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There are many reason why a paper isn't published. They are all listed in that link:
I know this by experience.
I know this by experience.
Kintor Pharmaceuticals Furthers Baldness Treatment Drugs In Us And China
- Thread starter bekeero
- Start date
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- 179
i have been staying silent about this and mostly because i too have had tremendous hope in this new treatment but i do think once again many people will be heavily dissapointment. people should look closer qt kintor they are a highly suspicious actor.
thsy claimed 90% reduction in mortality with proxilutamide which would be utterly outstanding. but where did they conduct the trials and where are they pushing for market approval? brazil, thailand, certainly not western counrries per say, they have been heavily critiziced by researchers for dubious trials not just the results are questions but the methods and ethics are critiqued as well
www.bmj.com
brazilian.report
www.science.org
this is a massive red flag for kintor. so whatever results they publish on pyrilutamide i would advice to be suspicious of them. this trial is even done in china, if rhey dont publish the methology they can literally claim anything
if everything was solid in the covid trials why did they not clear up those confusions by publishjng all of the data?
also looking at topical anti androgens and pyrilutamide i just cannot see how thsy could at all compete with finasteride without havinf systemic side effects. and those sides do not just affect dht which most men can tolerate which we have learned by randomized placebo controlled trials, they affect the action of all androgens in all tissues so i highly doubt thaz there was not a single sexual adverse event.
i am just as hopeful about this as you all but its a chinese compqny, its not racist to suggest that chinese corporations are one of the most aggressive and manipulative on the planet and that a pass from their FDA equivalent means jack sh*t
no on the contrary thsy are applying for phase 2 in the US as well with the fda and they will be very careful considering media coverage of kintor recently. i think it is a good sign thag they are applying here since this would not make sense if their claims about efficacy and safety do not hold up, it would just be a waste of time.
but i do not believe they have been truthful about covid trials and you know this business, how many times does this have to happen?? first everyone is hyped about a treatment and then it completely fails, this has happened in this area every. single. time.
so i would not be suprised at all, definitely do not plan anything around it, get on finasteride if you can tolerate it, try dose ranging, topical, eucapil, oral or topical minoxidil, certainly do not wait for a treament like this because the words of a company mean absolutely nothing, i have been dissapointed so many times and so are you
if kintor fails we have nothing to look forward to for the next 5-10 years. literally nothing. it might very well be the case that in 2030 there will be no replacement of finasteride. imagine going on this forum and telling that to the people in 2005 when they thoight hair cloning was just 5 years off. some of these people are old men now, some are probably dead now, thats how much time has passed.
thsy claimed 90% reduction in mortality with proxilutamide which would be utterly outstanding. but where did they conduct the trials and where are they pushing for market approval? brazil, thailand, certainly not western counrries per say, they have been heavily critiziced by researchers for dubious trials not just the results are questions but the methods and ethics are critiqued as well
Covid-19: Trial of experimental “covid cure” is among worst medical ethics violations in Brazil’s history, says regulator
Violations of medical ethics and human rights committed in a trial of an experimental drug touted by President Jair Bolsonaro as a cure for covid-19 were the worst in Brazil’s history, the country’s research regulator has said.1 The clinical trial of proxalutamide “disrespected almost the...
Brazilian military hospital held illegal proxalutamide trials
The HBMPA military hospital in the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre reportedly administered androgen receptor antagonist proxalutamide.
brazilian.report
Science | AAAS
www.science.org
this is a massive red flag for kintor. so whatever results they publish on pyrilutamide i would advice to be suspicious of them. this trial is even done in china, if rhey dont publish the methology they can literally claim anything
if everything was solid in the covid trials why did they not clear up those confusions by publishjng all of the data?
also looking at topical anti androgens and pyrilutamide i just cannot see how thsy could at all compete with finasteride without havinf systemic side effects. and those sides do not just affect dht which most men can tolerate which we have learned by randomized placebo controlled trials, they affect the action of all androgens in all tissues so i highly doubt thaz there was not a single sexual adverse event.
i am just as hopeful about this as you all but its a chinese compqny, its not racist to suggest that chinese corporations are one of the most aggressive and manipulative on the planet and that a pass from their FDA equivalent means jack sh*t
no on the contrary thsy are applying for phase 2 in the US as well with the fda and they will be very careful considering media coverage of kintor recently. i think it is a good sign thag they are applying here since this would not make sense if their claims about efficacy and safety do not hold up, it would just be a waste of time.
