New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[ganonford]

for a 100 ml solution I wouldn't add more than 5 1000ug pills. The systemic daily usage of b12 is only 2.5ug for the entire body. 5 pills will yield 50 ug/ml which even is way overkill, I had mixed 10 pills into a 100ml bottle before, but it was borderline insanity ... the in vitro study above used an upper bound level of 25ug per ml... since a minoxidil bottle has only 60ml, 2-3 pills (1000ug per pill) would be more than enough, this also reflects how cheap and easy this simple addition is

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[closetmetrosexual]

Also, good luck to everyone on this experiment, I will not be posting here more as I am aware I don't have Androgenetic Alopecia but something much worse. I lost almost all my hair now, so depressed.

Oh man, what a bummer.
We feel for you.

Maybe if you are lucky (inappropriate word to use in this context, I know) whatever you have can be cured (unlike standard male pattern baldness).

I hope it works out for you eventually, bro.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

He said to add some pills, two 1k mcg pills will be enough, but three to make sure, into a bottle of minoxidil, I assume the regular Kirkland one.

Also, good luck to everyone on this experiment, I will not be posting here more as I am aware I don't have Androgenetic Alopecia but something much worse. I lost almost all my hair now, so depressed.

I hope things work out for you mate. Good luck and thanks for your contributions here

 

[odalbak]

I will not be posting here more as I am aware I don't have Androgenetic Alopecia but something much worse. I lost almost all my hair now, so depressed.

We're all with you, man. Maybe you have some systemic deficiency that can be solved easily. Good luck and if you can, tell us how it goes for you in the future.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

The reason why people get results from minoxidil is because it's a VASODILATOR. Nothing more, nothing less. People go off on how it can promote certain things.... Well OF COURSE it can it promotes BLOOD FLOW... Lol. The reason why some people don't see results is because some people (such as sparx for example) have too much of a tight scalp to have it work on them. Their blood flow is severely disrupted by a tight Galea. On the other hand, you may have other people who experience results from almost anything because their Galeas aren't too tight and thus their blood flow isn't as disrupted.


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Number one: Disrupted blood flow leads to all of this... It isn't the other way around, my friend.

Number two: Dermarolling is supposed to regenerate subcutaneous fat and get rid of fibrotic tissue... hence why it works so well.

Number three: Emu oil is an anti-fibrotic oil which also helps replenish subcutaneous fat cells. Check out Dr.Hollicks work.

I also THINK that stimulating the area via increased blood flow regenerates this fatty layer.... The body is extremely resilient and I believe if we reverse this process via addressing the main culprit of things (tight scalp=> disrupted blood flow) that we can accomplish replenishment of these cells. Don't most fat cells have memory anyways?

 

[brunobald]

Better vasodilators than minoxidil have been tested with worse results. So they jury is still out on exactly how it works.

When you talk about a tight scalp this may be a by product of the real underlying casue of hairloss and not the main contributing factor. Fat people for example grow extra skin to accomodate the extra body fat. Why wouldn't the scalp also expand it the Galeas was too tight.

 

[albert]

Also, good luck to everyone on this experiment, I will not be posting here more as I am aware I don't have Androgenetic Alopecia but something much worse. I lost almost all my hair now, so depressed.

I really hope that everything goes well for you man, best of the luck and thank you very much for all your posts and company here. Hoping positive reports from you at some point about your health

 

[opti]

Better vasodilators than minoxidil have been tested with worse results. So they jury is still out on exactly how it works.

When you talk about a tight scalp this may be a by product of the real underlying casue of hairloss and not the main contributing factor. Fat people for example grow extra skin to accomodate the extra body fat. Why wouldn't the scalp also expand it the Galeas was too tight.

most fat ppl dont have much temples,they have more likely diffuse thinning on vertex and top..
most bodybuilders etc who are bald have bald temples and not really bald vertex areas

 

[Kirby]

Having a mild shed, the first shed I've had since last October. No idea if the other treatments I'm using are the trigger though (finasteride, minoxidil). The only conclusion I can draw about rolling and shedding is to expect a shed at some point...

 

[Sparky4444]

The reason why some people don't see results is because some people (such as sparx for example) have too much of a tight scalp to have it work on them.

oh boy did you ever nail that one! The very center frontal area is looser and I am seeing some very light vellus recover there -- but going towards the temples where the skin is tight as hell, nothing...

...I tried putting the TENS machine on my temples as that really works them up...I think I am going to get back on that...

