New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[drgs]

all fibrosis is [FONT=arial, sans-serif]collagen, not all collagen is fibrosis[/FONT]

 

[Sparky4444]

all fibrosis is collagen, not all collagen is fibrosis

..please explain Master Yoda :turned:

 

[ganonford]

..please explain Master Yoda :turned:

We all have collagen, that's fine, but us people with Androgenetic Alopecia just happen to have an excess of collagen (an excess probably mediated on us bald bastards by DHT (even Benjt called DHT the "trigger")) which eventually becomes fibrosis.

We are just trying to get rid of fibrosis and create (and maintain) a proper enviroment for hair to thrive.

 

[Jlyncher]

squeegee....

Why is the transplanted hair not affected by the thickening of the collagen??? Any theory?

thanks!

Or...since the transplanted hairs are dht resistant, microinflammation never takes place, hence no thickening of the dermal sheath, leaving a healthy, continual exchange of stem cells, and a long term robust hair follicle. Yeah, that's the ticket!

 

[Sparky4444]

We all have collagen, that's fine, but us people with Androgenetic Alopecia just happen to have an excess of collagen (an excess probably mediated on us bald bastards by DHT (even Benjt called DHT the "trigger")) which eventually becomes fibrosis.

We are just trying to get rid of fibrosis and create (and maintain) a proper enviroment for hair to thrive.

I wonder if taking gelatin is hurting matters, not helping...

 

[drgs]

..please explain Master Yoda :turned:

Try not... Do, or do not. There is no try.

 

[Axel]

That's a good question, I hadn't thought of this. Hmm...perhaps when the hair is transplanted the fibrosis is broken up locally by the procedure itself.

This makes sense... the local environment for the transplanted hair is the same as the one after dermarolling. Check latest casperz pictures...

But still, wouldn't hardened collagen eventually begin to creep in?

And there you have the reason why some of the transplanted hairs will eventually disappear...

 

[Armando Jose]

The thickening of collagen in the connective tissue sheath, which sits around the base of the hair follicle, prevents the movement of stem cells from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. Bit by bit, the follicle is squeezed and causes the follicles to grow smaller and smaller.â€￾ Indeed, research from The Rockefeller University in New York suggests movement between the two groups of stem cells is crucial in normal hair growth.

is possible that hardened sebum have a role in this issue? A lot of people have sebum plugs in the hair affected by common hairloss....

 

[damien_p_watermelon]

Does anyone have an opinion on numbing creams for needling. I've used Emla Cream (a tattoo numbing topical anesthesia) to numb my temples. If I don't it's agony. Anyway it just ocured to me that I'm putting some chemical on the one place I want to encourage hair growth. Does anyone know if there is a problem with numbing creams for hair restoration? Since these creams are used mainly for tattoos and hair waxing, both practices where less hair is preferable, I assume there is little concern that it might cause hair loss.

 

[Jlyncher]

This makes sense... the local environment for the transplanted hair is the same as the one after dermarolling. Check latest casperz pictures...



And there you have the reason why some of the transplanted hairs will eventually disappear...

Yeah casperz pics are awesome, those pics alone seem to prove our concept of dermarolling.

Does anyone have an opinion on numbing creams for needling. I've used Emla Cream (a tattoo numbing topical anesthesia) to numb my temples. If I don't it's agony. Anyway it just ocured to me that I'm putting some chemical on the one place I want to encourage hair growth. Does anyone know if there is a problem with numbing creams for hair restoration? Since these creams are used mainly for tattoos and hair waxing, both practices where less hair is preferable, I assume there is little concern that it might cause hair loss.

I have no idea (maybe someone here does) but that's the same reason I never used a numbing cream, I'm afraid it may interfere with the process-being needled right into the skin. Or it may have no effect..

Casperz, are you using a numbing agent?

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Does anyone have an opinion on numbing creams for needling. I've used Emla Cream (a tattoo numbing topical anesthesia) to numb my temples. If I don't it's agony. Anyway it just ocured to me that I'm putting some chemical on the one place I want to encourage hair growth. Does anyone know if there is a problem with numbing creams for hair restoration? Since these creams are used mainly for tattoos and hair waxing, both practices where less hair is preferable, I assume there is little concern that it might cause hair loss.

