New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[odalbak]

The galea thing has been discussed a million times and I won't spend more than one post on it. One problem I have to forever discard an implication of the galea in the whole process, is obviously the perfect similarity of male pattern baldness geography with the galea, and so far our impossibility to answer the question of why would nature genetically organize this huge variation of androgenic sensitivity between on galea/off galea hair follicles? Why would nature choose the exact galea boundaries to give that difference? The other problem I have is the fact that the 1979 Nordstrom study which is supposed to dispel the idea of the galea as a factor and confirm donor dominance theory, used grafts of balding skin patched on the forearm. Grafts were probably fibrotic and more importantly the forearm region has been shown to be hypoxic and containing the second highest level of dht in the body after the scalp… The other problem i find is that when healthy follicles are transplanted on the galea region this happens on older guys with lower testosterone production and I'm still waiting for long term observation of how these follicles do after like 20 years.

Now, that doesn't justify beliefiskey's useless arrogance.

 

[theRA]

anyone else noticed that the scalp tone where you still have hair is different compared to the bald one? If you look on a spot where you have hair, the skin is more "white", but the bald areas match your skin color on (for example) your face. Its maybe due to built up sebum/fibrosis/whatever that the change happens and hair can no longer get trough the "thick" layer of your skin. I wonder if DRing can turn around the process eventually. .... anyway, just my observations.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

No, yes it does. I am regrowing hair, are you?

It has already been well established that it's the enviornment that's screwed up NOT the follicles themselves. How does this enviornment become screwed up? Well according to 3 studies <= I count the Detumescence study as one because it significantly loosens the Galea and there is anecdotal evidence in here as well as many forums to prove it that it does (IE: the people that say their scalps are more flexible/supple/softer etc. after performing the Detumescence therapy) but by far the Botox study goes into the most detail and explains things in the best manner. IT IS CAUSED BY A TIGHT GALEA AND OVERPRODUCTION/ACCUMULATION OF DHT IN THE SCALP.

How else do you think more DHT is created locally in the galea (balding) area? Because the low oxygen environment (CREATED BY AN OVERLY TIGHT GALEA) eliminates DHT's competitor, estradiol, which needs oxygen to flourish. Then, once the Galea is loosened effectively, and dht/estradiol levels in the scalp are pretty much normalized, a stop in hair loss is accomplished for all test subjects and regrowth is accomplished for most. Similar results were experienced in the two other studies I mentioned.

So you can ignore these studies and all of this anecdotal evidence which is rapidly growing & keep asking yourself why you still have a fatty layer, feeling, HAIR, etc. in the areas where the Galea is not located and consequently go bald from looking for answers that you have been pushing away all this time.

Oh, right. I'm the arrogant one when squeegee is over here talking about tight rectums and calling me, as well as several other people inappropriate names. Lol I come over to this forum to lurk/further my research and make an attempt to try and help others who don't seem to be getting success from any of this by simply shining the light on an idea which is finally already being acknowledged and respectably being known as the main culprit of male pattern baldness by people who use their BRAIN.

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Which proves that there is validity in performing SE and that if you loosen your Galea YOU WON'T NEED TO APPLY minoxidil or "masturbate" <= (something you're very familiar with I bet) your scalp vigorously on a daily basis. Again, you're just backing up the blood flow theory (or should I say fact) for me, lol. The only difference between scalp loosening/scalp exercise is that your follicles don't become dependent on promoting blood flow to the scalp naturally (unless you don't loosen the Galea) as opposed to minoxidil and you sure as hell don't experience the ridiculous side effects from neither of the two that you experience from the short/long term use of minoxidil.

Oh, and I read these studies quite a while ago... they were quite impressive and not surprising being that both these things encourage blood flow quite a lot LOL. Are they more impressive than something like the Botox study though? Nope.

Moral of the story? LOOSEN YOUR SCALP THEN ROLL.

