New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Irishjim]

4th session last night. Still using an ice pack to numb/freeze my head prior to it. Might get myself some proper numbing cream/oil. Any consensus on the best to get? Is it Japanese Mint oil?

I'm a diffuse thinner and interestingly it's easier to bleed where my hair is a little thicker (front middle) and have to push really hard (brings tears to my eyes!) to get blood around my temples and crown where I am a bit thinner.

 

[squeegee]

FIGURE 4. Functional phases of the hair cycle.


Cyclic dermal BMP signalling regulates stem cell activation during hair regeneration


In the age of stem cell engineering it is critical to understand how stem cell activity is regulated during regeneration. Hairs are mini-organs that undergo cyclic regeneration throughout adult life[SUP]1[/SUP], and are an important model for organ regeneration. Hair stem cells located in the follicle bulge[SUP]2[/SUP] are regulated by the surrounding microenvironment, or niche[SUP]3[/SUP]. The activation of such stem cells is cyclic, involving periodic

-catenin activity[SUP]4, [/SUP][SUP]5, [/SUP][SUP]6, [/SUP][SUP]7[/SUP]. In the adult mouse, regeneration occurs in waves in a follicle population, implying coordination among adjacent follicles and the extrafollicular environment. Here we show that unexpected periodic expression of bone morphogenetic protein 2 (Bmp2) and Bmp4 in the dermis regulates this process. This BMP cycle is out of phase with the WNT/

-catenin cycle, thus dividing the conventional telogen into new functional phases: one refractory and the other competent for hair regeneration, characterized by high and low BMP signalling, respectively. Overexpression of noggin, a BMP antagonist, in mouse skin resulted in a markedly shortened refractory phase and faster propagation of the regenerative wave. Transplantation of skin from this mutant onto a wild-type host showed that follicles in donor and host can affect their cycling behaviours mutually, with the outcome depending on the equilibrium of BMP activity in the dermis. Administration of BMP4 protein caused the competent region to become refractory. These results show that BMPs may be the long-sought 'chalone' inhibitors of hair growth postulated by classical experiments. Taken together, results presented in this study provide an example of hierarchical regulation of local organ stem cell homeostasis by the inter-organ macroenvironment. The expression of Bmp2 in subcutaneous adipocytes indicates physiological integration between these two thermo-regulatory organs. Our findings have practical importance for studies using mouse skin as a model for carcinogenesis, intra-cutaneous drug delivery and stem cell engineering studies, because they highlight the acute need to differentiate supportive versus inhibitory regions in the host skin.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v451/n7176/abs/nature06457.html

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Skin and hair follicle integrity is crucially dependent on

1 integrin expression on keratinocytes



Aberrant hair follicle morphogenesis and loss of subcutaneous fat layer in keratinocyte-restricted

1-deficient mice. Hematoxylin–eosin stained sections of back skin of 9-day (A and B) and 7-week-old (C and D) control (A and C) and mutant mice (B and D). At 9 days of age the mutant hair follicles have grown less deeply into the subcutis than normal hair follicles (A, B). Seven-week-old mutant mice had lost all hair follicles and had no subcutaneous fat layer (C, D; bar, 200

m). Hematoxylin–eosin staining of hair follicles derived from 9-day-old control (E) and mutant mice (F, G). Hair follicles in mutant mice showed gross abnormalities, ranging from multilayered ORS (F, arrow) to severely malformed follicles with peripheral hair deposition (G, arrow; bar, 100

m).
http://www.nature.com/emboj/journal/v19/n15/fig_tab/7593216a_F2.html

 

[Armando Jose]

Thank you very much for your good post, PR, S, B, etc.
wnt/BMP/PGD2/subcutabeous fat/... a lot of things changing depending the stage of hair cycle,....., but, only one more thing, human salp hair is asynchronous, in other words each scalp hair have his unique biological regulation. It is very complicated and it is possible that measuring scalp zones with more than one hairs is not the real picture

 

[squeegee]

4th session last night. Still using an ice pack to numb/freeze my head prior to it. Might get myself some proper numbing cream/oil. Any consensus on the best to get? Is it Japanese Mint oil?

I'm a diffuse thinner and interestingly it's easier to bleed where my hair is a little thicker (front middle) and have to push really hard (brings tears to my eyes!) to get blood around my temples and crown where I am a bit thinner.

Same here on the bleeding. I using a 3mm. Derma roller and need way more rolls on the temples to get them bleeding.. No fat cushion, less capillaries. No nutrients to the hair follicles. Bald temples!

