New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[nextlevel]

What's the reason behind applying minoxidil only 24 hours after dermarolling session, why can't you apply it the same day. I understand why they waited 24 hours in the study, so if they saw results from derma rolling no one could say that it was because of increased minoxidil absorption. I also know that study is about wounding and not increasing minoxidil absorption, but is it a bad idea to apply minoxidil right after derma rolling? This way you get benefits from derma rolling and increased minoxidil absorption at once.

 

[odalbak]

What's the reason behind applying minoxidil only 24 hours after dermarolling session, why can't you apply it the same day. I understand why they waited 24 hours in the study, so if they saw results from derma rolling no one could say that it was because of increased minoxidil absorption. I also know that study is about wounding and not increasing minoxidil absorption, but is it a bad idea to apply minoxidil right after derma rolling? This way you get benefits from derma rolling and increased minoxidil absorption at once.

minoxidil is a vasodilator that can be dangerous for the heart if too much is absorbed systemically at once. WOunding increases absorption. Waiting 24 hours is meant to reduce the risks of over absorption.

 

[Chromeo]

Thanks for the Cet advice, I had seen in every forum that they mix it with PG. I guess I made the mistake today of applying it at the same time. One last thing, I really just winged it when applying, I just put enough until my scalp was covered, can that be dangerous? I think I felt some feeling of vibrations if that means anything.

I think that's fine, man. I applied it all over the scalp every day & I never had a problem with it. One thing I would say, I had an unusual increase in nightmares during the first two or three weeks of applying Cet. Really weird phenomenon, but apparently it's a possible. After that initital period, it was plain sailing.

 

[squeegee]

My head looks like a beated up beet right now. Blood everywhere. Derma roller 3.0mm all in. My temple can't barely bleed even with full pressure. Maybe this why they are bald in the first place?? I need a ****load of passes to make them bleed compared to the rest of my pumpkin. Interesting..

 

[cthulhu2.0]

This study worries me:
http://www.woundsinternational.com/news/wound-healing-process-may-increase-risk-of-skin-cancer

 

[squeegee]

This study worries me:
http://www.woundsinternational.com/news/wound-healing-process-may-increase-risk-of-skin-cancer

Male Pattern Baldness is a form of cancer anyways!

 

[DesperateOne]

I think that's fine, man. I applied it all over the scalp every day & I never had a problem with it. One thing I would say, I had an unusual increase in nightmares during the first two or three weeks of applying Cet. Really weird phenomenon, but apparently it's a possible. After that initital period, it was plain sailing.

Lol, that is a weird side effect, so you're applying Cet in the morning and then waiting like 4 hours before you apply minoxidil? How sure are you that Cet in water will absorb?

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My head looks like a beated up beet right now. Blood everywhere. Derma roller 3.0mm all in. My temple can't barely bleed even with full pressure. Maybe this why they are bald in the first place?? I need a ****load of passes to make them bleed compared to the rest of my pumpkin. Interesting..

I also noticed this as well, I have to do more passes on the front because that's where this disease has attacked me the hardest. Squeegee, have you been massaging your scalp like some other people? I know Rambo pointed out that it is basically the same thing, like the patent said, you can wound either by derma rolling and by friction. So maybe we should do both, first the massage, then the rolling?

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Male Pattern Baldness is a form of cancer anyways!

Exactly, this is worse, at least with cancer you have an excuse to shave your head and people will look like morons if they make fun of you.

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What's the reason behind applying minoxidil only 24 hours after dermarolling session, why can't you apply it the same day. I understand why they waited 24 hours in the study, so if they saw results from derma rolling no one could say that it was because of increased minoxidil absorption. I also know that study is about wounding and not increasing minoxidil absorption, but is it a bad idea to apply minoxidil right after derma rolling? This way you get benefits from derma rolling and increased minoxidil absorption at once.

One thing that has been mentioned here and that you should be concerned with is that you might get some brown bags under your eyes. I noticed a little of it and well I have stopped putting the minoxidil soon after the rolling, yesterday I waited for about 14 hours after the rolling session.

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This is a question for anyone out there. So I decided to go to gym again and well I have been going for about a month and have gained some muscle and I don't know if it also caused some hair loss?
I also want to know if I am able to use diet pills, and maybe some sort of derivative of creatine. Do you guys think that it will affect things? Spencer once mentioned that creatine may cause some problems but he said he wan't sure. I just want to use the pills for about 2 months.

 

[jason5]

This study worries me:
http://www.woundsinternational.com/news/wound-healing-process-may-increase-risk-of-skin-cancer

Looks like avoiding the sun is critical during healing.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

Looks like avoiding the sun is critical during healing.

Yes, I'm really hoping we aren't damaging the skin too much. I recalled at the end of the study them mentioning that full thickness wounds are the main cause for these tumor producing cells but I don't believe micro needling constitutes full thickness wounding. Anybody have any info on this?