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I was going to mention the forearm thing yesterday but I forgot. If you look at the forearm though, you will notice that the hairs are much more sparse and kind vellus/intermediate you will. Also, compare the "fleshiness" and tightness of the skin to hairier parts of the arm (I'm assuming you guys don't have b1tch arms) & you will see how this all matches with absolutely everything I say.

 

[odalbak]

Out of this body, Leon Maliniak!!

Squeegee IS a bully but over the years he posted millions of cool studies and is always willing to help new guys as long as they don't display your "you fools, I know the truth" kind of attitude. We just accept his bad manners.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

A great LOL and a face palm for the first part.

I understand your point. I apologize for coming off as an arrogant person. I never intended to be that way & it isn't my fault if I'm perceived as a big headed person... I'm just trying to help. I was simply being attacked by this guy for sticking to my beliefs and once I called him out on his he didn't stand a chance.... That's the point of a discussion forum, isn't it? We're trying to get to the bottom of this, NOT go around in circles.

IMO he is the arrogant one here. Any other theory that doesn't relate to his gets attacked and stumbled on by this guy. Look at the gentleman that posted his opinion on fat people/muscular people and hair loss or even my stuff that I posted on here yesterday....... Nearly all, if not all posts were attacked and worse, he said his theory was right and ours was wrong. He even said the people on IH forums are stupid because they think stuff like amalgam fillings can contribute to hair loss. I mean, I disagreed with the fat people/muscular people comment too but not in a rude & hostile way like he did.

I am in no way, shape, or form trying to act like a know-it-all jerk. I am just defending what I believe in just like he was/is doing hoping it'll help somebody the same way it has for me. That's all. A couple of guys actually found my comments somewhat helpful and maybe now they might want to take part in performing manuals to loosen their scalps and add that as a tool to their tool belt. I don't see anything wrong with that. This is not a competition.

 

[brunobald]

I think tight scalps are the end game not the cause of hairloss. I reckon its mainly a byproduct of fibrotic build up causing the skin to loose elasticity.

 

[BeliefISKEY]

NOT SAYING FIBROSIS ISN'T AN ISSUE- but in the Botox study, all of the test subjects received Botox injections directly to the muscles pulling/surrounding the Galea which resulted in a completely loose scalp and a reverse in hair loss. Many people (myself included) have experienced this too. After relaxing the muscles around the scalp (including the Frontalis/forehead muscle), the scalp becomes more supple and flexibility/ROM is restored. Try it out for yourself. Search up Leon Malinaks technique to loosen the scalp or IMO an even better one would be the Detumescence therapy massage. You'll be amazed at how fibrosis doesn't seem like much of a problem anymore after you loosen up your Galea.

 

[albert]

I'm getting more generous stubble right in my temples, but you know, no real cosmetic difference. Funny thing is that I'm getting more stubble on the outer part of the temple rather than the inner, which is funny but at the same time much easier to track. Oh well, if at least half of those hairs would pigment and get longer I'd be kinda happy.

Update: I just took a photo with my phone + flash. You can clearly see the hairs I'm talking about (that's my right temple). You can check it HERE.

 

[hellouser]

Anyone wanna chime in how the use of CB-03-01 may affect dermarolling? Here's cosmo's reports after treatment on the scalp:

The technique highlighted:
• an increase in the shaft diameter, mainly evident in CB-03-01 groups, as reported in clinical data table
• an impressive reduction of sebacious gland size, observed in about 85% of treated subjects.
• a decrease in dermal fibrosis, indicator of inflammatory process, after treatment mainly with CB-03-01
• a reduction of vessel diameter of peribulbar microvasculature
• a reduction of inflammatory cells after treatment with CB-03-01.


I've been on CB for the past 1-2 months... shedding has decreased but have yet to see regrowth.

 

[theRA]

I'm getting more generous stubble right in my temples, but you know, no real cosmetic difference. Funny thing is that I'm getting more stubble on the outer part of the temple rather than the inner, which is funny but at the same time much easier to track. Oh well, if at least half of those hairs would pigment and get longer I'd be kinda happy.