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The reason why some people don't see results is because some people (such as sparx for example) have too much of a tight scalp to have it work on them.

oh boy did you ever nail that one! The very center frontal area is looser and I am seeing some very light vellus recover there -- but going towards the temples where the skin is tight as hell, nothing...

...I tried putting the TENS machine on my temples as that really works them up...I think I am going to get back on that...

 

[BeliefISKEY]

Thank you for saving me the time. I was in shock when I saw those two individuals basically say that they swear by chemotherapy when it has a 2%-40% success rate depending on the cancer.

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Let me ask you this.... How can we tell how tight all of the test subjects scalps were in these studies? How can I even touch on this subject if these tests weren't conducted correctly due to the fact that the mainstream medical community completely ignores blood flow? But what I can say with complete confidence is that minoxidil is a vasodilator.... A pretty STRONG ONE that was once used as a blood pressure medication.

Why do you even think people are having spectacular results on this thread? Some of these people are the same people that have been fighting hair loss with these pointless pills & topicals for many years with minimal to no results at all yet they're getting great results from wounding. This, to me, is another +1 for the blood flow theory.

Now, of course if you inhibit DHT production all together you are going to get pretty decent if not great results IF your scalp isn't extremely tight and you caught male pattern baldness at it's early stages. But would that work for a person who has an extremely tight scalp with already very dormant/resistant follicles? Nope. Maybe they can maintain but I doubt they can regrow and if they do it'll take a LONG time depending on their mileage. A tight scalp+elevated DHT levels/accumulation already did its job in screwing the follicles.

On most of these forums lots of people just fight to maintain hair..... But what amuses me is that there are quite a few semi- identical studies that show that loosening the Galea results in a complete halt in hair loss for all test subjects in the study and regrowth for most. The study that I'm talking about is the Botox study. They did not make an attempt to take care of fibrosis, they did not massage their scalp and or apply FDA approved topicals or any topicals for that matter, they did not take any DHT inhibitors.... just straight up Botox injections to the muscles pulling on the Galea. Results? Like I just said... A halt in hair loss for everyone and regrowth for most. Just imagine if they would have added dermarolling, some Emu oil/castor oil, and perhaps brushing and a good quality violet ray device.

As for your question: no offense, but it doesn't even make sense to me. It is so clear that DHT does all of the dirty work here while the scalp is overly tight (inflammation, accumulation, makes it harder for all types of stuff to metabolize in the scalp etc.) just look at how people have sebum/oily scalp issues after never having them before...... Or increased itching, pins and needles feelings, pimples and boils etc. this is because not only is the blood flow compromised due to this tight galea, but the DHT starts to become over produced due to the scalp undergoing hypoxia and therefore accumulates and just completely messes everything up and makes things go completely out of wack. I mean, placebo was shown to decrease DHT levels in the scalp by 15% without even altering serum DHT levels. I believe this was due to less stress => looser Galea => better blood flow and metabolization of things in the scalp.

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Sorry man, I just can't agree with you on that one at all. I think this is would just be considered as speculation. I mean, look at one of the most fatest men in the the world.... He has a FULL head of hair with perfect temples.

http://www.frogview.com/show4.php?file=6908

 

[albert]

Why do you even think people are having spectacular results on this thread? Some of these people are the same people that have been fighting hair loss with these pointless pills & topicals for many years with minimal to no results at all yet they're getting great results from wounding. This, to me, is another +1 for the blood flow theory.

Now, of course if you inhibit DHT production all together you are going to get pretty decent if not great results IF your scalp isn't extremely tight and you caught male pattern baldness at it's early stages. But would that work for a person who has an extremely tight scalp with already very dormant/resistant follicles? Nope. Maybe they can maintain but I doubt they can regrow and if they do it'll take a LONG time depending on their mileage. A tight scalp+elevated DHT levels/accumulation already did its job in screwing the follicles.

On most of these forums lots of people just fight to maintain hair..... But what amuses me is that there are quite a few semi- identical studies that show that loosening the Galea results in a complete halt in hair loss for all test subjects in the study and regrowth for most. The study that I'm talking about is the Botox study. They did not make an attempt to take care of fibrosis, they did not massage their scalp and or apply FDA approved topicals or any topicals for that matter, they did not take any DHT inhibitors.... just straight up Botox injections to the muscles pulling on the Galea. Results? Like I just said... A halt in hair loss for everyone and regrowth for most. Just imagine if they would have added dermarolling, some Emu oil/castor oil, and perhaps brushing and a good quality violet ray device.