My take on it is that the numbing probably is bad for our follicles/skin.
But I'm only rolling once every 14th day. I'm hoping using the cream only every 14th day won't impact the hair follicles/skin badly enough to make a difference.

If I was using it every day, I definitely would be worried.

 

[resu]

Mineral oils are bad, just check the ingredients online.

 

[squeegee]

I want all of you guys to listen to this video: [video=youtube;r6YoqaGcIP0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YoqaGcIP0[/video]

It is an hair transplant video.
It takes 3-4 month to see initial growth which is happening to me right now..so keep the faith ..Guys! it is really exciting! Fast forward to 12:00.. I have better rate of success that this guy so I just cannot wait to see the results in 8 months.

Just focus on the rolling and let the time do his thing. Derma rolling works. I am at 15 weeks right now and my hair keep on thickening everyday.. I can't imagine by next Summer! :salut:

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thought that too but guess it isnt all that good.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
Our findings suggest that T-induced TGF-beta1 and type I procollagen expression may contribute to the development of perifollicular fibrosis in the Androgenetic Alopecia, and the inhibitory effects on T-induced procollagen and TGF-beta1 expression may explain another possible mechanism how finasteride works in Androgenetic Alopecia.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19527330
CONCLUSION:

Follicular microinflammation plays an integral role in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia in early cases. Over time, thickening of perifollicular sheath takes place due to increased deposition of collagen, resulting in marked perifollicular fibrosis, and sometimes ends by complete destruction of the affected follicles in advanced cases.

Good stuff Opti. There is also DKK-1

The gene Dkk1 encodes a protein that plays a key role in increasing the population of connective-tissue cells during wound repair, but prolonged Dkk1 signaling can lead to fibrosis and a stiffening of artery walls


http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...d-to-fibrosis-stiffening-of-artery-walls.aspx

Dihydrotestosterone-inducible dickkopf 1 from balding dermal papilla cells causes apoptosis in follicular keratinocytes.

Moreover, immunoblotting showed that the DKK-1 level is up in the bald scalp compared with the haired scalp of patients with androgenetic alopecia. Altogether, our data strongly suggest that DHT-inducible DKK-1 is involved in DHT-driven balding.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17657240
Dickkopf 1 promotes regression of hair follicles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22358062

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..please explain Master Yoda :turned:

But excess collagen is as bad as fibrosis.

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According to this theory, why doesn't minxoidil work for anyone? And what's up with the plant stem cells shampoo ?

Everybody have different stages of hairloss. This is why. common sense.

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isnt collagen a result of keratinization?so minoxidil blocks collagen synthesis and DR help collagen synthesis?then it would be better to just use DR

Derma rolling help the acceleration of shedding of the skin. which is good. Also help in building new Keratin.

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Squeegee would you mind laying out a standard regimine to get the full benefit of dermarolling?
Also what kind of roller i should get.

So far heres what ive come up with.

Dermaroll once a week.
Minoxodil daily.
Vitamin B12


Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Derma roller 1.5MM 192 needles twice a week with application of Glycolic acid 30% 10 minutes at the same. Fast rolling, then rinse of Glycolic Acid & dried blood.
Minoxidil application twice a day.

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Does anyone have an opinion on numbing creams for needling. I've used Emla Cream (a tattoo numbing topical anesthesia) to numb my temples. If I don't it's agony. Anyway it just ocured to me that I'm putting some chemical on the one place I want to encourage hair growth. Does anyone know if there is a problem with numbing creams for hair restoration? Since these creams are used mainly for tattoos and hair waxing, both practices where less hair is preferable, I assume there is little concern that it might cause hair loss.

T
I don't think numb creams will interfere with the results. Just rinse everything after the rolling.Tattoos are still healing properly with the numb cream applied.