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Thank you very much for your good post, PR, S, B, etc.
wnt/BMP/PGD2/subcutabeous fat/... a lot of things changing depending the stage of hair cycle,....., but, only one more thing, human salp hair is asynchronous, in other words each scalp hair have his unique biological regulation. It is very complicated and it is possible that measuring scalp zones with more than one hairs is not the real picture

Totally interesting for sure Armando!:salut: 2:30 AM time to go get some sleep!

 

[benjt]

Hair does not die because it doesn't receive nutrient from BAT, hair enters into premature catagen in Androgenetic Alopecia because of overexpression of PGD2 signaling from hematopoietic prostaglandin D synthase (histamine release from mast cell degranulation) and lipocalin type prostaglandin D synthase: this is the level that one of Cotsarelis' studies measured and found to be 11 fold increased or some scary number like that in Androgenetic Alopecia, and is probably why topicals like cetirizine don't always have great results with some people as it only inhibits HPGDS induced PGD2 (now i am getting off topic ).

The bottom line is that PGD2 is what tells hair to go to sleep. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as even with normal people without Androgenetic Alopecia, it is the same signaling that regulates the normal hair cycle

Are you entirely sure about this, i.e., that PGD2 is also what sends hair follicles into telogen in healthy humans? Cause when googling "hair telogen pgd 2", the only things showing up are referring to Cotsarelis' paper. Can't find any other primary source for that.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as even with normal people without Androgenetic Alopecia, it is the same signaling that regulates the normal hair cycle

Putting together the info found on wikipedia (and what we knew about PGD2 before), PGD2's primary role seems to be in immune responses: "Prostaglandin D[SUB]2[/SUB] (or PGD[SUB]2[/SUB]) is a prostaglandin that binds to the receptor PTGDR, as well as CRTH2.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] It is a major prostaglandin produced by mast cells – recruits Th2 cells, eosinophils, and basophils." Th2 is a immune cell activator, and eosinophils are immune system "combatants" that attack cells deemed harmful.
Also, PGD2 causes fibrosis, and the body can't really want this. On the other hand, as shown by Cotsarelis' figures, the hair follicles are literally overspilling PGD2 into surrounding tissue - maybe PGD2 was never supposed to leave the follicle?

I'm not saying that it is impossible that PGD2 is what sends hair follicles into telogen, because we can also define immune actions of the body against its own cells as "programmed cell death", which is also deployed for renewal. Nonetheless, a primary source for this is really required before we assume this as a fact.

Interesting off-topic fact (source: Wikipedia) : "[PGD2] causes vasodilation."
Given the extremely high PGD2 values in balding scalp, I'm really wondering why minoxidil proves so effective.

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I found something: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14632179

This hints at prostaglandines playing a role in natural hair cycling. It also shows up a COX-dependent condition that results in early exit of the anagen phase (!). Could be useful to our cause.

Money quote:

Inhibition of transgenic COX-2 activity by feeding the specific COX-2 inhibitor valdecoxib suppressed the development of alopecia, indicating that COX-2-mediated prostaglandin synthesis is involved in hair follicle biology.

 

[bushbush]

Are you entirely sure about this, i.e., that PGD2 is also what sends hair follicles into telogen in healthy humans? Cause when googling "hair telogen pgd 2", the only things showing up are referring to Cotsarelis' paper. Can't find any other primary source for that.

...Nonetheless, a primary source for this is really required before we assume this as a fact.

Interesting off-topic fact (source: Wikipedia)

A peer reviewed paper in a high quality journal is a primary source. Wikipedia is not.

 

[benjt]

Sidenote: Who/What determines what a high quality journal is? Acceptance rate? Citation rate? Young scientists - depending on their field - often don't get published with original, unorthodox research in top notch publications.

What I meant was that I did not find the passage in Cotsarelis' paper saying that PGD2 is involved in natural hair cycling, but instead only people deducing that from his paper. It may be there, it may not, but currently I don't have access to a device that can properly display PDFs, so no way for me of checking.

Regarding wikipedia: Yes, I did not bother to dig up a primary source for a one-sentence statement. And I don't put references for every statement that I make here, neither does anyone else.

So, if you wanna help, dig up a passage. Prove or disprove me. But saying "hey, your source suxx lol" is useless spam.

 

[bushbush]

Sidenote: Who/What determines what a high quality journal is? Acceptance rate? Citation rate? Young scientists - depending on their field - often don't get published with original, unorthodox research in top notch publications.