 

[Armando Jose]

I wish it was that easy. And if it really was that easy, minoxidil should regrow hair all over your head. But it doesn't. The problem is that fibrosis kills BAT (brown adipose tissue). BAT is found in the subcutis and is responsible for angiogenesis - the creation of small blood vessels for nutrient supply. And that's the problem. As fibrosis progresses, the fibrotic tissue does not only squeeze follicles until they can no longer push out no hair, the destroyed BAT results in a loss of local blood vessels, depriving follicles of blood supply. I guess this is why constant minoxidil is required to maintain hair - it takes over the job of the otherwise nonexistant blood vessels (cause dead cause BAT dead) by ensuring blood supply. Only a guess though, but I guess it isnt so far off and makes sense in a way.
And that's also why super's doctor says we need to go deep enough to draw blood: this is obviously where blood vessels are, so the area where we need tissue (i.e.: BAT) regeneration. Makes sense to me at least. So we need not only get tissue regeneration in the deeper part of the dermis (to beat fibrosis directly around the follicle), but also at BAT level in the subcutis.


I am fairly convinced of DHT being the trigger (make no mistake: not the cause) of fibrosis. There is essentially a local wrongful auto-immune reaction to DHT (which is, by the way, also produced locally around follicles). The immune system sends macrophages and triggers chronic inflammation. The problem is that chronic inflammation leads to fibrosis. There you got your chain of events.


Definitely worth a shot. I guess that the oils' main help in our cause is not the collagen synthesis, but that they're rich in omega 3 fatty acids, which - surprise - are exactly what BAT is made of.


Exactly. And that's really what we want. Fibrotic is hard. Bald scalp is fibrotic. Non-bald scalp is not fibrotic, thus soft. My hope is that the softness induced through massages + rolling will create conditions for regrowth (e.g. cause it breaks up fibrotic collagen).

Good link about fibrosis, hairloss and plants

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039332
[h=1]Ursolic Acid Increases Skeletal Muscle and Brown Fat and Decreases Diet-Induced Obesity, Glucose Intolerance and Fatty Liver Disease[/h]

http://www.ursolicacid.com/botanical.htm
Pepermint, oregano. thyme, lavander contains ursolic acid

 

[Breaking Bald]

So again, is there a reason as to why they only posted two sets of pictures for the DR study??? Does that not concern anybody?

 

[benjt]

Journal (or conference) publications usually have a very tight page limit. I myself often have to cut out quite a lot of stuff I consider important to conform with submission and publication rules. This may be the reason why there are only so few photos included in the study.
Didn't someone have contact via email with some authors of the study? Maybe that person could request more evaluation photos?

Regarding the stiff/tight scalp issue: Now it's already four people reporting the same thing - squeegee, TNTS, opti and me. We might really be on to something.

I have another possible explanation for us drawing less blood and having less pain: (Soft) collagen production might've kicked in. Derma rolling is referred to by some people as "collagen induction therapy" for a reason. Our soft collagen layer might just be getting thicker. If that's of any use to us, I don't know... At least all of us got the observation that the scalp tissue got softer and that is probably a good thing, cause that's what's apparently different between bald and non-bald scalp skin.

 

[odalbak]

Now it's already four people reporting the same thing - squeegee, TNTS, opti and me.

Same thing for me. Temples and vertex. And inserting needles feels also more difficult. Demands more force. I could also add that whatever deep rolling I do I can't get as much blood on my whole scalp as Hellouser or whoever it was that posted a pic with his scalp totally covered with blood, so I guess the advancement of fibrosis is higher in me than many or most guys here. I'm NW3 vertex.

 

[benjt]

I finally did some in-depth research as to scalp skin thickness. The source is the well cited paper THE THICKNESS OF HUMAN SCALP: NORMAL AND BALD.

They offer value ranges which I wrote down for males:
Epidermis - min: 0.035 mm, max: 0.07 mm
Dermis - min: 0.6 mm, max: 1.6 mm
Subcutis/Hypodermis - min: 1.15 mm, max: 1.9 mm

So, let's make the assumption that we want to hit at least the lowest layer of the dermis - where the follicles are - to damage the perifollicular fibrosis (and maybe even the follicle?) and have new tissue formed there. Then, if we add up the minimum values which probably describe completely bald areas, we get 0.635 mm. As I said, this is the absolute minimum and probably only applies if the areas is 100% bald.
If we make the assumption that we want to trigger regrowth of BAT in the subcutis (let's say, we want to penetrate the subcutis till the middle), then we need needles of at least 1.21 mm absolute minimum.

For those that want to be on the safe side and by no means go any further than the subcutis (which makes sense, cause we don't want to damage the galea), then we should not get needles above 1.785 mm (this is the depth where the subcutis ends and the galea begins, in completely bald areas).

So, effectively, even if your scalp is the thinnest possible, you will not penetrate deep enough to hit the galea unless your needles are longer than 1.785 mm. Thus, a 1.5 mm roller should be 100% safe to use. If we want to hit the lowest levels of the dermis, we need at least 0.6 mm in completely bald areas, and if we want to trigger BAT regrowth, we need at least 1.21 mm.
These values will of course differ for everyone and depend on your age and the progress of your Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness. In any case, acc. to the study linked above, you will not damage anything by using a 1.5 mm roller. And most likely, you will not have significantly deep needles if you use anything shorter than 0.7 mm.

