New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[squeegee]

I will test this theory on my right ball tomorrow derma rolling will begin

hahaahah what? hahaha

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+1
Come on Squeegee put your money where your mouth is!

How much money do you have Breaking Bald?

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Since so far no one posted a pic of their head immediatly after rolling, so we can discuss if its bloody enough or not, i will try to take a pic in my next session and post it, if i dont forget (cuz of the pain lol).

A lot a people posted their bloody heads.. you have to dig up a little bit more..

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Hei squeegee - did you, by any chance, shoot photos yesterday?

hahaha you guys are being impatient!!

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..looks like we gonna roll it..:salut:

This is it!! you guys should focus on the DO.. which is roll it.. then wait 90 days.. then continue rolling! and your insecurity about hairloss will slowly be gone.

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Any one have an opinion about a person rolling with decent coverage? Will it hurt the follicles?

no, just do it. Get a 192 needles. Less harsh on the hair than the 540 ones.. To get better results.. I will suggest an haircut..common sense.

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Opti, Since you brought up the estrogen issue, and given that s-equol (very soon to be released by Nature Made) not only binds to DHT but attaches to the estrogen receptor B, does anyone have research on the effects of estrogen on hair, either here or on another thread? I realize it sounds like a no brainer that estrogen would be a big plus but check out the research in the links below. It is a very complicated area of research showing estrogen actually induces catagen and retards anagen according to the studies, yet the clinical experience (topical use in Europe, pregnant women, ect) suggest it is a positive.

http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/27/6/677.full
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0040124
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/early/2004/12/09/en.2004-1219.full.pdf
http://faculty.washington.edu/andchien/PDFs/HuBio/estrogen.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15591132
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2685269/

Any thoughts on this Squeegee, either for this or another thread ? ..........you seem to be very research oriented. S-equol is scheduled to be released by the end of the year in California and could be a great addition to DR both from the standpoint of it's neutralizing effects on DHT and thereby PDG2, and from it's positive effects on the estrogen receptor B if indeed that is a positive.

Also, Squeegee's results from his twice a week regimen would seem to back up his research that wounding initially promotes PGE2 and then later results in a rise in PDG2 as the wound heals. It sounds plausible that just as PGE2 levels are decreasing from the first roll of the week and PGD2 levels are increasing, a second wounding would counteract the rise in PDG2 from the first roll with a new wave of PGE2 from the second roll.

I don't want to neutralize DHT. I am a male and love DHT. I really think that Excess collagen and fibrosis is the "physical impairment" of Androgen Alopecia. DHT have a profound effects on fibroblast, collagen and keratinization.. Excess PGD2 is a sign of chronic inflammation. Get rid of the extra collagen and fibrosis, stimulates keratinization ( shedding of the skin cells..) with the derma roller / Glycolic Acid peels.. will allow the progenitor cells to reach the bulb of the follicles.. Every bald person on this board still have all their follicles.. they just need to be reactivated so they can go back into their normal cycle..Estrogen also promotes keratinization and speeds cell division.. this is why female don't go bald and their skin is soft. They go bald when Androgen become predominant like PCOS or menopause.. Minoxidil inhibit collagen synthesis..

So keep on rolling, get as much coverage as you can. Shedding skin is good. All the yellow dead skin is a good sign. it means that you done your homeworks!

 

[NoLim369]

hahaahah what? hahaha

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How much money do you have Breaking Bald?

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A lot a people posted their bloody heads.. you have to dig up a little bit more..

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hahaha you guys are being impatient!!

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This is it!! you guys should focus on the DO.. which is roll it.. then wait 90 days.. then continue rolling! and your insecurity about hairloss will slowly be gone.

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no, just do it. Get a 192 needles. Less harsh on the hair than the 540 ones.. To get better results.. I will suggest an haircut..common sense.

