New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[squeegee]

jeez, 3.0 really? you guys are gonna bleed like crazy

nah..

 

[theRA]

I am waiting for some in the mail.

would you maybe have a link of where did you buy it?

 

[squeegee]

would you maybe have a link of where did you buy it?

Hi theRA! I bought it straight up from Ebay.com... coming from Honk kong!.. Some rollers from China are really good quality..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-Mi...4285?pt=US_Skin_Care&var=&hash=item1c2f38033d

 

[theRA]

Hi theRA! I bought it straight up from Ebay.com... coming from Honk kong!.. Some rollers from China are really good quality..

just ordered one seems its made in Germany, if so then the quality should be really good -.-

 

[DesperateOne]

People are now talking about using lithium like in the study. Tonight will be my 2.5mm session with mint oil, where has princess gone anyways?

 

[Tonny666]

According to you, what is the best derma roller to start dermarolling ? 0.5, 1.5, 2.5 etc ? Thanks

 

[JonnyMontana]

First post here,

Anyone see this blog? Seems he was using a similar dermaroller technique to this study and got results after 6weeks back in 2011. I wonder what his current status is...

http://hairtodaymoretomorrow.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/results-from-dermarolling.html?m=1

Also why is no one creating a log for all the participants in this boards study? Like a big database of different techniques and reported results. Would save a lot of time hunting through posts.

 

[DesperateOne]

According to you, what is the best derma roller to start dermarolling ? 0.5, 1.5, 2.5 etc ? Thanks

I would recommend the 1.5mm to start. If I was in your shoes, I would order both, they're relatively cheap.

 

[benjt]

I'd also suggest 1.5 mm. From scalp skin cross sections we know that we need to go that deep if we want to hit the depth of hair follicles (and subcutaneous fat would be even lower, at 2 mm to 2.5 mm). So yeah, 1.5 mm is the minimum that would make sense according to the Indian study. Some user on these boards though apparently had success with just 0.5 mm. Just to be sure though I'd go for 1.5 mm for now.


Now, an update from me. Just completed my last session (should be 4th if I counted correctly) and made some interesting observations that I want to discuss. I'm a bit off my weekly schedule because my skin was still too damaged from the last session 11 days ago. Maybe I was a bit too rough then.

First off, the setting:
- 1.5 mm for the 4th time now
- scalp massages for three days now

Today's observations:
1. The crunching noise that I got the first few times got way less. I don't know if anybody also got a crunching noise when rolling, but I got it, and it's almost completely gone this time.
2. Today's rolling session was much less painful than any before and I drew much less blood even though I applied even more pressure than before. In the sessions before I would indeed shed some tears; today, however, I could have rolled till infinity.

My theories:
1. I think that the skin softened up a lot and got replaced with soft tissue. This is exactly what we want. Can somebody - if anybody also got crunching noises - confirm that these noises got less? If not, it might be due to the extensive scalp massages that may have softened up the tissue. I think someone posted about some kind of brushes making the skin more permutable - maybe the scalp massages did the same?
2. This is most definitely due to the scalp massages. I did one right before rolling, and in general my scalp skin got more flexible. I can advise everybody who's got a problem with the pain to do a thorough scalp massage before rolling. It helps incredibly.

Please give some feedback on those two issues if you got any.

One more tipp which helped me the rolling session before: Get your motivation up, like for a workout. I put on my workout playlist for the last rolling session and at least for me it worked really great. And think of the chicks you will no longer get if the situation worsens, that really boosts motivation quite a lot (my biggest fear right now tbh - this year has been quite good, but I can see that its gonna be much more difficult with the girls if I loose the crown or progress further on the front).

 

[odalbak]

I'd also suggest 1.5 mm. From scalp skin cross sections we know that we need to go that deep if we want to hit the depth of hair follicles (and subcutaneous fat would be even lower, at 2 mm to 2.5 mm). So yeah, 1.5 mm is the minimum that would make sense according to the Indian study.