My advice would be to use 1.5 mm. It's still completely safe no matter how thin your skin (I repeat: the absolut minimum thickness measured by the authors of above paper in 100% bald areas is 1.785 mm), and you make sure that you hit deep enough to kill both perifollicular fibrosis, and also hit the subcutis for BAT regeneration.
By the way: These values also mean that you can actually damage your galea if you go for 2.0 mm or longer if you roll in areas that are 100% bald. Does not mean that you necessarily will, cause even with baldness skin thickness will differ from individual to individual. Nonetheless, with 2.0 mm or longer, there's at least a chance you inflict deep damage. Go for 1.5 mm. Safe to use in any case, and definitely long enough to go subcutis deep.


I also advice everybody interested in the science to take a look at the values for the subcutis (hypodermis) in the paper from above. The values for males vs. females differ the most for the subcutis. This hints at the subcutis (and thus BAT) playing a huge role here, in my opinion.

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Same thing for me. Temples and vertex. And inserting needles feels also more difficult. Demands more force. I could also add that whatever deep rolling I do I can't get as much blood as Hellouser or whoever posted a pic with his scalp totally covered with blood, so I guess the advancement of fibrosis is higher in me than many or most guys here. I'm NW3 vertex.

There is only an indirect correlation between fibrosis and blood here. 100% of blood comes from the subcutis/hypodermis (or deeper, if you do damage below that which I'd not advise). The balder you are, the more fibrosis, and the thinner your upper skin layers, so you will more easily hit the subcutis where the blood vessels are.

Blood drawing depends 100% on whether you reach the subcutis when rolling, as there is simply no blood in dermis and epidermis. Fibrosis doesnt really matter directly here.

My scalp also looked like that of hellouser's the first three times that I rolled, but by now it's completely impossible for me to draw that much blood no matter how much pressure I apply. I hope the reason for that is tissue regeneration, thus adding thickness to my scalp skin where I rolled.

 

[odalbak]

I thought of reading this paper but I don't have much time these days. So thanks for this benjt.

I reckon there's a difference between thicknesses in the scalp as they're measured with no physical pressure on it and what happens when I dermaroll my scalp and push the needles all the way: my skin, as fibrotic as it can be, still gets compressed, and therefore temporarily thinner, by the pressure of the base of the roller.

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I guess that the oils' main help in our cause is not the collagen synthesis, but that they're rich in omega 3 fatty acids, which - surprise - are exactly what BAT is made of.

Omega 3 is called essential fatty acid because it can't be made by the human body as opposed to other nutrients. We need to get it from food sources or supplements. And in the modern context it's become harder to get it. One could say that modern diet is a contributor to male pattern baldness.

 

[opti]

Omega 3 is called essential fatty acid because it can't be made by the human body as opposed to other nutrients. We need to get it from food sources or supplements. And in the modern context it's become harder to get it. One could say that modern diet is a contributor to male pattern baldness.

i wouldnt say that...you can eat as much essential fatty acids like u want but if there is no blod flow to the follices it wont help in any way. give the hair follices the nutrition topically is maybe the way to go

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Same thing for me. Temples and vertex. And inserting needles feels also more difficult. Demands more force. I could also add that whatever deep rolling I do I can't get as much blood on my whole scalp as Hellouser or whoever it was that posted a pic with his scalp totally covered with blood, so I guess the advancement of fibrosis is higher in me than many or most guys here. I'm NW3 vertex.

Just thinking out loud here:
Couldn't it just be the needles of your roller getting dull?

Have you changed roller since beginning rolling?

 

[benjt]

Well, only rolled 5 times in total up until now. I don't think the needles would become this dull after just 5 sessions.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Well, only rolled 5 times in total up until now. I don't think the needles would become this dull after just 5 sessions.

I think the longer needled ones can go dull that fast, yes.

I believe that data was posted recently in this thread?
Or maybe I read it in another forum. I was surprised they could go dull this fast.

Also, I think we apply much more pressure during rolling than women do when they (gently) roll their face where no bleeding occurs. I think us using so much pressure will contribute to even quicker dulling.

Obviously, if you only roll your temples or whatever, then it won't go dull after a few rolls. But if you roll the entire galea area (as I do), then dulling will go faster.

 

[mas80]

I think the longer needled ones can go dull that fast, yes.

I believe that data was posted recently in this thread?
Or maybe I read it in another forum. I was surprised they could go dull this fast.

Also, I think we apply much more pressure during rolling than women do when they (gently) roll their face where no bleeding occurs. I think us using so much pressure will contribute to even quicker dulling.

Obviously, if you only roll your temples or whatever, then it won't go dull after a few rolls. But if you roll the entire galea area (as I do), then dulling will go faster.

That was my thought too, but according to this the needle size has nothing to do with how fast the needles go dull.

From owndoc.com http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolli...to-put-you-off-'homerolling'/msg3990/#msg3990

"The needle length is irrelevant for the speed of blunting, since only the very tip blunts. So they contradict themselves when they say that needles blunt quickly when the roller is used multiple times. "