but i do not believe they have been truthful about covid trials and you know this business, how many times does this have to happen?? first everyone is hyped about a treatment and then it completely fails, this has happened in this area every. single. time.
so i would not be suprised at all, definitely do not plan anything around it, get on finasteride if you can tolerate it, try dose ranging, topical, eucapil, oral or topical minoxidil, certainly do not wait for a treament like this because the words of a company mean absolutely nothing, i have been dissapointed so many times and so are you
if kintor fails we have nothing to look forward to for the next 5-10 years. literally nothing. it might very well be the case that in 2030 there will be no replacement of finasteride. imagine going on this forum and telling that to the people in 2005 when they thoight hair cloning was just 5 years off. some of these people are old men now, some are probably dead now, thats how much time has passed.
I do understand the situation well. Remember, that if you have doubts of the trials in China, they are also conducting trials in the US. So in due time we will be seeing everything we need to see if not from the China trial, then at least from the US FDA trial.
John Difool also just posted a link as to some of the many reasons a paper isn't published. I am also aware of those magazines you listed.
My point is that we should make not make assumptions too soon about whether they are suspicious or not. I believe we should give them time, they have been moving at rapid speed, so let's allow them some time.
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i think topical AA is not gonna work in itself. youremember CB studies? after 6 months they had superior resulrs to finasteride then it went tk sh*t. that is why you make later phase trials longer. dhtbinding affinity is insane and you need to deal with dht by reducing it not trying to compete with it.
so long studies are important. how long was the kinto phase 2? 6 months!
hoe long will their phase 3 be? a whopping 5 months
people say uhh look kintor is off the races so quick to market blablabla. but at cost of proper clinical evidence. 5 month phase 3 trial for hair loss is HIGHLY suspicious, thwy want to make money asap or they want to hide the fact that just like CB, topical AA do f*** all after a while.
their degrader might work but given the shady tactics by kintor in many areas i actually doubt their claims that it will not go systemic. why would it not? what is the pharmacological explanation for it? for clascoterone its metabolization to a non anti andeogenic corticosteroid and precursor of cortisol. for topicalutamide its bc it is hydrophobic. what is their explanation? and what is rheir explanation for pyrilutamide not going systemic while we are at it?
they say their motivation is an anti androgen withiut sexual sides but why would a potenr AA with high affinity used at 5% not cause sexual sides in some? RU does that too even tho its supposedly weaker. and what if you need to cover a large area?
so long studies are important. how long was the kinto phase 2? 6 months!
hoe long will their phase 3 be? a whopping 5 months
people say uhh look kintor is off the races so quick to market blablabla. but at cost of proper clinical evidence. 5 month phase 3 trial for hair loss is HIGHLY suspicious, thwy want to make money asap or they want to hide the fact that just like CB, topical AA do f*** all after a while.
their degrader might work but given the shady tactics by kintor in many areas i actually doubt their claims that it will not go systemic. why would it not? what is the pharmacological explanation for it? for clascoterone its metabolization to a non anti andeogenic corticosteroid and precursor of cortisol. for topicalutamide its bc it is hydrophobic. what is their explanation? and what is rheir explanation for pyrilutamide not going systemic while we are at it?
they say their motivation is an anti androgen withiut sexual sides but why would a potenr AA with high affinity used at 5% not cause sexual sides in some? RU does that too even tho its supposedly weaker. and what if you need to cover a large area?
i have been staying silent about this and mostly because i too have had tremendous hope in this new treatment but i do think once again many people will be heavily dissapointment. people should look closer qt kintor they are a highly suspicious actor.
thsy claimed 90% reduction in mortality with proxilutamide which would be utterly outstanding. but where did they conduct the trials and where are they pushing for market approval? brazil, thailand, certainly not western counrries per say, they have been heavily critiziced by researchers for dubious trials not just the results are questions but the methods and ethics are critiqued as well
Covid-19: Trial of experimental “covid cure” is among worst medical ethics violations in Brazil’s history, says regulator
Violations of medical ethics and human rights committed in a trial of an experimental drug touted by President Jair Bolsonaro as a cure for covid-19 were the worst in Brazil’s history, the country’s research regulator has said.1 The clinical trial of proxalutamide “disrespected almost the...
Brazilian military hospital held illegal proxalutamide trials
The HBMPA military hospital in the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre reportedly administered androgen receptor antagonist proxalutamide.