Problem is scalps are not the same thickness. The scientific litterature mentions that "in non-bald subjects, 1) each scalp layer changes with aging; 2) the most noticeable changes are in the layers that contain hair; 3) the condition of the galea is influenced by aging. In bald subjects, 1) in early male pattern alopecia no changes occur in scalp thickness; 2) in advanced baldness, all skin layers except the galea exhibit definite thinning." So advice about the needle lengths are not worth much. The only thing I know for sure is that my scalp on the edges of my skull (vertex, temples and borders with the horse shoe) is super thin and tight, that inserting the 1.5mm needles fully like i've been doing requires a lot of pressure and that removing the needles feels a bit like pulling nails from a board. I have no idea how deep I went into my scalp but I wouldn't be surprised I've pierced my galea and who knows maybe slightly touching the bone itself…

After three sessions with the 1.5mm dermaroller I've just ordered a 1.0mm.

 

[benjt]

Oh man... the whole thinning vs. thickening matter really confuses me, as there are multiple papers out there that definitely state that bald areas actually thicken. Maybe there are two effects at work, one thickening (through fibrosis), one thinning (through... whatever?), and the thickening is stronger?

Also, I guess the 1.5 mm are safe as they were used by the guys conducting the study this whole thread is based on... as the needle size was uniform, I guess they were completely sure that there is no risk with 1.5 mm.

 

[DesperateOne]

Oh man... the whole thinning vs. thickening matter really confuses me, as there are multiple papers out there that definitely state that bald areas actually thicken. Maybe there are two effects at work, one thickening (through fibrosis), one thinning (through... whatever?), and the thickening is stronger?

Also, I guess the 1.5 mm are safe as they were used by the guys conducting the study this whole thread is based on... as the needle size was uniform, I guess they were completely sure that there is no risk with 1.5 mm.

They thin because they lose the fat under the skin, that is an essential part of hair regrowth.

 

[badgenetics1]

So I'm curious about how permanent of a solution dermarolling could be if it works. Given that new follicles are created (theoretically) and that the study participants maintained their hair 8 months after stopping, if successful would dermarolling be a semi-permanent solution to hair loss? To clarify, if those of us doing it eventually get to a point where we are happy with the results, do you think that the treatment can be stopped for a while - however long your new follicles live before DHT destroys them again? I'm skeptical of this working, but if it did it would seem to me that you would only need to dermaroll for 12 weeks every few years or however long it takes for DHT to start destroying your follicles again.

 

[squeegee]

So I'm curious about how permanent of a solution dermarolling could be if it works. Given that new follicles are created (theoretically) and that the study participants maintained their hair 8 months after stopping, if successful would dermarolling be a semi-permanent solution to hair loss? To clarify, if those of us doing it eventually get to a point where we are happy with the results, do you think that the treatment can be stopped for a while - however long your new follicles live before DHT destroys them again? I'm skeptical of this working, but if it did it would seem to me that you would only need to dermaroll for 12 weeks every few years or however long it takes for DHT to start destroying your follicles again.

All you have to do is maintenance.. Don't forget aging in here. Keep the maintenance up and your hair would stay.

 

[terrybart518]

three questions for those on the dermaroller program...

Do you need to induce bleeding for it to be effective?
Do you need to use minoxidil like the study(im allergic)
How do we know these are permament results.. will we have to have a maintenance dermaroll plan forever?

One experience I wanted to share (and I actually shared on another forum) was that about 10 years ago I had a bad case of acne so was given a TCA peel to clear up some marks. My skin peeled like crazy, but I will never forget that I got amazing growth where some of the TCA was applied to my temple, but that it wasn't permament growth. Granted I was only given ONE PEEL, so I've always wondered if the growth might have been permament if I had received more. Maybe we are on to something.. here's to hoping!

 

[badgenetics1]

All you have to do is maintenance.. Don't forget aging in here. Keep the maintenance up and your hair would stay.

Good point, thanks! Hopefully this will work.

 

[squeegee]

three questions for those on the dermaroller program...

