Is Anyone Using spironolactone + Duta For Awhile Without Sides?

[itchymadscalp]

@BaldingGuy : I've been on CPA (I'm off for 3 days now) and my testosterone was very very very very very low (under castration levels) ... and I thought it would be ok to lower Dutasteride to just 1 pill a day. It was a disaster and still is. Not because of testosterone obviously but because of dihydrotestosterone produced by the small amount of testosterone I still had. Ok, androgen receptors upregulation can be a part of the problem too.
So maybe Spironolactone will help you, because less testosterone means less DHT, but I'm sure testosterone is not the culprit. Spironolactone is weak AA, but it's still AA, so the reason why you lost you hair (reflex hyperandrogenicity, if it concerns you too) might be the same reason you will lose more if you chose that path.
I made that mistake with Cyproterone. I really didn't know. I'm not saying you will face the same issue, of course not, I can not pretend that ... I really don't know. But I think you should try something else, the hormonale route could do more harm than good. Maybe try Setipiprant ? I don't believe in it but ...
I don't want to convince you, I just want to warn you. And maybe the best decision is to ignore what I just wrote. I really don't know.
Just be careful ... even if it's hard because of the itchy and the hair loss following it.

Older men have more risks to get prostate cancer even if their testosterone levels decline ... why ? Maybe because their testosterone decrease and their tissues or androgen receptors compensate that loss by being more sensitive, sometimes too much = cancer.
Same with Finasteride/Dutasteride/AA and Hair loss ? I'm starting to believe so. But I'm not a scientist.
I'm just saying, be cautious ...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.baldspot/QMaLZ82KIO8

 

[pjhair]

@BaldingGuy : I've been on CPA (I'm off for 3 days now) and my testosterone was very very very very very low (under castration levels) ... and I thought it would be ok to lower Dutasteride to just 1 pill a day. It was a disaster and still is. Not because of testosterone obviously but because of dihydrotestosterone produced by the small amount of testosterone I still had. Ok, androgen receptors upregulation can be a part of the problem too.
So maybe Spironolactone will help you, because less testosterone means less DHT, but I'm sure testosterone is not the culprit. Spironolactone is weak AA, but it's still AA, so the reason why you lost you hair (reflex hyperandrogenicity, if it concerns you too) might be the same reason you will lose more if you chose that path.
I made that mistake with Cyproterone. I really didn't know. I'm not saying you will face the same issue, of course not, I can not pretend that ... I really don't know. But I think you should try something else, the hormonale route could do more harm than good. Maybe try Setipiprant ? I don't believe in it but ...
I don't want to convince you, I just want to warn you. And maybe the best decision is to ignore what I just wrote. I really don't know.
Just be careful ... even if it's hard because of the itchy and the hair loss following it.

Older men have more risks to get prostate cancer even if their testosterone levels decline ... why ? Maybe because their testosterone decrease and their tissues or androgen receptors compensate that loss by being more sensitive, sometimes too much = cancer.
Same with Finasteride/Dutasteride/AA and Hair loss ? I'm starting to believe so. But I'm not a scientist.
I'm just saying, be cautious ...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.baldspot/QMaLZ82KIO8

I think your speculation that it's the androgen receptor sensitivity to dht that caused us to lose hair is correct. So can people like us benefit from meds that down-regulate or degrade androgen receptor themselves? Are there any meds that do that?

 

[itchymadscalp]

@pjhair : I don't know. There are drugs like Bicalutamide or Enzalutamide that compete with androgen receptors ... but it's not the same as "down-regulate", "degrade" or even "repair" androgen receptors ... and they cannot be in a long term use because after some time I read they don't work anymore.

I would love a drug that could "reset" our androgen receptors ... because now I'm a bit afraid of the future (hair loss, prostate, ...).

 

[pjhair]

@pjhair : I don't know. There are drugs like Bicalutamide or Enzalutamide that compete with androgen receptors ... but it's not the same as "down-regulate", "degrade" or even "repair" androgen receptors ... and they cannot be in a long term use because after some time I read they don't work anymore.

I would love a drug that could "reset" our androgen receptors ... because now I'm a bit afraid of the future (hair loss, prostate, ...).

I am not sure it's even possible to reset our androgen receptors to pre-finasteride days. Doctors aren't even sure whether number of receptors also go up. So a cure may possibly have to bring down the number of receptors in addition to sensitivity back to it's pre finasteride days.

Androgen receptor sensitivity might also explain why some women get hit by androgenetic alopecia. They already have a very low level of testosterone and dht in their body and yet they get hair loss. Receptor sensitivity might explain why. @EvilLocks have you looked into it?

 

[itchymadscalp]

Maybe we could try to increase our testosterone levels to a point androgen receptors cannot take it anymore ...
If low testosterone make them sensitive, maybe high levels make them less sensitive (again, I always read the opposite, so I'm certainly wrong, but I want to find a way out).