Science | AAAS
this is a massive red flag for kintor. so whatever results they publish on pyrilutamide i would advice to be suspicious of them. this trial is even done in china, if rhey dont publish the methology they can literally claim anything
if everything was solid in the covid trials why did they not clear up those confusions by publishjng all of the data?
also looking at topical anti androgens and pyrilutamide i just cannot see how thsy could at all compete with finasteride without havinf systemic side effects. and those sides do not just affect dht which most men can tolerate which we have learned by randomized placebo controlled trials, they affect the action of all androgens in all tissues so i highly doubt thaz there was not a single sexual adverse event.
i am just as hopeful about this as you all but its a chinese compqny, its not racist to suggest that chinese corporations are one of the most aggressive and manipulative on the planet and that a pass from their FDA equivalent means jack sh*t
no on the contrary thsy are applying for phase 2 in the US as well with the fda and they will be very careful considering media coverage of kintor recently. i think it is a good sign thag they are applying here since this would not make sense if their claims about efficacy and safety do not hold up, it would just be a waste of time.
but i do not believe they have been truthful about covid trials and you know this business, how many times does this have to happen?? first everyone is hyped about a treatment and then it completely fails, this has happened in this area every. single. time.
so i would not be suprised at all, definitely do not plan anything around it, get on finasteride if you can tolerate it, try dose ranging, topical, eucapil, oral or topical minoxidil, certainly do not wait for a treament like this because the words of a company mean absolutely nothing, i have been dissapointed so many times and so are you
if kintor fails we have nothing to look forward to for the next 5-10 years. literally nothing. it might very well be the case that in 2030 there will be no replacement of finasteride. imagine going on this forum and telling that to the people in 2005 when they thoight hair cloning was just 5 years off. some of these people are old men now, some are probably dead now, thats how much time has passed.
I think you are leaving out crucial info and context here that may exonerate Kintor somewhat IF what they are saying about the irregularities and violations in these trials were true. It is very important to note that Kintor was originally developing (as it still is) proxalutamide for prostate and breast cancer and the reason why it was trialed for COVID-19 in the first place was because Flavio Cadegiani, endocrinologist at the biotech company Applied Biology (a company that does have a history of touting unproven COVID-19 medications), and his team produced a report in February of the drug's supposed effectiveness in treating COVID-19 symptoms and clearing the virus much faster.
After being encouraged by these results Kintor teamed up with Applied Biology to produce these COVID-19 trials where Cadegiani served as clinical director and main author of the trials. I also can't find exact confirmation of this, but the fact that all of the authors of the covid-19 study were effectively Applied Biology researchers + a couple of Brazilian scientists, leads me to believe that Kintor essentially handed over the conducting of the trials to Cadegiani and his team. If these trials do turn out to be indeed fabricated/ fraudulent, a lot of it can probably be attributed to Cadegiani and his company, even though it doesn't absolve Kintor's fault of working with such a company in a first place.
However, as for the covid-19 trials themselves, the only reason that these magazines and institutes are rejecting the study is because "it's too good to be true". It may be a good reason, as historically such claims have turned out to be fraudulent, however I'm not seeing any constructive criticism or outright debunking of the study yet, other than the ethical violations charges, which while still egregious if true, does not necessarily speak to the efficiency of the drug.
This is also not true. They are currently in the midst of a phase III trial for proxalutamide for COVID-19 therapy that is being conducted in the US and approved by the FDA parallel to a phase III that is being conducted in Brazil. They are also currently seeking approval from regulatory agencies in different countries in Europe and Asia. Ergo, the claim that they are purposefully "avoiding" western countries and pushing for approval only in countries like Brazil and Thailand is plain false. In a few months time, we should have official data on this drug from its US trials where all doubts will either be dispelled or proven correct.
All of this is to say, I don't know whether or not these drugs work either, but it's a more complex picture than the one you're painting by just throwing a few controversies together without putting them into context and elaborating on them. The only thing I do know is that Kintor is pushing for trials and approval in western countries parallel to their trials in China for nearly all of their drugs. For the life of me, I personally can't understand why they would do that if they are planning to manufacture their trial results in China for all of their drugs as you seemingly are trying to accuse them of, when they can't "fake it till we make it" with foreign regulatory bodies. These US trials are going to be either make it or break it for each of their drugs and the fact that they are pursuing them so aggressively, at least to me, speaks a lot on their desire to be fully transparent. Only time will tell.