Update: I just took a photo with my phone + flash. You can clearly see the hairs I'm talking about (that's my right temple). You can check it HERE.

woa! damn nice, if they will grow that is

 

[odalbak]

albert,

same experience here.

 

[Bombarie]

I'm getting more generous stubble right in my temples, but you know, no real cosmetic difference. Funny thing is that I'm getting more stubble on the outer part of the temple rather than the inner, which is funny but at the same time much easier to track. Oh well, if at least half of those hairs would pigment and get longer I'd be kinda happy.

Update: I just took a photo with my phone + flash. You can clearly see the hairs I'm talking about (that's my right temple). You can check it HERE.

Sjees this must be encouriging for you!!

 

[Kirby]

My main concern (at this point) is that the hair we grow will not end up as full terminal hairs. This definitely produces new vellus hair, possibly thickens existing terminal hair too, however. Worst case scenario, I guess we'll have proof of some sort that wounding is the way to go for partial reversal of male pattern baldness, even if we might lack Ingredient X.

 

[albert]

My main concern (at this point) is that the hair we grow will not end up as full terminal hairs. This definitely produces new vellus hair, possibly thickens existing terminal hair too, however. Worst case scenario, I guess we'll have proof of some sort that wounding is the way to go for partial reversal of male pattern baldness, even if we might lack Ingredient X.

+1. We'll be able to say if this creates terminal hairs or not (a good bunch of them, not a couple like I've already) when someone of us reaches the 6th month of dermarolling w/ Minoxidil. Before that, everything is speculation. But giving that we all like to speculate, it could be possible to create full terminal hairs as we're removing the useless tissue and applying Minoxidil to push many factors to work on the issue (blood flow, etc). We'll see, but what I've obtained so far is quite okay.

 

[casperz]

+1. We'll be able to say if this creates terminal hairs or not (a good bunch of them, not a couple like I've already) when someone of us reaches the 6th month of dermarolling w/ Minoxidil. Before that, everything is speculation. But giving that we all like to speculate, it could be possible to create full terminal hairs as we're removing the useless tissue and applying Minoxidil to push many factors to work on the issue (blood flow, etc). We'll see, but what I've obtained so far is quite okay.

After spending 20 minutes with the microscope camera this weekend I'm more convinced than ever that we are growing new hairs.

Does it really matter the reason? Either minoxidil is getting to the hairs better or the wounding is causing new hairs to sprout. But either way we are seeing new hairs in bald areas. I think we will know around mid 2014 if they cycle and stick around and by this time next year we will have very visible results if they do.

 

[Sparky4444]

I think you need the minoxidil with it...for me, I am getting barely anything -- and I have only been applying minoxidil sporadically, and it's the non PPG stuff from minoxidil.com that probably isn't even effective

 

[cthulhu2.0]

I think you need the minoxidil with it...for me, I am getting barely anything -- and I have only been applying minoxidil sporadically, and it's the non PPG stuff from minoxidil.com that probably isn't even effective

Personally, I think people should only trust the big name manufacturers like Kirkland or Rogaine. Who knows, maybe these small companies that sell a knockoff of minoxidil aren't even using minoxidil since they are unlikely regulated. On another note, a 6 months supply of Kirkland is dirt cheap and supposedly Propylene Glycol is important for absorption.

 

[benjt]

Update for the non-minoxidil group again:

Rolling w/o any topicals does not work, at least for me. I got those 10 to 20 or so new terminal hairs from it, which I reported already two to three weeks ago, but ever since then no additional success. My theory regarding those 10 to 20 "new" hairs is that they were the obligatory "hit by chance", where I actually struck exactly the fibrotic tissue around an otherwise perfectly healthy follicle. This would also explain why I got the new hairs only at hair line, where the chances of follicles still being in tact is rather high. But maintaining my hair line this way... Hell no. Too much of a hassle, too little effect.