"The development and progression of prostate cancer depends on androgenic stimulation. As such, prostate cancer is treated by depriving tumors of androgens such as DHT and testosterone or blocking their actions. However, the effect of this type of treatment is transient, as patients relapse after developing a castration-resistant form of the disease that is usually due to increased levels of AR expression or mutations that cause the AR to be resistant to antiandrogens."

 

[BaldingGuy]

You are absolutely right in every word you said!! It is a risky path but I'm losing all my hair anyway... I may end up screwed by it but what gives me hope is that male pattern baldness is a such weird disease that even though I'm 100% positive that i lost more hair on fina it may end up working ...
My biggest fear when I took my first Duta pill was that if i was "shedding" like hell on Fina, Duta being a stronger AR blocker for sure it would make me shed even more since it would make my receptors upregulate more... But no, these last 30 days were the best I had in terms of shedding and itching since April'17...
These last 2-3 days were not that good and I'm worried that it will start all over again, but maybe I just need to up my dose like you said...

The thing is that I don't know what will happen if I don't try spironolactone. When the day comes that I have to buzz my hair because i hate how it looks then it's game over. Until then I have to keep trying stronger things because normal treatments won't work...

As for seti, I just lost 100 pills of spironolactone because they didn't get through customs, I don't think I'm willing to lose 300-400 bucks worth of seti.. Maybe if it was cheaper i would try just for the chance of it going through.. But even then its tricky because I may get one batch and may not get the next and you lose the seti gains pretty quickly... Maybe in the future, who knows..

Since I can get a prescription for spironolactone i can go to a legit pharmacy and purchase it with no worries.. Is there any medication that uses seti as it active ingredient?? If there is i'll try to get a prescription for it

 

[pjhair]

Maybe we could try to increase our testosterone levels to a point androgen receptors cannot take it anymore ...
If low testosterone make them sensitive, maybe high levels make them less sensitive (again, I always read the opposite, so I'm certainly wrong, but I want to find a way out).

Not sure if that will work. My testesterone level went up at puberty but AR sensitivity remained the same till the age of 26.5 when I took finasteride. I fear more testesterone will only make things worse.

 

[itchymadscalp]

Not sure if that will work. My testesterone level went up at puberty but AR sensitivity remained the same till the age of 26.5 when I took finasteride. I fear more testesterone will only make things worse.

I think I'm going to try to increase my testosterone level if nothing work ... just because I'm curious in fact, I want to know what will happen exactly (I can guess actually, but ... maybe).

 

[pjhair]

I think I'm going to try to increase my testosterone level if nothing work ... just because I'm curious in fact, I want to know what will happen exactly (I can guess actually, but ... maybe).

Unfortunately, that may be the only thing left. But excessive testosterone has it's own set of side effects including hair loss.

 

[itchymadscalp]

@pjhair : yeah but if there is nothing I can do to save my hair I would be honored to serve as a guinea pig for science.
Ok I'm saying non sense. Really time to sleep, thank you for the discussion.

 

[pjhair]

@pjhair : yeah but if there is nothing I can do to save my hair I would be honored to serve as a guinea pig for science.
Ok I'm saying non sense. Really time to sleep, thank you for the discussion.

Good luck with your plan bro. Please keep us posted if you do decide yo go that route. If my hair loss gets bad in future, I will also experiment with different methods and post the results on this forum.

 

[Georgie]

Hey, I’m female but I’ll chime in. I took spironolactone 200mg for almost a year a couple of years back. Never made any difference whatsoever, but it did make me really skinny and dehydrated. I looked pale and sunken with dry skin and dark circles under my eyes. I stopped because it was ineffective other than to make me sick. I’ve been on oral minoxidil and topical minoxidil the whole time also, plus Diane35 the pill. Never stopped loss. Recently I’ve been taking avodart/Dutasteride coming up to 3 months. Had a shed for 4 weeks at the one month mark, and it made my skin a little dry and itchy for a while plus dry eyes, also it seems to increase my libido. This may be TMI but I was having some issues with breakthrough bleeding constantly on the pill and it’s totally stopped that. No stoppage of hairloss or regrowth. Recently (now almost 3 weeks) I’ve been using topical darolutamide. No changes, but the dry eyes are back.
Seems nothing stops my hairloss.

 

[pjhair]

Hey, I’m female but I’ll chime in. I took spironolactone 200mg for almost a year a couple of years back. Never made any difference whatsoever, but it did make me really skinny and dehydrated. I looked pale and sunken with dry skin and dark circles under my eyes. I stopped because it was ineffective other than to make me sick. I’ve been on oral minoxidil and topical minoxidil the whole time also, plus Diane35 the pill. Never stopped loss. Recently I’ve been taking avodart/Dutasteride coming up to 3 months. Had a shed for 4 weeks at the one month mark, and it made my skin a little dry and itchy for a while plus dry eyes, also it seems to increase my libido. This may be TMI but I was having some issues with breakthrough bleeding constantly on the pill and it’s totally stopped that. No stoppage of hairloss or regrowth. Recently (now almost 3 weeks) I’ve been using topical darolutamide. No changes, but the dry eyes are back.
Seems nothing stops my hairloss.