Citation rate is irrelevant. Acceptance rate - to a certain extent, but not directly, this goes hand in hand with a rigorous peer review process that weeds out lower quality submissions. Would you trust a journal that does not check the validity of the science authors report?

What I meant was that I did not find the passage in Cotsarelis' paper saying that PGD2 is involved in natural hair cycling, but instead only people deducing that from his paper.

It is well covered throughout the paper.

So, if you wanna help, dig up a passage. Prove or disprove me. But saying "hey, your source suxx lol" is useless spam.

I was merely highlighting that on one hand your post seemed dismissive of a genuine piece of scientific literature, while crediting Wikipedia on the other.

 

[princessRambo]

@benjt, you are right, prostaglandins play a role in hair cycle, a major role at that. What you will find in the Cots study is not that PGD2 is only expressed in balding, but that it is overly expressed. When he analyzed (isn't this a weird thing to say? "he a***-yzed"?) bald vs non balding he found that PGD2 was 4-11 fold greater in men with Androgenetic Alopecia. In non balding scalp at any given time about 2/3 or more hair are in anagen, while 1/3 or less are in telogen at any given time (citation and exact numbers needed . That 1/3 or less being in telogen coincides with the normal level of PGD2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319975/

During normal follicle cycling in mice, Ptgds and PGD2 levels increase immediately preceding the regression phase, suggesting an inhibitory effect on hair growth.

 

[benjt]

Fred, nobody cares what you think. You're not contributing but only discrediting other people based on your own believes instead of giving sources. Seems to be your biggest hobby all over these forums. If you have nothing to contribute, shut up.

@the others: the big question is then what leads to PGD2 being elevated so much. Maybe it's possible to establish a chain of events here. The last source that I posted establishes a correlation between COX-2 and baldness in mice. As we know, COX-2 is related to PGD-2 formation. What can lead to COX-2 being elevated? Or is it something else leading to PGD2 being expressed way too high (immune reaction against DHT being one major candidate here)? Is there maybe a connection between COX-2 and DHT?

 

[ganonford]

Broscience.

lol... at least they are trying doing everything they can with whichever little they have...

Why are you doing in here anyway?... shouldn't you be on your "fat girls don't love me because I'm bald" kind of threads you love so much?...

Crawl back to the "impact of hair loss" section of this forum, you're way much more "productive" over there...

 

[bushbush]

@the others: the big question is then what leads to PGD2 being elevated so much.

The transcription (and presumably translation) of the enzyme that produces PGD2 (Ptgds) is influenced by androgen levels. The PGD2 mediated process could be downstream from the same cascade of events DHT is known to be involved with (to my knowledge a direct link (between DHT and PGD2) has not been proven yet but the role of sex hormones is suggested by Garza et al.,)

 

[benjt]

Can you elaborate a bit on this and provide the source?

There's also the possible pathway of DHT inhibiting BAT growth and sustaining.

 

[bushbush]

Can you elaborate a bit on this and provide the source?

There's also the possible pathway of DHT inhibiting BAT growth and sustaining.

It is mentioned in the discussion of 'Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Hair Growth and Is Elevated in Bald Scalp of Men with Androgenetic Alopecia' Garza et al., 2012

Direct link: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/dermatology/news/2012_stm_garza.pdf one of the best papers you can read on the subject imo.

 

[ganonford]

Look at my join date, now look at yours. I've seen it all, coming and going. I'm just going to wait until you all admit that your debates here were useless.

I don't want to go off-topic or create another war... so I will just say this, and that's it...

Does it matter when did you started? I have been browsing this forum for years. You may have nine hundred post... so what?... like 99 percent of those useless post are nothing but you crying your bitter soul all around the most ´pathetic and disgusting threads this forum has to offer...

All your imput equals cero. Crying, complaining, condolence towards those as miserable as you... whatever...

 

[princessRambo]

Alright, I am going to document with different pictures my hair loss journey.

First, my genetic makeup, I am bi-racial african-american/white, so my hair phenotype is the crazy afro a la beyonce or lenny kravitz, kind of like that when it used to grow crazy:

As far as hairline goes, it is very similar to Kobe Bryant's, in fact, it is almost identical, very high, never receded, just thinned out of nowhere (like kobe did as well):

Brothers, dad and my son all have the same high hairline. So that gives you a little picture of how my hair and hairline looked pre-balding.