 

[thebin2]

I want all of you guys to listen to this video: [video=youtube;r6YoqaGcIP0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YoqaGcIP0[/video]

It is an hair transplant video.
It takes 3-4 month to see initial growth which is happening to me right now..so keep the faith ..Guys! it is really exciting! Fast forward to 12:00.. I have better rate of success that this guy so I just cannot wait to see the results in 8 months.

Just focus on the rolling and let the time do his thing. Derma rolling works. I am at 15 weeks right now and my hair keep on thickening everyday.. I can't imagine by next Summer! :salut:

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Good stuff Opti. There is also DKK-1

The gene Dkk1 encodes a protein that plays a key role in increasing the population of connective-tissue cells during wound repair, but prolonged Dkk1 signaling can lead to fibrosis and a stiffening of artery walls


http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...d-to-fibrosis-stiffening-of-artery-walls.aspx

Dihydrotestosterone-inducible dickkopf 1 from balding dermal papilla cells causes apoptosis in follicular keratinocytes.

Moreover, immunoblotting showed that the DKK-1 level is up in the bald scalp compared with the haired scalp of patients with androgenetic alopecia. Altogether, our data strongly suggest that DHT-inducible DKK-1 is involved in DHT-driven balding.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17657240
Dickkopf 1 promotes regression of hair follicles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22358062

:worthless:

 

[rerun]

With that collagen fibrosis discussion in mind, would it then be worthwhile to dermaroll without the use of Minoxidil simply as a means of maintaining existing hairs?

I don't want to become dependent on Minoxidil and my hair is still fine and recovering seemingly well with Finasteride and Nizoral, but I definitely don't want fibrosis to occur over time and cause my hair to worsen.

 

[squeegee]

Let's have this quote in mind forever.

:salut:

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squeegee....

Why is the transplanted hair not affected by the thickening of the collagen??? Any theory?

thanks!

The procedure probably break down the collagen locally. Youtube the surgeries. Also look how deep they are "installing" the new follicles. Perfect spot for the progenitor cells to migrate to the bulbs.

 

[saintsfan92344]

Squeegee I have to say your optimism is the reason I started dermarolling, I sure do hope you are right and I am one that it will work on

 

[squeegee]

Squeegee I have to say your optimism is the reason I started dermarolling, I sure do hope you are right and I am one that it will work on

Good stuff! Focus on doing. People on here have a tendency to clutter their brain with any kind of worries. Roll it every week with a good coverage. Not half ***. Keep it going. Wait 3-4 months. Once you see noticing a real difference, motivation and self confidence will kick in then the rest will be history.

 

[casperz]

Casperz, are you using a numbing agent?

Nope. I'd like to but don't want to affect the outcome.

 

[benjt]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19527330
CONCLUSION:

Follicular microinflammation plays an integral role in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia in early cases. Over time, thickening of perifollicular sheath takes place due to increased deposition of collagen, resulting in marked perifollicular fibrosis, and sometimes ends by complete destruction of the affected follicles in advanced cases.

The inflammation, caused by PGD2 levels, leads to the summoning of macrophages, which start transforming the surrounding tissue into fibrotic collagen. Nothing new there.

Regarding TGF: I speculate that TGF increase is normal in tissue inflammation as a response of the body. Remember that inflammation leads to targeted cell destruction and remodeling. TGF is needed for remodeling, so it is likely that it is there in natural response to the inflammation and NOT the cause.

By the way, guys, I have a sad finding to tell you about regarding all the enthusiastic "new hair from punch holes" reports: The holes you are seeing and from which your (new?) hair is growing are not derma rolling punch holes. I really wondered if neogenesis was possible just like this, and thus if just punching somewhere (where there was probably new follicle/DP before) seemed extremely unlikely. If the process was remotely deterministic, you shouldve had many more hair then.

Long story short, these holes are normal. They are the "mouth" of the hair shaft which always shows when a hair is spouting anew. Take a look at some cross sections of scalp biopsy tissue and you will see the hair shaft forming a tunnel up to the surface. This effect will even show when you get regrowth through minoxidil without any dermarolling. Get somebody on minoxidil to take microscope photos in areas where there's vellus hair and you will see exactly the same.