As for your question: no offense, but it doesn't even make sense to me. It is so clear that DHT does all of the dirty work here while the scalp is overly tight (inflammation, accumulation, makes it harder for all types of stuff to metabolize in the scalp etc.) just look at how people have sebum/oily scalp issues after never having them before...... Or increased itching, pins and needles feelings, pimples and boils etc. this is because not only is the blood flow compromised due to this tight galea, but the DHT starts to become over produced due to the scalp undergoing hypoxia and therefore accumulates and just completely messes everything up and makes things go completely out of wack. I mean, placebo was shown to decrease DHT levels in the scalp by 15% without even altering serum DHT levels. I believe this was due to less stress => looser Galea => better blood flow and metabolization of things in the scalp.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

Why do you always need a study to confirm how effective something is? There is a ton of anecdotal evidence that castor oil works great for the scalp/hair. Maybe not in extreme male pattern baldness cases but it DOES WORK. There will probably never be a study on any of these natural products simply because there is no profit in them. These sort of topicals are passed down from generation to generation kind of like "secret recipes" are (LOL) I bet if they did conduct some studies the results would be GREAT, but these things take longer than say chemically based topicals like minoxidil. The idea that castor oil is great for most of the hair on our bodies is truly a fact... Why do you think they add it in eyelash serums and other stuff?

 

[opti]

Why do you always need a study to confirm how effective something is? There is a ton of anecdotal evidence that castor oil works great for the scalp/hair. Maybe not in extreme male pattern baldness cases but it DOES WORK. There will probably never be a study on any of these natural products simply because there is no profit in them. These sort of topicals are passed down from generation to generation kind of like "secret recipes" are (LOL) I bet if they did conduct some studies the results would be GREAT, but these things take longer than say chemically based topicals like minoxidil. The idea that castor oil is great for most of the hair on our bodies is truly a fact... Why do you think they add it in eyelash serums and other stuff?

+1 .

I saw a lot threads here on ppl using finasteride etc(because there are studies), and nearly none of them grew temples back . Some did even get more thinning hair with finasteride etc.But there are a few threads with ppl using emu oil/castor oil and have pretty good results on temples.Even many women are using such oils to regrow their temples and hairline. Im not talking about vertex now since its much easier to restore in my opinion. I guess in balding process the blood flow in temples and hair line is much worse then on vertex,thats why its harder to gegrow anything there. I just looked the last weeks at people who are balding/ not balding. And balding ppl had really huge forehead wrinkles(like me too),while non balding people had a soft skin and not that much forehead wrinkles. Looks like a sign for balding people on temples...

 

[squeegee]

most fat ppl dont have much temples,they have more likely diffuse thinning on vertex and top..
most bodybuilders etc who are bald have bald temples and not really bald vertex areas

Wtf are you talking about. Being Fat have nothing to do with balding. Kai Green and Jay Cutler are Professional body builders and have a full head of hair. Stop being stupid. You cannot generalize hairloss with body types, diets.. etc.

 

[opti]

Wtf are you talking about. Being Fat have nothing to do with balding. Kai Green and Jay Cutler are Professional body builders and have a full head of hair. Stop being stupid. You cannot generalize hairloss with body types, diets.. etc.

then u maybe never were in a gym. I see like 9/10 ppl in the gym who are balding ,are balding on temples only.

also beeing fat leads to more estrogen production since fat cells are producin alot of aromatase. They have quite different hormon specs than low fat ppl

 

[squeegee]

The reason why people get results from minoxidil is because it's a VASODILATOR. Nothing more, nothing less. People go off on how it can promote certain things.... Well OF COURSE it can it promotes BLOOD FLOW... Lol. The reason why some people don't see results is because some people (such as sparx for example) have too much of a tight scalp to have it work on them. Their blood flow is severely disrupted by a tight Galea. On the other hand, you may have other people who experience results from almost anything because their Galeas aren't too tight and thus their blood flow isn't as disrupted.


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Number one: Disrupted blood flow leads to all of this... It isn't the other way around, my friend.

Number two: Dermarolling is supposed to regenerate subcutaneous fat and get rid of fibrotic tissue... hence why it works so well.

Number three: Emu oil is an anti-fibrotic oil which also helps replenish subcutaneous fat cells. Check out Dr.Hollicks work.