Do you need to induce bleeding for it to be effective?
Do you need to use minoxidil like the study(im allergic)
How do we know these are permament results.. will we have to have a maintenance dermaroll plan forever?

One experience I wanted to share (and I actually shared on another forum) was that about 10 years ago I had a bad case of acne so was given a TCA peel to clear up some marks. My skin peeled like crazy, but I will never forget that I got amazing growth where some of the TCA was applied to my temple, but that it wasn't permament growth. Granted I was only given ONE PEEL, so I've always wondered if the growth might have been permament if I had received more. Maybe we are on to something.. here's to hoping!

It is just pure logic when it comes to derma rolling.. by traumatizing the skin, your force your body to heal and rebuilt itself up better than before. So if you keep rolling,you just simply reversing the balding process. Consistency and patience is only needed.

I think that a more aggressive rolling session equal faster results but also mild session on a long run can also give you results... It is up to you to decide which way you wanna go. I highly suggest to start slow then progress in your decisions.. I don't think minoxidil is really needed, it just accelerates/enhances results. Yes maintenance would be needed in a long run to keep your hair. Simple logic.

 

[DesperateOne]

three questions for those on the dermaroller program...

Do you need to induce bleeding for it to be effective?
Do you need to use minoxidil like the study(im allergic)
How do we know these are permament results.. will we have to have a maintenance dermaroll plan forever?

One experience I wanted to share (and I actually shared on another forum) was that about 10 years ago I had a bad case of acne so was given a TCA peel to clear up some marks. My skin peeled like crazy, but I will never forget that I got amazing growth where some of the TCA was applied to my temple, but that it wasn't permament growth. Granted I was only given ONE PEEL, so I've always wondered if the growth might have been permament if I had received more. Maybe we are on to something.. here's to hoping!

I had heard some stuff about peelers, very interesting. So I have to ask, if you were given the peeler for you acne, how did it end up on your temples? Did you use a bit there out of curiosity or where the acne marks close to your temples?
So you say they were not permanent, were you on finasteride when you saw that regrowth? Maybe the DHT Killed it like any other hair and if one is on finasteride, one can keep them.
I think that it's worth a try, I would give it a shot on a small piece of scalp to get it out. Do you know the
Percentage you were given?

To answer your questions:
So far it does seem that we need to do it very aggressively to the point where blood is drawn, not that the blood will regain hair but you will simply bleed. You do need minoxidil in order to get terminal hair, minoxidil induces PGE2 which in turn induces fgf9, which is needed to turn the stem cells into hair follicles. If you're allergic you would have to gamble with something else and hope for the best. One thing you can try it you have the balls, is your own semen, since it contains a lot of PGE2. If you can't, well maybe emu oil but I doubt that will do much. Lastly, this is all experimentation, so maybe once we regrow the hair and are on finasteride, we don't have to roll, if not on finasteride, you might have to roll till you die.

@Princess, what do you think about the peeling cream, sounds promising since it goes deep into the skin.

 

[uncomfortable man]

Oh you brave pioneers. Hope you don't get an infection from all your wounding that spreads to your god damned brains. Cheers.

 

[DesperateOne]

I did a minor test with the 2.5mm roller and some peppermint oil on my crown, found a few interesting things.

First, I am one of those that with a 1.5mm only bleed very little. Now I went all the way in with the 2.5mm without rolling, but just pressing in, and I found that I immediately started bleeding, pretty bad. I also had a pumping sensation, like when you lift weights and you muscles contract and expand quickly. So I think I went very deep and probably this is where it needs to be. About the peppermint oil, I applied a little too much and now my crown feels like it is frozen, and super fresh, just like when you put mouth wash on mouth, but instead on the scalp. I do however, must admit it made it much less painful, so that's good. I also noticed that there is not way to roll the entire 2.5mm all the way in, at least not for me. When I press hard and tried to roll, the actual pins would get stuck on my skin, and had to apply some force to get them out.
Lastly, due to that massaging study, I did massaged for about 10 mins, but only the crown.