Here is my hairline in my high teens:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/smhlvh3k3hns8oa/beforeBalding2.jpg



Here is my crazy afro all growned out (note, these photos are very old, so quality may not be the best, and some of them are actually scans of printouts as fancy digital cams weren't a commodity back in the days .


https://www.dropbox.com/s/70xg5skn3pnyli3/afroBeforeBalding.jpg


The above is the last afro I could successfully pull, with every subsequent hair cycle, the top kept getting thinner and thinner. You can clearly see in the picture below that the top is noticeably thinner, and it kept going.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lzic6e56p6juikk/BaldingGettingObvious2.jpg

Below, I cut my hair because the afro wasn't fooling anyone anymore ;(. You can see the sides already thicker and growing way faster than the top.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fqbie9ghsoz78j5/BaldingMoreShowingSidesLongerThanTop2.jpg

Below, as a kept shaving my head, bald patches can be seen getting obvious, the top is growing as a snails pace. Look at dat shiny reflection on top :woot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emu2uox5ong6kxj/baldingShowingMore.jpg

In the picture below, I am totally fcked!! the top will simply not grow past half an inch, even waiting a whole year, most hair are thin an vellus like with no dark pigment at all, the hair on top will simply not grow, period.



ALL IMAGES BELOW ARE are between august and september, I started treating my hair exactly feb15, never used finasteride, started minoxidil the first week of august after the dermaroller thing started, so my regrowth can't be due to minoxidil either (though the compounding effect with dermarolling is showing good things so far).

Before I started treatment, I only had to trim the sides every week or so to get rid of the annoying horseshoe pattern, the top not growing no matter what, I didn't need to shave it.

Around the end of June the top kept growing darker, terminal looking hair slowly, so I had to start trimming both sides and top to have something cosmetically decent.


This is after I started dermarolling, minoxidil can clearly be seen dried around the hairline, it also makes my scalp and hair look whitish.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/15olt9ga542apyb/another.jpg

Below is grown slightly, you see the top is still composed of non-fully pigmented terminal hair, but it is definitely semi-terminal and grows at a little faster rate, nowhere near how fast the sides grow though

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jl61we456eh0sro/last.jpg

Below is a clearer view of the top directly under light, close up look with hair cut very short, you can see the sides still way thicker than the top, semi terminal and few patches of terminal hair can be seen all over, what you can't see is the thousands of thin/vellus looking peach fuzz all over. What is also happening is that the scalp is getting thicker and tiny black hair follicles ready to sprout are all over seems to be spreading all over the top and that is changing the texture of the scalp



Below is the longest I have grown it so far, lighting isn't the best though, top still look thin compared to the sides, but I came from literally nothing, so I can't be complaining, darn it, the forum only allows attaching 8 picture per post, so I am attaching this a different way:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/28smibu8rx3eqvc/grownedSlightly.jpg

Scalp can still be seen through the top because of not having fully terminal hair all over. I wasn't going to post anything till around the january timeframe because I wanted to assess how effective the derma rolling works (started early august). Time will tell but I am happy so far. I came from nearly a norwood 7, I say nearly because random peach fuzz would still grow half an inch but the growth was stunted. Am I happy? heck yes, but I think I can improve to the point of full recovery with time. What I noticed so far is that my balding is going away exactly in reverse order. What I attribute most my success also is consistency.

This is the major problem with most people in my opinion. They will try every single treatment in the world as soon as they hear something good about it. They jump from topical to topical every month or so and never consistent with anything. They will quickly abandon an existing treatment that maybe doing incredible things (not yet noticeable) as soon as they read a post from some random dude on the internet claiming they have been on the same treatment since they were in their mother's womb and it didn't do $hit for them.

I think a lot of things work given adequate consistency, heck, I think even vigorously scratching your head with your nail might give you some results if you are consistent enough (I think odabalk or someone else mentioned that is what a friend of theirs does, this was months back early in this thread). My point is, treat your hair or do nothing, don't be wishy washy in what you are doing, pick something smart and be consistent:

I know what you have done, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot. But since you are lukewarm and not hot or cold, I'm going to spit you out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:15-16

 

[squeegee]

Alright, I am going to document with different pictures my hair loss journey.

First, my genetic makeup, I am bi-racial african-american/white, so my hair phenotype is the crazy afro a la beyonce or lenny kravitz, kind of like that when it used to grow crazy:


As far as hairline goes, it is very similar to Kobe Bryant's, in fact, it is almost identical, very high, never receded, just thinned out of nowhere (like kobe did as well):

Brothers, dad and my son all have the same high hairline. So that gives you a little picture of how my hair and hairline looked pre-balding.