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I don't want to neutralize DHT. I am a male and love DHT. I really think that Excess collagen and fibrosis is the "physical impairment" of Androgen Alopecia. DHT have a profound effects on fibroblast, collagen and keratinization.. Excess PGD2 is a sign of chronic inflammation. Get rid of the extra collagen and fibrosis, stimulates keratinization ( shedding of the skin cells..) with the derma roller / Glycolic Acid peels.. will allow the progenitor cells to reach the bulb of the follicles.. Every bald person on this board still have all their follicles.. they just need to be reactivated so they can go back into their normal cycle..Estrogen also promotes keratinization and speeds cell division.. this is why female don't go bald and their skin is soft. They go bald when Androgen become predominant like PCOS or menopause.. Minoxidil inhibit collagen synthesis..

So keep on rolling, get as much coverage as you can. Shedding skin is good. All the yellow dead skin is a good sign. it means that you done your homeworks!

Squeegee would you mind laying out a standard regimine to get the full benefit of dermarolling?
Also what kind of roller i should get.

So far heres what ive come up with.

Dermaroll once a week.
Minoxodil daily.
Vitamin B12


Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[opti]

isnt collagen a result of keratinization?so minoxidil blocks collagen synthesis and DR help collagen synthesis?then it would be better to just use DR

 

[Aurelio]

squeegee, do you roll & apply minoxidil on your whole scalp?

 

[ganonford]

isnt collagen a result of keratinization?so minoxidil blocks collagen synthesis and DR help collagen synthesis?then it would be better to just use DR

I don't remember very well, but it was mentiones before that there are two types of collagen here... one of them is good for us while the other one is bad... anyway, the dermaroller is supposed to help break down the bad collagen and replace it with the good one... or it was something like that...

 

[opti]

could it be possible that : on miniaturizised hair the holes in the scalp where the hair shaft comes out are pretty small "(like u aren t able to see them).by demarolling we are extending those hole ,so the hair have more place to grow(getting big again).By using minoxidil , we are stopping to let collagen fill those holes nearly completely again?(look at p.238 ,casperz pics. on one of them u can clearly see the thick hair shaft diameter after rolling)
just my thoughts .

guess there are a lot of things happening while dermarolling (angiogenesis etc)

edit : didnt know that dht enhances collagen production
http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v18/n11/abs/pr19842389a.html
now antiandrogens make more sense to me

edit2 :
dht -> exzessive collagen production -> fibrosis -> inflammation (pgd2 poduction)-> hair are f**** up by fibrosis which allows less blood flow etc(miniaturisation) ??

 

[squeegee]

could it be possible that : on miniaturizised hair the holes in the scalp where the hair shaft comes out are pretty small "(like u aren t able to see them).by demarolling we are extending those hole ,so the hair have more place to grow(getting big again).By using minoxidil , we are stopping to let collagen fill those holes nearly completely again?(look at p.238 ,casperz pics. on one of them u can clearly see the thick hair shaft diameter after rolling)
just my thoughts .

guess there are a lot of things happening while dermarolling (angiogenesis etc)

edit : didnt know that dht enhances collagen production
http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v18/n11/abs/pr19842389a.html
now antiandrogens make more sense to me

edit2 :
dht -> exzessive collagen production -> fibrosis -> inflammation (pgd2 poduction)-> hair are f**** up by fibrosis which allows less blood flow etc(miniaturisation) ??

The keyword is progenitor cells. They are needed for proper hair cycle.

[h=1]Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells.[/h]Garza LA, Yang CC, Zhao T, Blatt HB, Lee M, He H, Stanton DC, Carrasco L, Spiegel JH, Tobias JW, Cotsarelis G.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Dermatology, Kligman Laboratories, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia), also known as common baldness, is characterized by a marked decrease in hair follicle size, which could be related to the loss of hair follicle stem or progenitor cells. To test this hypothesis, we analyzed bald and non-bald scalp from Androgenetic Alopecia individuals for the presence of hair follicle stem and progenitor cells. Cells expressing cytokeratin15 (KRT15), CD200, CD34, and integrin, α6 (ITGA6) were quantitated via flow cytometry. High levels of KRT15 expression correlated with stem cell properties of small cell size and quiescence. These KRT15(hi) stem cells were maintained in bald scalp samples. However, CD200(hi)ITGA6(hi) and CD34(hi) cell populations--which both possessed a progenitor phenotype, in that they localized closely to the stem cell-rich bulge area but were larger and more proliferative than the KRT15(hi) stem cells--were markedly diminished. In functional assays, analogous CD200(hi)Itga6(hi) cells from murine hair follicles were multipotent and generated new hair follicles in skin reconstitution assays. These findings support the notion that a defect in conversion of hair follicle stem cells to progenitor cells plays a role in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[opti]