At what age did your hairloss start? Was it triggered by some med? In my case it was started by finasteride.

I am just speculating here but even though you are a female, the cause of hair loss may be the same for you and people like @itchymadscalp and I who experienced androgenicity. The reason I say this is because as you are a women, the level of testosterone and dht should be very low in you. Additionally, you took meds like spironolactone which bring down the testosterone level even lower. The fact that you are still losing hair at such low levels of testosterone and dht indicates your hairloss is either not androgen related OR like us, you have highly upregulated androgen receptors that are extremely sensitive and responds to even very low level of androgens.

Out of curiosity, are you sure your hair loss is androgen related? Have you ruled out all other causes?

 

[Georgie]

At what age did your hairloss start? Was it triggered by some med? In my case it was started by finasteride.

I am just speculating here but even though you are a female, the cause of hair loss may be the same for you and people like @itchymadscalp and I who experienced androgenicity. The reason I say this is because as you are a women, the level of testosterone and dht should be very low in you. Additionally, you took meds like spironolactone which bring down the testosterone level even lower. The fact that you are still losing hair at such low levels of testosterone and dht indicates your hairloss is either not androgen related OR like us, you have highly upregulated androgen receptors that are extremely sensitive and responds to even very low level of androgens.

Out of curiosity, are you sure your hair loss is androgen related? Have you ruled out all other causes?

God I’ve been through this spiel too many times.

To sum it up, yes, I have Androgenetic Alopecia, and It’s been diagnosed via scalp biopsy.
I went through menopause at 21, so the issue for me was losing my estrogen, and becoming vulnerable to male hormones which were not even a high level. So, the pill which I take as HRT because I’m so young gives me the estrogen, but it doesn’t get rid of DHT. My testosterone levels were not ever elevated, so I doubt spironolactone was ever the right choice for me. Hopefully a 5AR and darolutamide helps otherwise I’m literally fucked. So far it’s not looking promising.

 

[itchymadscalp]

You should try Bicalutamide, it stops the body from being 'sensitive' to testosterone by blocking it at its receptors. Considering your T levels aren't high but youre extremely sensitive to it, it may help you.

I tried, it made things a lot worse.

And in a long term use it could do more harm than good.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20058237

"Prolonged treatment with bicalutamide induces androgen receptor overexpression and androgen hypersensitivity."

And Bicalutamide is weaker than DHT on Androgen Receptor (5 times weaker if I'm right).

 

[Georgie]

You should try Bicalutamide, it stops the body from being 'sensitive' to testosterone by blocking it at its receptors. Considering your T levels aren't high but youre extremely sensitive to it, it may help you.

Maybe you should try 1-2g Sulfasalazine (from Inhouse) ... or TM30089 or Setipiprant :/

I’m already on Daine35 (strongest, highest estrogen dose birth control), 2.5mg oral minoxidil, 5% topical minoxidil twice daily, topical darolutamide 0.015% daily, 0.5mg avodart daily, stemoxydine 1-2 times a day, derma stamping once a week, and I also use bimatoprost on the very top of my head once a day. Technically darolutamide alone should do the f*****g job since it’s the strongest anti androgen know to man but sh*t is still getting worse. My next step is to f*** around with topical estrogen. The step after that is off a chair with a noose around my neck. Not willing to do Seti because it’s expensive and you need incredibly high doses for it to work.

 

[Georgie]

@Georgie : I really think the hormonal route is the worst in our cases ... If even Dutasteride and others AA don't work for you ... it's game over.
I tried high dose estrogel ... never helped.
When Seti will be cheaper, or something else. Why not try Sulfasalazine ? Just 1g a day, it's not so expensive (inhouse pharmacy).

Yeah but how many people has that worked for? Are you using it? I also don’t want to go suppressing my immune system to th the point where I’m struck down but literally every bug I come acrossz

 

[itchymadscalp]

I'm going to use sulfa ... I already used it before and I had regrowth, but I stopped because ... I don't really know. I thought I was finally immune to hair loss.
Ok, maybe Estradiol topical will help you, but I doubt.

 

[Georgie]

I'm going to use sulfa ... I already used it before and I had regrowth, but I stopped because ... I don't really know. I thought I was finally immune to hair loss.
Ok, maybe Estradiol topical will help you, but I doubt.

I haven’t heard of anyone who’s used it and had success. Otherwise I might consider it

 

[itchymadscalp]

@Georgie : You're totally right ... no success to mention. But I'm desperate and I really want to try everything I can (I'm low on money) ... And in 2015 I had lot of regrowth for 6 months and I was on sulfasalazine, spironolactone, oral minoxidil, then months after months I lost everything. And the only thing I stopped was Sulfasalazine ... So maybe it was THE thing that helped me. Maybe not, I can't say, I really don't know, but desperate situations make us do desperate things (like when I started Cyproterone 50mg, Estradiol 4mg, Estrogel, ...).
I hope you will find a solution ... Hair loss is really hard for me, I'm a man ... I still can't accept it. And you're woman, it's must be harder :/