Here is my hairline in my high teens:


Here is my crazy afro all growned out (note, these photos are very old, so quality may not be the best, and some of them are actually scans of printouts as fancy digital cams weren't a commodity back in the days .


The above is the last afro I could successfully pull, with every subsequent hair cycle, the top kept getting thinner and thinner. You can clearly see in the picture below that the top is noticeably thinner, and it kept going.


Below, I cut my hair because the afro wasn't fooling anyone anymore ;(. You can see the sides already thicker and growing way faster than the top.


Below, as a kept shaving my head, bald patches can be seen getting obvious, the top is growing as a snails pace. Look at dat shiny reflection on top :woot:


In the picture below, I am totally fcked!! the top will simply not grow past half an inch, even waiting a whole year, most hair are thin an vellus like with no dark pigment at all, the hair on top will simply not grow, period.



ALL IMAGES BELOW ARE are between august and september, I started treating my hair exactly feb15, never used finasteride, started minoxidil the first week of august after the dermaroller thing started, so my regrowth can't be due to minoxidil either (though the compounding effect with dermarolling is showing good things so far).

Before I started treatment, I only had to trim the sides every week or so to get rid of the annoying horseshoe pattern, the top not growing no matter what, I didn't need to shave it.

Around the end of June the top kept growing darker, terminal looking hair slowly, so I had to start trimming both sides and top to have something cosmetically decent.


This is after I started dermarolling, minoxidil can clearly be seen dried around the hairline, it also makes my scalp and hair look whitish.


Below is grown slightly, you see the top is still composed of non-fully pigmented terminal hair, but it is definitely semi-terminal and grows at a little faster rate, nowhere near how fast the sides grow though


Below is a clearer view of the top directly under light, close up look with hair cut very short, you can see the sides still way thicker than the top, semi terminal and few patches of terminal hair can be seen all over, what you can't see is the thousands of thin/vellus looking peach fuzz all over. What is also happening is that the scalp is getting thicker and tiny black hair follicles ready to sprout are all over seems to be spreading all over the top and that is changing the texture of the scalp


Below is the longest I have grown it so far, lighting isn't the best though, top still look thin compared to the sides, but I came from literally nothing, so I can't be complaining, darn it, the forum only allows attaching 8 picture per post, so I am attaching this a different way:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/28smibu8rx3eqvc/grownedSlightly.jpg

Scalp can still be seen through the top because of not having fully terminal hair all over. I wasn't going to post anything till around the january timeframe because I wanted to assess how effective the derma rolling works (started early august). Time will tell but I am happy so far. I came from nearly a norwood 7, I say nearly because random peach fuzz would still grow half an inch but the growth was stunted. Am I happy? heck yes, but I think I can improve to the point of full recovery with time. What I noticed so far is that my balding is going away exactly in reverse order. What I attribute most my success also is consistency.

This is the major problem with most people in my opinion. They will try every single treatment in the world as soon as they hear something good about it. They jump from topical to topical every month or so and never consistent with anything. They will quickly abandon an existing treatment that maybe doing incredible things (not yet noticeable) as soon as they read a post from some random dude on the internet claiming they have been on the same treatment since they were in their mother's womb and it didn't do $hit for them.

I think a lot of things work given adequate consistency, heck, I think even vigorously scratching your head with your nail might give you some results if you are consistent enough (I think odabalk or someone else mentioned that is what a friend of theirs does, this was months back early in this thread). My point is, treat your hair or do nothing, don't be wishy washy in what you are doing, pick something smart and be consistent:

Revelation 3:15-16

Princess..most of your attachments don't work. (Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator) BTW great results.. But having hair remaining help, you can clearly see your hairline even in the worst pictures.. you were not slick bald with no follicles showing. but yeah good stuff!unk: Derma wounding will probably help the thickening part for sure.

 

[princessRambo]

I fixed it... added direct links from dropbox, the attachment system here sucks major balls...

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Yeah, most attachment did not work.
But the two pics that did work show amazing results.

Congrants, Rambo.

Gives a diffuse thinner like myself hope that rolling will work out eventually.

 

[squeegee]

I fixed it... added direct links from dropbox, the attachment system here sucks major balls...

totally!!

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Yeah, most attachment did not work.
But the two pics that did work show amazing results.

Congrants, Rambo.

Gives a diffuse thinner like myself hope that rolling will work out eventually.

Diffuse thinner are lucky SOB. They mostly have the best success.. because everything is weakened, not lost.

this is a true NW7..