yes, everyone is affected to differing degrees.
Low testosterone in my view is more difficult to successfully and sustainably remedy than high estrogen though. Either way, AI's should help.
I don't think anyone "got" lucky - some people are just less unlucky.
You say it might be as simple as fixing your testosterone levels. Of course. But in many cases the reason these are low is due to your cortisol production line being significantly compromised. Perhaps thyroids.
I can't remember your bloods personally but you should look at all these things as something might stand out as being a root cause of low testosterone.
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
Not sure what you guys are saying about creatine monohydrate. After reading the study you posted it sounds like creatine increases DHT in the body which would mean more hairloss. But you guys are saying using creatine is a positive thing? Can you explain?
Enden said:
Not sure what you guys are saying about creatine monohydrate. After reading the study you posted it sounds like creatine increases DHT in the body which would mean more hairloss. But you guys are saying using creatine is a positive thing? Can you explain?
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
Well, because this thread is about the side effects fro, finasteride. Some people have extremely low DHT levels after coming off the drug which gives some of us all sorts of sexual problems. That's why we are trying to reverse this. Hairloss isn't the issue, we're talking about essential sexual health.
Anyway, DHT isn't what its all about so far as hairloss is concerned anyway, imo.
OhioGuy said:
Well, because this thread is about the side effects fro, finasteride. Some people have extremely low DHT levels after coming off the drug which gives some of us all sorts of sexual problems. That's why we are trying to reverse this. Hairloss isn't the issue, we're talking about essential sexual health.
Anyway, DHT isn't what its all about so far as hairloss is concerned anyway, imo.
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
It's definately a factor but only one. This alone is a reason why it works better for some people than others as i imagine everyone has differing levels of contributing factors to their own male pattern baldness.
The belief that testosterone alone can zap the hair follicles is becoming rather popular for instance.
Sebum is surely also a factor.
It's definately a factor but only one. This alone is a reason why it works better for some people than others as i imagine everyone has differing levels of contributing factors to their own male pattern baldness.
The belief that testosterone alone can zap the hair follicles is becoming rather popular for instance.
Sebum is surely also a factor.
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
Ok I'm also reading that DHT is responsible for many other things in a male's body, not just hairloss. What about men that dont experience male pattern baldness? Do they have DHT but hair isnt susceptible to the hormone?
Ok I'm also reading that DHT is responsible for many other things in a male's body, not just hairloss. What about men that dont experience male pattern baldness? Do they have DHT but hair isnt susceptible to the hormone?
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
You see, this is the post that epitomises how 99% of people taking propecia have no idea what exactly the drug is doing.
OhioGuy, thank you for asking this question.
DHT is a extremely important hormone in the males body. It nourishes the penis etc. Here's a nice overview ;
People with male pattern baldness simply have hair follicles too sensitive to DHT. The fault lies with the hair follicle, not the DHT. Surpressing THE ENTIRE DHT in your body for this purpose, quite frankly, is excessive and not a great solution to hairloss.
In short - everything you happen to read about DHT on here, you'd think it was an evil hormone. The truth? You need DHT more than you need your hair, that's for sure.
OhioGuy said:
You see, this is the post that epitomises how 99% of people taking propecia have no idea what exactly the drug is doing.
OhioGuy, thank you for asking this question.
DHT is a extremely important hormone in the males body. It nourishes the penis etc. Here's a nice overview ;
People with male pattern baldness simply have hair follicles too sensitive to DHT. The fault lies with the hair follicle, not the DHT. Surpressing THE ENTIRE DHT in your body for this purpose, quite frankly, is excessive and not a great solution to hairloss.
In short - everything you happen to read about DHT on here, you'd think it was an evil hormone. The truth? You need DHT more than you need your hair, that's for sure.
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
Estrogen is very low. Have you been using any treatments? What's your testosterone level? If it's low, your testicles may not be responding properly to stimulation. What did your doctor say? Mens Rea is right. "In range" is a bullshit term. Get all the results and ask for more opinions.Propecia said:
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
unfortunately now i have not all test with me, i marked only out of range results.
if i remember well total testo was in the middle and free testo was not very high.
i'm not assuming any treatment except integrators
i haven't see Doctor again, i have to finish other exams
i know that for us "in range" have a bullsh. meaning but that is
Enden said:
unfortunately now i have not all test with me, i marked only out of range results.
if i remember well total testo was in the middle and free testo was not very high.
i'm not assuming any treatment except integrators
i haven't see Doctor again, i have to finish other exams
i know that for us "in range" have a bullsh. meaning but that is
Re: How to deal with side effects from finasteride
"In range" is a bullshit term, because besides from hormones being in range, ratios are the only thing that really matters. Everything could be in range, but still give you a lot of problems.
It's important that you do more tests, and keep track of changes. The LH issue should be investigated further.
"In range" is a bullshit term, because besides from hormones being in range, ratios are the only thing that really matters. Everything could be in range, but still give you a lot of problems.
It's important that you do more tests, and keep track of changes. The LH issue should be investigated further.