I will discontinue rolling for now. For me, the effect was little to almost nothing: 10 to 20 hairs at hair line with 7 sessions (which still proves that rolling has some effect, but for me personally it was just too minor). Keep in mind though that I did not use minoxidil or any other topicals.

I will continue the head massaging though. I think the study which made me initally start massaging my head is probably bullsh*t, BUT my whole scalp has loosened up significantly since I started the massages. Given that it tightened up due to fibrosis, I tend to think it is a good sign and will continue to do these massages for some time. Additionally, the massages definitely increase blood flow, which is also minoxidil's primary mode of effect. In case I get any results, I'll report back.

I'm also thinking about starting minoxidil again though at a much lower dose. The side effects that I got are fortunately slowly vanishing, and my face is in a much better shape than three months ago I start looking healthy and young again. If I had to give numbers, I'd say recovery is at about 40 to 50%. The permanent wrinkles around my eyes are almost completely gone. My face still looks extremely scary when I smile, cause I get a ****load of wrinkles where there shouldnt be any when smiling, but even those wrinkles are getting less deep and shorter. The color of my eye circles has further improved. I'm still hoping for a full recovery within the next 3 months, and right now I'm rather optimistic about it. If I should fully recover, I will recommence derma rolling, this time using very small minoxidil doses, and then carry out this experiment again.

 

[squeegee]

Personally, I think people should only trust the big name manufacturers like Kirkland or Rogaine. Who knows, maybe these small companies that sell a knockoff of minoxidil aren't even using minoxidil since they are unlikely regulated. On another note, a 6 months supply of Kirkland is dirt cheap and supposedly Propylene Glycol is important for absorption.

Kirkland is the ****.

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A great LOL and a face palm for the first part.

I understand your point. I apologize for coming off as an arrogant person. I never intended to be that way & it isn't my fault if I'm perceived as a big headed person... I'm just trying to help. I was simply being attacked by this guy for sticking to my beliefs and once I called him out on his he didn't stand a chance.... That's the point of a discussion forum, isn't it? We're trying to get to the bottom of this, NOT go around in circles.

IMO he is the arrogant one here. Any other theory that doesn't relate to his gets attacked and stumbled on by this guy. Look at the gentleman that posted his opinion on fat people/muscular people and hair loss or even my stuff that I posted on here yesterday....... Nearly all, if not all posts were attacked and worse, he said his theory was right and ours was wrong. He even said the people on IH forums are stupid because they think stuff like amalgam fillings can contribute to hair loss. I mean, I disagreed with the fat people/muscular people comment too but not in a rude & hostile way like he did.

I am in no way, shape, or form trying to act like a know-it-all jerk. I am just defending what I believe in just like he was/is doing hoping it'll help somebody the same way it has for me. That's all. A couple of guys actually found my comments somewhat helpful and maybe now they might want to take part in performing manuals to loosen their scalps and add that as a tool to their tool belt. I don't see anything wrong with that. This is not a competition.

hahhahhahaahahahahahah! are you from IH? you seem to have the same approach to hairloss? Caustic is running his cult pretty good , brainwashing people with all kind of nonsenses LOL

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I think tight scalps are the end game not the cause of hairloss. I reckon its mainly a byproduct of fibrotic build up causing the skin to loose elasticity.

Bruno! Scotland have great beers! unk:

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Out of this body, Leon Maliniak!!

Squeegee IS a bully but over the years he posted millions of cool studies and is always willing to help new guys as long as they don't display your "you fools, I know the truth" kind of attitude. We just accept his bad manners.

hahaahahah I am bully OMG.. the human disease of labeling everything!!!! Squeegee is a Bully!

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Soliciting? Did you actually just say that?

to promotes?:doctor:

 

[hellouser]

to promotes?:doctor:

Promoting facts? Sure.