I also THINK that stimulating the area via increased blood flow regenerates this fatty layer.... The body is extremely resilient and I believe if we reverse this process via addressing the main culprit of things (tight scalp=> disrupted blood flow) that we can accomplish replenishment of these cells. Don't most fat cells have memory anyways?

Disrupted blood to the scalp leads to Male Pattern baldness..??? If I hit your pumpkin with a 2x4.. I bet you gonna bleed like pig. Stop being ridiculous. Baldness is triggered by DHT. Male Pattern baldness is caused by the lack of migration of progenitor cells to the follicles due to the accumulation of collagen and fibrosis induced by DHT. Androgen significantly increases production of collagen which strangle the hair follicles and stop the migration of the stem cell. By dumping minoxidil to your pumpkin ( Nitric Oxide) you facilitate the migration of the progenitor cells to the follicles by vasodilation. It also fight the collagen accumulation.


Effects of minoxidil on cultured human skin fibroblasts.
Pinnell SR, Murad S.
Source
Department of Medicine, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C.
Abstract
Two important findings related to the effect of minoxidil on human skin fibroblasts in culture are reviewed. Treatment of cells with minoxidil is associated with a specific loss of lysyl hydroxylase activity; this loss occurs gradually and is reversed by removing minoxidil from the culture medium. Experiments with inhibitors of protein and RNA synthesis reveal that minoxidil may inhibit the synthesis of lysyl hydroxylase by acting at the transcriptional level. Treatment of cells with minoxidil is also associated with inhibition of proliferation, without any sign of cytotoxicity. This effect of minoxidil is accompanied by inhibition of DNA synthesis. Since collagen is the major product of fibroblast activity and lysyl hydroxylase catalyzes a crucial reaction in collagen biosynthesis, the combined effects of minoxidil offer the potential for its use as an antifibrotic agent. Thus, minoxidil may prove to be beneficial in treating skin conditions associated with collagen accumulation.

Action of androgen on fibroblast collagen synthesis: a receptor-dependent response.

C Loire[SUP]1[/SUP], B Kern[SUP]1[/SUP] and Ch Sultan[SUP]1[/SUP]
[SUP]1[/SUP]INSERM U.58, MONTPELLIER and CNRS GR.40, CRETEIL, France.

Top of pageAbstract

Several groups are still investigating an "in vitro" biological response of androgen action. The purpose of this study was to determine whether dihydrotestosterone (DHT) influences the secretion of collagen by cultured foreskin fibroblasts raised from patients with normal or undetectable DHT-binding activity (complete androgen resistance). Collagen synthesis and secretion were evaluated by [SUP]3[/SUP]H-proline incorporation in newly synthetized collagen by confluent fibroblasts alone, or in the presence of DHT (10[SUP]−5[/SUP] to -10[SUP]−10[/SUP]M). Production of collagen is expressed as a ratio between tritiated OH-proline and OH-proline plus proline,within the cells or in the culture medium.

These data show that : -in control cells,DHT significantly increases production of collagen released in the culture medium (p < 0.001), -In complete androgen resistance with no detectable androgen binding activity, DHT does not modify basal collagen synthesis. These results strongly suggest that this hormonal response is mediated via a DHT-receptor or is receptor-dependent. This could be used as a biological response of androgen action in patients with androgen resistance associated with a "post-receptor" defect.



I am still trying to find a free version of their study from L’Oreal.
L’Oreal was bang-on with their study earlier.. which is thought to prevent the build-up of collagen around follicles. “During the hair cycle the follicle has to be rebuilt from stem cells,” explains Dr Bruno Bernard, director of research for life sciences at L’Oreal. “Stem cells in human hair follicles are localised in two different reservoirs – one is in the upper part of the follicle and the other in the lower part. “The cells in the lower part are required to activate the cells in the upper part and so help to maintain the follicle function. The thickening of collagen in the connective tissue sheath, which sits around the base of the hair follicle, prevents the movement of stem cells from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. Bit by bit, the follicle is squeezed and causes the follicles to grow smaller and smaller.” Indeed, research from The Rockefeller University in New York suggests movement between the two groups of stem cells is crucial in normal hair growth.
Another recent study, at the University of Pennsylvania, has shown that bald areas of scalp contain the same number of stem cells as hairy areas. It disproved theories that hair loss in androgenic alopecia was due to a loss of follicle stem cells suggesting that they have just become inactive.


Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells.