Also, you are again intentionally painting a damning picture based on false assumptions. They are not currently applying for phase II in the US, their phase II trial for pyrilutamide in the US was already greenlit back in July and patients are currently being enrolled. Chalking it up to them doing it because they need to be "very careful considering media coverage recently" is just bad faith at this point considering that Kintor had laid out its plans for US trial application and approval long before any news of their COVID-19 trials controversy came out.
the hypotheses are not very many.
either kintor is reliable or it isn't.
There have been many burns on this forum, thin hope is often worse than the absence of hope.
of course we can imagine that they are not serious as regards the treatment of the covid while they are serious for that for the Androgenetic Alopecia but only time will tell us the truth.
personally by now I am of the idea that at the slightest ambiguity it is necessary to abstract oneself from judgment in order not to further harm oneself, there are obscure processes within the large pharmaceutical companies - and covid has taught us this - let alone in the minor ones.
I have no intention of poisoning the wells but after samumed (which seemed reliable at least from the communication side) I would like to do less harm.
in extreme doomer mode I would say that as long as the big pharmaceutical companies do not deal with the problem of baldness we will have very little hope of seeing anything, I just hope I'm wrong
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- 179
my line of thought is this:
with CB there was much more reason to be hopeful, it was a clear established compound thaz had a lot of data on it, cassiopea as a european pharma startup, it was clear why it would not cause sides because it is a corticosteroid with agonistic properties against the AR. with pyrilutamide, i see many more possibikities to get dissappinted. starting with why would it not have systemic sexual sides as they claim? what is so special about this anti androgen? this is never mentioned in the patent whereas for CB is was very clearly communicated. their entire marketing is built aroud a need for something wirhout sexual sides so they must basically claim this.
and what about the trial duration? phase 3 5 months is total garbage and wont tell anybody anything.
that combines with apparent reckless behavior in clinical trials and probable exaggeration in other studies.
and that all keeping in mind that in 30 years, we have ALWAYS been let down. not one exception. not one. and there were so many promising drugs over the years its f*****g insane. why would this topical AA suddenly be the barer of hope, its just a derivate of proxilutamide, a drug that is used for chemical castration. it has a long systemic half life and accumulates in tissues and an active metabolite. ifyou are dissuse thinning you have to use much higher dose than studies and you will have even more drug accumulation. this is total garbage.
im glad they are trying it but i think transparency is not their strong suit at all. even for the degraded, they say "because of it properties it cannot go systemic ans onlx has to be dosed once a week"
what properties? i am not aware of such properties with standard protac drugs at all, their entire evidence is from animal studies that are also kept secret of course unlike cassiopea
with CB there was much more reason to be hopeful, it was a clear established compound thaz had a lot of data on it, cassiopea as a european pharma startup, it was clear why it would not cause sides because it is a corticosteroid with agonistic properties against the AR. with pyrilutamide, i see many more possibikities to get dissappinted. starting with why would it not have systemic sexual sides as they claim? what is so special about this anti androgen? this is never mentioned in the patent whereas for CB is was very clearly communicated. their entire marketing is built aroud a need for something wirhout sexual sides so they must basically claim this.
and what about the trial duration? phase 3 5 months is total garbage and wont tell anybody anything.
that combines with apparent reckless behavior in clinical trials and probable exaggeration in other studies.
and that all keeping in mind that in 30 years, we have ALWAYS been let down. not one exception. not one. and there were so many promising drugs over the years its f*****g insane. why would this topical AA suddenly be the barer of hope, its just a derivate of proxilutamide, a drug that is used for chemical castration. it has a long systemic half life and accumulates in tissues and an active metabolite. ifyou are dissuse thinning you have to use much higher dose than studies and you will have even more drug accumulation. this is total garbage.
im glad they are trying it but i think transparency is not their strong suit at all. even for the degraded, they say "because of it properties it cannot go systemic ans onlx has to be dosed once a week"
what properties? i am not aware of such properties with standard protac drugs at all, their entire evidence is from animal studies that are also kept secret of course unlike cassiopea
Why would they be pushing forward 3 trials for it in the USA then? Acne and 2x Androgenetic Alopecia phase 2 are greenlit in the USA. If there was bunk science or poor methodology then the FDA wouldn't have already approved phase 2 after the USA phase 1 was successful.'
You can literally go look at the data yourself instead of posting bull sh*t. The phase 1 report has all the measurable serum levels by dose, including the trace serum concentrations by hour for all tested doses. We can literally see that the tested dose serum concentration was not measurable, while 2.5x the dose is where it becomes measurable in serum. So what are you even talking about?