and DRing helps build progenitor cells? or are we f*** up anyway because we lack on those cells and aren t able to get them back?

 

[squeegee]

During the hair cycle the follicle has to be rebuilt from stem cells,â€￾ explains Dr Bruno Bernard, director of research for life sciences at L’Oreal. “Stem cells in human hair follicles are localised in two different reservoirs – one is in the upper part of the follicle and the other in the lower part. “The cells in the lower part are required to activate the cells in the upper part and so help to maintain the follicle function. The thickening of collagen in the connective tissue sheath, which sits around the base of the hair follicle, prevents the movement of stem cells from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. Bit by bit, the follicle is squeezed and causes the follicles to grow smaller and smaller.â€￾ Indeed, research from The Rockefeller University in New York suggests movement between the two groups of stem cells is crucial in normal hair growth.
Another recent study, at the University of Pennsylvania, has shown that bald areas of scalp contain the same number of stem cells as hairy areas. It disproved theories that hair loss in androgenic alopecia was due to a loss of follicle stem cells suggesting that they have just become inactive.

 

[saintsfan92344]

Thank god for you guys that translate these studies into English for the rest of us, I swear I read some of these and feel dumb as hell. However as some of the terms and words become more familiar I am able to understand more I guess, I am still new to these hairloss forums. so Squeegee from what I have been reading you seem to think highly of dermarolling and its chances of really working, I just started doing it and am due for my second time tonight, however I cant do minoxidil as much as some because of the sides so I fall in between the dermarolling only group and rolling + minoxidil so hopefully I can see some results and I am not wasting my time

 

[Koga]

I don't want to neutralize DHT. I am a male and love DHT. I really think that Excess collagen and fibrosis is the "physical impairment" of Androgen Alopecia. DHT have a profound effects on fibroblast, collagen and keratinization.. Excess PGD2 is a sign of chronic inflammation. Get rid of the extra collagen and fibrosis, stimulates keratinization ( shedding of the skin cells..) with the derma roller / Glycolic Acid peels.. will allow the progenitor cells to reach the bulb of the follicles.. Every bald person on this board still have all their follicles.. they just need to be reactivated so they can go back into their normal cycle..Estrogen also promotes keratinization and speeds cell division.. this is why female don't go bald and their skin is soft. They go bald when Androgen become predominant like PCOS or menopause.. Minoxidil inhibit collagen synthesis..

So keep on rolling, get as much coverage as you can. Shedding skin is good. All the yellow dead skin is a good sign. it means that you done your homeworks!

According to this theory, why doesn't minxoidil work for anyone? And what's up with the plant stem cells shampoo ?

 

[ganonford]

And what's up with the plant stem cells shampoo ?

That's just retarded

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squeegee....

Why is the transplanted hair not affected by the thickening of the collagen??? Any theory?

thanks!

Well, that's just partialy truth. In many guys transplanted hair does not last for much, just a couple of years, I've seen it many times (yeah, I know there's also those lucky guys whose results are permanent). Anyway, no way a surgeon will tell you you are free to stop the meds after a hair transplant, that's for sure.

 

[karankaran]

i think this whole collagen, fibrosis theory makes sense...but if collagen is such a big enemy, why does vitamin c derivatives (like vitamin c phosphate offers protection from androgens, and another vitamin c salt increased IGF-1) might have positive effects, if so you guys know -> vitamin c derivatives are considered the go to product for increasing collagen synthesis... so i wonder what will happen if a person uses topical vitamin c salt!...and by dat i mean MAP or SAP...