Garza LA, Yang CC, Zhao T, Blatt HB, Lee M, He H, Stanton DC, Carrasco L, Spiegel JH, Tobias JW, Cotsarelis G.
Source

Department of Dermatology, Kligman Laboratories, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA.

Abstract

Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia), also known as common baldness, is characterized by a marked decrease in hair follicle size, which could be related to the loss of hair follicle stem or progenitor cells. To test this hypothesis, we analyzed bald and non-bald scalp from Androgenetic Alopecia individuals for the presence of hair follicle stem and progenitor cells. Cells expressing cytokeratin15 (KRT15), CD200, CD34, and integrin, α6 (ITGA6) were quantitated via flow cytometry. High levels of KRT15 expression correlated with stem cell properties of small cell size and quiescence. These KRT15(hi) stem cells were maintained in bald scalp samples. However, CD200(hi)ITGA6(hi) and CD34(hi) cell populations--which both possessed a progenitor phenotype, in that they localized closely to the stem cell-rich bulge area but were larger and more proliferative than the KRT15(hi) stem cells--were markedly diminished. In functional assays, analogous CD200(hi)Itga6(hi) cells from murine hair follicles were multipotent and generated new hair follicles in skin reconstitution assays. These findings support the notion that a defect in conversion of hair follicle stem cells to progenitor cells plays a role in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia.

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then u maybe never were in a gym. I see like 9/10 ppl in the gym who are balding ,are balding on temples only.

also beeing fat leads to more estrogen production since fat cells are producin alot of aromatase. They have quite different hormon specs than low fat ppl

I am in the Military, I am at the gym 6 days a week. Body composition have nothing to do with hairloss. Stop it already with your dumbasses observations and keep it to another threads or for yourself. You misleading people with your stupid personal perception on baldness. There is some relationship with aromatase activity and body fat distribution but has nothing to do with baldness.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

And this is why this forum (sorry to say) just started to see a **** load of success lol. Because of guys like you.

And I never said the blood flow is CUT OFF.... I said it was disrupted/compromised. If it were completely cut off your skin would be blue you moron.

I take it that you don't believe in the Galea theory, right? Lol so explain why guys that are at the final stages of male pattern baldness experience horse shoe pattern hair loss that mimicks the shape of the Galea....Please tell me why the side and back of our heads don't go bald in even the extreme cases of male pattern baldness <= notice I said male pattern baldness.

Please cite me a couple studies that back up what you say and I'll be expecting to see a 100% halt in hair loss and a majority of the 100% to have regrown hair. If you can do that that'll be great but until then? Get your head out of your ***.

WATCH THIS: Sparx, is your scalp pretty numb compared to the skin on your face? If not, how long has this extreme tightness been going on for you?

 

[squeegee]

And this is why this forum (sorry to say) just started to see a **** load of success lol. Because of guys like you.

And I never said the blood flow is CUT OFF.... I said it was disrupted/compromised. If it were completely cut off your skin would be blue you moron.

I take it that you don't believe in the Galea theory, right? Lol so explain why guys that are at the final stages of male pattern baldness experience horse shoe pattern hair loss that mimicks the shape of the Galea....Please tell me why the side and back of our heads don't go bald in even the extreme cases of male pattern baldness <= notice I said male pattern baldness.

Please cite me a couple studies that back up what you say and I'll be expecting to see a 100% halt in hair loss and a majority of the 100% to have regrown hair. If you can do that that'll be great but until then? Get your head out of your ***.

WATCH THIS: Sparx, is your scalp pretty numb compared to the skin on your face? If not, how long has this extreme tightness been going on for you?

Shut up dip****. Stupid galea theory and tightness of the scalp. hahahahahahahaha Go eat some fruit loops. Stupid bro science based on observation and perception. What happens to paraplegic legs? they shrinks? What happens when stem cells treatment is given? male pattern baldness is nothing more than the impairment of migration of stem cells to the follicles.

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/429222/paralyzed-rats-walk-again-after-stem-cell-transplant/

BeliefISKEY, is your scalp pretty numb compared to the skin of your rectum? If not, how long has this extreme tightness been going on for you?

[video=youtube;uadzvjFDro8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uadzvjFDro8[/video]

 

[HairShocka]

BeliefISKEY, is your scalp pretty numb compared to the skin of your rectum? If not, how long has this extreme tightness been going on for you?

So funny.
Squeegee, did you say you got your dermaroller off ebay? Any preferred sellers? Also titanium or non titanium?