While i dont like at all what happened with proxa covid trials, now kintor has no other choice than being transparent and is reassuring they are going the FDA pathway for kx as well.
About long term effectiveness, when merck released propecia 5 year study people started panicking and making all sort of graphics and projections about hair count decline at the 10 year mark.
But Rossi 10 year finas study showed hair count not being the only way to measure how cosmetically significant it was long term. Well taken baseline pics vs trial end is the definitive proof of how well things are going.
Thats why cassiopea phase 2 results may not be representative of the long term potential of CB.
Of course if your hairloss is agressive pyrilutamide alone may not be able to hold all the hair, like with every other drug. Stacking sounds like the better choice for that scenario.
About sides, nobody knows. @badnewsbearer , stop with the broscience, you are talking out off your arse here.
About long term effectiveness, when merck released propecia 5 year study people started panicking and making all sort of graphics and projections about hair count decline at the 10 year mark.
But Rossi 10 year finas study showed hair count not being the only way to measure how cosmetically significant it was long term. Well taken baseline pics vs trial end is the definitive proof of how well things are going.
Thats why cassiopea phase 2 results may not be representative of the long term potential of CB.
Of course if your hairloss is agressive pyrilutamide alone may not be able to hold all the hair, like with every other drug. Stacking sounds like the better choice for that scenario.
About sides, nobody knows. @badnewsbearer , stop with the broscience, you are talking out off your arse here.
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He is actually making valid points imo.
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Except for the CB part.
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yeah i think cb is sh*t too. iam honestly pretty sad about this
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what do you mean? like it took 30 years to get a topical anti androgen thaz does not even work as good as finasteride and still needs to be stacked with other drugs?? then that is not a maintenance treatment. who in their right mind would spend 1000$ a year to rub a topical into sour head twice a day just to have to stack it with other sh*t too? most people would never commit to that. andgood to know it will be so weak so thaz people with actual hair loss cant even benefit.and you are just plain wrong, hair count and hair weight and anagen telogen ratio are the only thing that mattersx pictures are pretty much useless, not usekess but theyunderlie more error and are not as exact. hair could and diamter are true indicators and how can yoi have a drug and sell it as a hair loss treatmenr when you do not know if it works for even a year??
i think the real genuine treatment to replace finasteride ia still 10 years a way and it will be a method of locally silencing the 5AR and AR gene either by crisproff methylation or by iRNA or microRNA posttranscriptional inhibition. like Olix seema promising. maybea combination of topical AA and the degrader can be useful. ifit does not go systemic of course
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I believe it's already the case with the "Big 3". There is a reason it's not called the "Only 1".
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i dont think pyrilutamide can replace finasteride and thats pathetic as f***
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I tried googling "can pyrilutamide replace finasteride" and couldn't find any relevant results. Do you mind sharing your source?
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Guys, you have stated your views. No need to dig deeper in your madness.
We know sh*t at the moment. Just that Kintor moves fast and isnt that public about it. Remember applements? They released really nice study, a lot of communication, nice websites. Pictures of great hair growth in the study. Plenty of guys ordered that sh*t just to later find out they released pictures of people on minoxidil just as an example of hair growth... You can never be sure. Also it means sh*t if the company is from Europe, USA, Japan or Asia. All are guilty of hair loss bullshit and anyone can get something new. China does not struggle with some ethics and their chemical industry is booming + they have funds. Wouldnt be surprised if it would be them to find something new.
Lets keep the chat about the mechanism of how it works and further info about their progress. Edgy memes are welcome though.
We know sh*t at the moment. Just that Kintor moves fast and isnt that public about it. Remember applements? They released really nice study, a lot of communication, nice websites. Pictures of great hair growth in the study. Plenty of guys ordered that sh*t just to later find out they released pictures of people on minoxidil just as an example of hair growth... You can never be sure. Also it means sh*t if the company is from Europe, USA, Japan or Asia. All are guilty of hair loss bullshit and anyone can get something new. China does not struggle with some ethics and their chemical industry is booming + they have funds. Wouldnt be surprised if it would be them to find something new.
Lets keep the chat about the mechanism of how it works and further info about their progress. Edgy memes are welcome though.
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This is the best I've learned about this drug, thanks to @pegasus2. Since then, everyone else has tried to avoid reading his post and keep posting BS about the company and the product or even the country where it's been developed. It's embarrassing beyond belief.
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What field are you in?There are many reason why a paper isn't published. They are all listed in that link:
I know this by experience.