 

[albert]

During the hair cycle the follicle has to be rebuilt from stem cells,â€￾ explains Dr Bruno Bernard, director of research for life sciences at L’Oreal. “Stem cells in human hair follicles are localised in two different reservoirs – one is in the upper part of the follicle and the other in the lower part. “The cells in the lower part are required to activate the cells in the upper part and so help to maintain the follicle function. The thickening of collagen in the connective tissue sheath, which sits around the base of the hair follicle, prevents the movement of stem cells from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. Bit by bit, the follicle is squeezed and causes the follicles to grow smaller and smaller.â€￾ Indeed, research from The Rockefeller University in New York suggests movement between the two groups of stem cells is crucial in normal hair growth.
Another recent study, at the University of Pennsylvania, has shown that bald areas of scalp contain the same number of stem cells as hairy areas. It disproved theories that hair loss in androgenic alopecia was due to a loss of follicle stem cells suggesting that they have just become inactive.

Let's have this quote in mind forever.

 

[opti]

i think this whole collagen, fibrosis theory makes sense...but if collagen is such a big enemy, why does vitamin c derivatives (like vitamin c phosphate offers protection from androgens, and another vitamin c salt increased IGF-1) might have positive effects, if so you guys know -> vitamin c derivatives are considered the go to product for increasing collagen synthesis... so i wonder what will happen if a person uses topical vitamin c salt!...and by dat i mean MAP or SAP...

i guess that we balding ppl have an exzessive collagen synthesis.More than needed?Thats why it leads to inflammatory...
Dermarolling alone will maybe just boost collagen production anyway ,while combined with minoxidil i ll break hardened collagen and not letting collagen get produced that much.

minoxidil alone will maybe just higher pge2 levels and decrease collagen production...but it wont kill hardened collagen(fibrosis).


the thing about hair transplant would be interesting too


edit1:
curcumin (power herbal for hair ) seems to decrease collagen synthesis too
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1211/0022357021771823/abstract

We concluded that curcumin inhibits collagen synthesis and hepatic stellate cell activation in-vivo and in-vitro, and thus may prove a valuable anti-fibrogenic agent.

 

[Jlyncher]

squeegee....

Why is the transplanted hair not affected by the thickening of the collagen??? Any theory?

thanks!

That's a good question, I hadn't thought of this. Hmm...perhaps when the hair is transplanted the fibrosis is broken up locally by the procedure itself. But still, wouldn't hardened collagen eventually begin to creep in?

 

[Sparky4444]

Let's have this quote in mind forever.

I'm confused -- isn't collagen vital for healthy skin, period??

 

[Youcandoit]

What does anyone think about stem cell increasing supplements? The key to all of hair loss relies in the stem cells?

http://www.aidanproducts.com/images/products/stem_kine_brochure.pdf

 

[opti]

I'm confused -- isn't collagen vital for healthy skin, period??

thought that too but guess it isnt all that good.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
Our findings suggest that T-induced TGF-beta1 and type I procollagen expression may contribute to the development of perifollicular fibrosis in the Androgenetic Alopecia, and the inhibitory effects on T-induced procollagen and TGF-beta1 expression may explain another possible mechanism how finasteride works in Androgenetic Alopecia.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19527330
[h=4]CONCLUSION:[/h]Follicular microinflammation plays an integral role in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia in early cases. Over time, thickening of perifollicular sheath takes place due to increased deposition of collagen, resulting in marked perifollicular fibrosis, and sometimes ends by complete destruction of the affected follicles in advanced cases.

 

[ganonford]

I'm confused -- isn't collagen vital for healthy skin, period??

Yeah, and that's the reason some people get minoxidil "facial" side effects like wrinkles or baggy eyes. That's just the way every hair loss treatment is, some things may be good for your body for bad for your hair, some things may be good for your hair but bad for the your body, this is a complete chaos.